Meeting transcript
Board of Assessment Appeals - Appeals Hearing
February 19, 2022 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
Okay.
Okay, got it. I'll call the meeting to order at 10:06. And I have a flag here and we can pledge allegiance to the flag. Can you see it. I pledge allegiance to the flag, United States Of America, and to the Republic, which stands one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice
for Okay. I am the only member of public is our town attorney. This is public speak if you'd like to say anything.
Not really, I'm just here to observe the hearing and to be here for you or any members of the board if they have any questions. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Now Daniel will proceed to your appeal.
Thank you, Georgia, for the board members for allowing me to participate with Zoom. Obviously, I'm outside of Connecticut, so I appreciate the chance to present using this format. Just an update. I did have to refile for two reasons. One, had gotten to list someone to go through the house if the board members wanted to be able to go to the house. So I've used my sister-in-law, Mary Anne Roy, on the newest sheet. She signed for it and that went in through Carol Lee. That was the update. The update, the other, addition to the update that I provided was a certified appraisal I had conducted on my house after doing some more research looking at the general statue and what court accepts in this process.
It really comes down to a certified appraisal to be the only way to determine a fair market value. So I changed my sheet to say that I'm submitting that versus just my analysis on what I believe was a fair market value based on that being conducted. And I'll get to that towards the end on picking Linda Fortin and going through that from a process end. Excuse me.
Could I interject myself here? The law requires all witnesses to be sworn. If you would like. You're right. If you'd like, I could administer the oath but that's up to you. I think it's on the form but I'm not sure. Like, I can do it. I I I was the judge so I think I know it by heart.
It is on the form, Dennis. It says I do hereby I'll defer to the chairman.
I do hereby declare under penalty of false statement that the above statement, according to the best of my knowledge, remembrance and belief is a true statement. And he did sign it. So if you wanna say
I do again, Dan. I do. For the recording, I do. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Good reminder. Okay, continue down.
Okay, so that was the updated appeals form to to add an agent in case you wanted to go through the home and to to really just record
The appraisal that I had conducted through a certified licensed appraiser in the state of Connecticut.
She lives in Hebron, has done it for forty years, essentially has represented both towns and individuals in appraisal matters, divorces, different situations, processes like this, etc. He also was involved five years ago in 2016 representing appraisal for people came under the same process. That's why I chose her and that's going to be kind of the endpoint I come through with appeal process. My analysis, which I can share in a minute from a write up, first I wrote in the background of us owning the property at 332 Lake Road. We purchased an existing house at the time, bought it back in 2013, rented it for a while. I was still working with the plans once I retired, we would remove the existing structure rebuild went through all the process to do that. House was torn down in 2017. No house there pretty much through 2018 while we constructed and then we got occupancy beginning of twenty nineteen.
At that point, there was no real change to the appraisal, even when there was no house there just went through, but we were notified once we moved in that there would be a walk through for the house and a revalidation of the property for the town. That was noted in the 2020 valuation for the property. That's where John came through and did an inspection of the house. I also noted in the write up at that point we heard that the town was doing the revaluation for the 2021. Got a notice to be available to have the house to expect again. I called John saying we're only there less than six months a year. We'll not be around. Couldn't understand why if it was just done. And John said, yeah, looking at the notes, it is a new build. There is not going to be much change unless you made any additions, which we had not. And essentially said it would be just adjusted for market value, you know, what's been happening in that process. So I didn't expect a lot of increase, but obviously when the increase came in, it was 82%
total increase from 2020 to 2021. 82% seem totally disproportionate to even knowing some of the sales that have occurred. So I started researching that from the system. My first process or my first step through the process was to ask for a hearing with Vision Government Services, which is what the town sends you to if you have questions on what came out. I had a scheduled call with a woman named Mimi Mackie from government services on December 6 in the morning. Walked through a bunch of questions that I had. There was a number of them that she could not answer, but she said she would get additional information get back to me. That afternoon we talked again. She had gotten some more information and then the following day a little bit more information after talking to John in the town from the assessment end
and primarily some of the things I was focusing on is why so much of an increase in some of the disparity that I saw in around especially the lake properties. With that, when I wrote my appeals, I wanted to address three aspects that I saw. First, the land values and how much they had increased. Just the land value alone had gone up 71% just for the what was assessed to my point four one acres. That was a pretty large increase to me for even if you look at land values and then later I'll talk about it from an appraisal process.
But seeing that value increase, I also started looking with my neighbors and different properties around the lake and how that was being treated. I had asked Mimi specifically in regards to the land. I said it's my understanding that when the town goes through this process and working with Richmond Government Services you're going to come up with some time of overall valuation for land to be used essentially equal across properties and she said yes. This was one of the clarifying questions I had to ask her. I said what was that value that was established for the process for 2021 for the town of Andover and she said well for the main portion of the town for land per acre was $51,000 and that was a 24% decrease from the last time we it was done as a bulk. The benefit was to the town on land values going down 24%. In the area of the lake with land properties because of some of the sales both on lots and on houses going up, it increased. I asked her what was the new figure then for the values of land around Andover Lake. That was one of the things she had to get back to me. That afternoon she called me back she said she had talked to John.
The previous time land value was three times the remaining land in the town. This time under this process, it had gone up 5.25%. So she said if you look at that, the 51,000 for an acre lot valuation would be 5.25, which is 200 and I have it in the sheet, like $60,000 And I said, Okay, if I have point four one acres, I wouldn't be paying that type of value of land. She said it's proportional but not directly proportional and can have deductions. I asked what would be the deductions and that's the other area she had to get back to me which she called back and she said mainly there's three that applied on the land around the lake. One was the grade of the land, slope of the land, like whether it's level, whether it's steep, you know, whether you have access to it, you have to park on the road. Other areas was if it gets flooded or is non usable because it's low and it's wetland that can be deducted and then the third that she noted that I had in my notes was foot traffic both by Alpolo, the Lake Association, and with like if you have public access. So if you have someone having a lot of foot traffic like the trail that goes around the lake that can be deducted.
I asked what would be an increase and she said she didn't get any value for an increase. When they established that that's what they can use systematically. So I then start putting out some disparities, two lots over next to me. I have what's called a Double Lake lot when it was originally built on the 0.41. There's one that's a four and the value of that land in the system that's in my report I'll call up here and share in a minute was twice the land less value of land. I asked her how that particular one because she was she was on the system when I was on the phone with her and she looked at that she said there must be a disparity that I can put in a note and have that looked at. So everything I was challenging she was taking notes that she would run back through bottom after I asked all the questions
with the hearing with government vision services no changes were made so I never got any response on why a 0.82 lot two houses over to me the left to my 0.41 was actually less value on land not even considering the house. She thought it was a disparity from you know speaking on behalf of the company She said that would be reviewed more from John and the appraisal department on from a consistency. When I started looking at the land around the lake, I also started expanding it based on her comment that it went down everywhere in the town as a benefit and how that could be because overall land values shouldn't have decreased. Now later Linda Fortin explained to me the appraiser, the certified appraiser brought in. Land value being appraised by a certified appraiser as an open lot compared to a house being on a lot is like apples and oranges. What she meant by that is if you take actual sales of property, just lots. You can do a comparison and appraisal process what's a lot of value to one lot to the other because it hasn't been touched. Once you build on it that lot really becomes consistent to whatever was the decision with the house. So like back when I bought the house in 2013
for 240,000 tearing it down, you could say I pretty much just bought it for the lot because I didn't want the house. But most of the times when appraisal looks at land value, unless it's a standing lot that is more desirable, it can be used in any way. Whoever buys it can say I want a house here, want it this way, I want to modify, I want to landscape it. The actual value when you do comparisons is lot to lot being empty. Once you start putting houses on it, trying to come up with that value, the reason that
government services stuff tries to put an overall picture of what it should be if it's not a strike. But I ask this question. I have bought plenty of raw acreage to build houses. I've gone into development. I've built four houses over my lifespan. When I bought a lot that was consistent within a development, whether the houses were in or going to be put in, the larger the lot, the more value it had. Both in real estate for actual market value and two from a tax situation. So an example, if I went into a development that had one acre lot and the next to it was a two acre lot, I wouldn't expect the same sale price listed on a bank lot to purchase.
It's not always a direct double one acre and two acres you get a look at it and the conditions that were listed for Andover Lake like lowlands. I bought a piece of land to build on in Fremont, New Hampshire in a development that can't range anywhere from three acres to 15 acre house lots. I bought a seven and a half acre lot. Four four acres of that seven and a half was in wetland, So it's not usable. And so I knew the price going in was going to be lower if I chose to build on the front end of that property. So when you're looking at land values, it's not always an exact science. However, she agreed when I was talking to Mimi and I talked to Linda, Usually the more the land the value would be proportionally up. So the two tables I'm going to try to share my screen here. Go to my word document. Hold on. Share. Can you see my screen? Yes. We can. Yeah. Okay, so what I tried to do in my analysis when land values everything I just talked through was kind of the proportionality is I tried to levelize or normalize you know what would values of land around the lake which in this area here is all lake proper, then later if you just start looking at acreages in the town and you try to do a comparison of what that would come up per acre lot. The one I was referring to a little a minute ago when I first got on to talk to Mimi, my property is 332 Lake Road, which is the green, the pit number 0.41
acres. It essentially says the town's evaluating your land at three zero one three hundred. That if I did what would be a roughly calculation of an acre, what would that come up per acre at 734. The one that's two houses over right here, 326 is double that. That was an existing four lake lots or or a total of double mine, and it's 300 to $300,200 and so you can see the cost per acre. This is where if you just want to evaluate acreage with existing homes and not lots, what those values were. The disparity is greater when you start looking at when I talked to Mimi and she said they roughly were using a 51,000
per acre, you can see the values that the town set on some of these lots and I tried to take lots that were in subdivisions with kind of executive homes, you know, really good standing level lots, one to two acres within the town that I could could peruse around the system and try to find. And again, there was quite the disparity. So when it comes to land, it really when you step back and look at an analysis like this. The lake is taking a burden of of the cost. In the overall assessment compared to the non and Overlake area that that's number one. Number two that might be pushed proportionally because house sales is what you use for fair market value and property some properties did sell on the lake. The you know the Connecticut statute as I read it for fair market value is supposed to take a look at it what's consistent in talking to lender or as a certified appraiser,
you try to throw highs and lows. An example, if there's a bankruptcy and a court sells a piece of property in a house for well below market, the town shouldn't pivot and say now that's a new market value or someone goes and pays more money than what was listed and it's higher, you can throw out. It's supposed to be a rough average of market value. It's very hard to separate out the land, but to me what this land value pointed out is this disproportionate high to have overall house evaluations total properties around the lake higher than market and higher disproportional than the town. You can go to the next table where I did a comparison is how much did land value increase in the 2021 value to previous years. If you notice on my house in 2015, my land value per the town records 185. It actually dropped 5% to 176,300. But the new value of 301,300 as a comparison is a 68 or a 71% increase between 2015 to '21 or 2020. If you come down on those existing lake properties I show, you can see how much of a variance land value in the system for the town is changed. So you take all the properties, some only went up 20 to 33%, know others, this is the same lake area, same land, the system is showing a very wide disproportionality of value increase for the same existing acreage, same existing lots. We're not talking lots were leveled, totally reconstructed.
These are the same properties that are existing. One of the properties on the lake that's lakefront property actually went down to both years. Don't don't know why when you go to the rest of the town and you pull the same properties I have, you can see the variances that have occurred is all in the negative. That means the benefit of land value going down in properties in Andover that are non lake from 2015 and 2020 now to 2021 had a wide swing. This this particular value. One of the comments my appraiser Linda Fortin had said is land has not gone down. You know if anything land has gone up or maintained. So this this poor personality, even though I'm appealing just one property.
Is significant if you look at it from the overall process this this is where someone with how did this all go down for the entire town look at it and why is the lake so disproportionate to the rest of the town and values of land and then across why is there such a wide swing on land values. So that was my first pitch was the land values does not seem right. Now I want to point out something that occurred. When I first wrote my appeals, my land value was 301,300. When I went to have my appraisal done, my appraiser said, why did you tell me your value of land for the town was 301,000? I said, because that's what it is on my sheet. That's what I got in the mail. That's what vision government service. She says I'm in the system right now and the value of your land is 90,000. On February 4 in the system my property value was changed, went down to 90,000. The difference of 201,000 get transferred over to the house price. Printed out from vision government services on February 4 that sheet showing that my plan. I had the appraisal done noting that
and then last week I went back and looked again and it's back to the next the same value it was before.
I can explain that if you want me to. If you could. When I went in and talked to the assessor to find out about these values of the properties and the lots, he said, unless it's an empty lot, you cannot sell it, the land. So you have to take the whole property as a whole. He said, can lower the price of that land and add it to the price of the house. It'll still be the same. And he showed me and he did it as an example. So that's why it showed up in the system. So it wasn't any kind of, you know, tomfoolery he was doing. He was just showing me how he could lower the value of the land and still have the assessment or the appraisal be the same. That's why it went back to what it was before.
Okay. So he used as an example that he can make land artificial to a pricing. Right. So what it for the board members, what is the process that government Vision Government Services was told to use for consistency of land value for this process?
I don't think there is a consistency. Waterfront property has gone sky high over the years. And it started a number of years back when somebody from New York bought a little tiny house down the street from me and paid, I think it was like 500,000, which normally would have been about 200,000. And from that point on waterfront property just seemed to, you know, get very, very high. And especially on your side, because the water is deeper. And over the years, I've been involved with a lake association for many, many years. And over the years, it's a man made lake and it's naturally wants to return to land because that's what it was before. So the shallow parts of the lake, the sun beats down and it causes growth on the bottom of the lake. And then that growth dies.
And of course then it makes it shallower and this goes over and over and over. And the lake association had talked about trying to dredge out areas of the lake that had been filled in, you know, in different coves and stuff. Where 17 Lakeside Drive is, it's a big beautiful house and it once was on the market for a million dollars, but the waterfront's not good. It's a big piece of property. So there are a number of houses where I think the value is a little lower because it's not an area you can swim in. We have one appeal that claims she can't be charged as waterfront because there's wetlands between her house and the lake. Well, it's not wetlands. It's just it's become very swampy and shallow. So I think probably taking into consideration the fact that over in your area, the water is deep and you can swim there, you can get into a boat, you don't have to drag it through a swamp. And that might have something to do with increasing the value.
That's a pretty wide value from 71 to minus 19 on lakefront properties. All those top are lakefront properties. I can see that you saying, but that was not a condition that Mimi told me could deduct off a land value. The depth of lake in front of your property. What they did said is if your property flooded, which wouldn't allow access, it can be deducted. Or if it was too steep to gain access, but I didn't hear depth of the lake in front of it would change property or land values that much.
I don't know. You've got my house on there and we are three, well, let me put it this way. At the road level, we're level with the road, but we have to go down three layers to get to the water and you can't swim there because it's very shallow and rocky. So That's you have to which property? 117 Lakeside.
Okay. Yeah. My my end on this, Georgette, just to be clear, is that's a pretty wide disparity both on lake properties for value of land and when you compare it from a town end.
True enough, but it's it's a lot more valuable being on the water. The the lake area has always been higher valued than the town because of the fact of the lake. If you're across the street and you, you have, you know, full vision, then you're called lake view. And it's a little cheaper than waterfront, but it's still much more than in town. You put my house somewhere in town, it would go down probably a good 100,000 or more.
Right. But the the the disparity that I I'm seeing is even greater. When Mimi told me the last time the town did this five years ago, lake value land was three times of the property. Now we're saying market conditions. Lake land alone is 5.25. That that distortion compared to other properties in Connecticut. How does that compare? Because there's other lakes like when we get to my appraisal process, there's all lake properties that were chosen just to compare apples to apples. It's hard to compare like you said, take my house and put it somewhere out in Andover. How much the overall value because I bought to be on the lake. I agree to that. I know that's part of the value, but this much of an increase in value is the question I have. John Chipponis on the thirty first in front of the board members said the average value of the lake went up 43% because of market values and all those properties you're talking about. 43 is pretty far off from 82% that I saw as an increase. Well, like I say, he could lower the
price of your land, but it would just be added to the value of Yeah, your and that's why it's going to come down to what the court accepts as a market value per the statute, and that's why I went and paid for that. That's why I went and got an independent one to go to court and be able to say this is what can be accepted. The government vision services numbers will not be accepted. The town would have to do like they did in 2016, pay for an independent appraisal and then look at those numbers compared. And that's why I went out to do that. But let me move. Let me move on Georgia at time. That was why I addressed the land to bring to the board members.
We really need to do the whole property including the house and everything. Correct. Really be. Correct.
So then what I moved into for the second part was square footage price valuations. In my case, I have in living square footage, $1.06 $6.06 and gross $5.02 $0.06 Well, the valuation they told me on that property in the town records would be $5.71 300. If you want to normalize and it's similar to, you know, if you go to build a house and you say I want a three bedroom versus a four bedroom or five bedroom with, like I said, when I bought houses, I've dealt with building houses versus buying houses because you get what you want. But then what you put into it, what you pay for square foot is usually the number you had. What I didn't understand is how the value of my house in proportion to square footage with lakefront property equivalencies was so much higher per square foot. So what this table shows in my house for the square footage you have and what the town saying that the value of the home was
in the living square for it comes out to $3.43 and in the gross square for $1.10. When I compared across other houses, I saw that a lot of quality homes, A quality homes, A plus quality homes, that figures well off. One of the questions I asked the Mimi Mackie is why am I an A plus plus to begin with? What is the process? She explained is that is a standard checklist to use for quality of homes. And essentially you go through the checklist, the towns can choose how much of a scale they want to use. In the case of a scale of a full scale, the upper end, which is where I'm placed, is what she called a customized custom home. She said mainly where these they see those homes are down along the shoreline.
That is when someone gets a customized kitchen versus just getting local to New England granites. They're going to import from Italy marble and put stuff in that's a much higher, higher quality. It's what they want and therefore the market of that house would go up. Knowing when I built my house because it's a budget and I was only going to live there for six years and I and what I paid to build that house, including demolishing the other house in a square footage, there is nowhere that I went beyond standard. And so I really started questioning an A plus plus rating. Then when I compared the houses that I could see physically as I walked around the lake and know some of the quality and some of the ones that sold like 75 Lakeside, the $9.95 that the town points to is a high sale within this process, is only listed as an A, yet during appraisal it is listed as superior quality construction compared to mine listed as good. I then went later into some of the executive homes or what I would call an executive home, larger homes in the town of Andover and nothing got over a B plus. What Mimi explained to me is that sheet is supposed to be referenced to, the only notes that she had is I had cathedral ceilings,
up kitchen with a sink, which is just a farmer's sink, and she didn't know why Mai graded out 20 plus plus. This is another disparity that when you go to look at the quality of homes and in the case when Linda looked at it she can go through the full LMS and do a tour of the home, her own comparison showed I shouldn't be at that type of quality. This is not supposed to be an arbitrary, this looks like it is more backfitted in the algorithm that is used in the system, that if you look at the square footage and you drive it and it flags, the only way it could be graded at that house having that type of price in the market is if it was on a very higher end quality, which mine is not. So the square footage was off and the grade is off. Those are two things that I addressed in my appeal saying at minimum just new houses that were built being listed as an A that are on the lake and looking at it, know, I would have thought I would have come in at an A at best. So I'm not sure how the board looks at these grades being established when it's supposed to use a reference checklist. The fact that Mimi said most towns that there were smaller towns like Andover don't even use the full scale because there's no advantage of having that much property
that has to grade that way.
Could I ask you a question on the appraisal that you got for 75 Lakeside Drive? Where did the word superior come from? Her or
somewhere else? Yeah, so let me call that up. Let me start sharing there. And let me go to
I have it here in front of me, and hers is being Yeah. I'm to I'm trying to bring it up so I can point it out, Georgette. Let me know. See it on the field card, so I don't know where it came from.
Hold on. I gotta find where I have it open. Not there. Not there. Oh, here it is. Share.
It would be like the All right. You Oops. It's the next page, I think. Yeah, try one or two pages more. Hold on. Let me Well, that's fine.
Trying to hold on. I got too many tabs open. Got to find the tab that I have hers open in.
I don't see superior anything here, so I don't know where it came from.
Yeah. Let me let me I gotta find the PDF. There it is. Alright. Let me go back here. Go to share. Hit share. Can you see my screen with the appraisal?
No, I'm seeing you gotta click on that, I think. Well, this is
It says Andover 332 Lake Road appraisal, but it's just a listing. It's not the document itself. Why? Well, it's okay. I mean I'll tell you the page. I'll try to find.
It's only the second or third page on it. Does I it show now? Yeah, that's the first page. Right. Okay.
And what she did is she took this is my property and she took 22475 Lakeside 57 Ames, which is another lakefront property on this page. Go
back down. Go up to the next page before. Right here is superior. Quality superior. I don't I don't know. Because I'm looking at both your field cards and everything is almost the same except you use gas propane hot water heat and they use oil hot water heat because the original owner they belong to So the oil
what you do is you go to this here. Okay. This is the comment section. Okay,
and when she goes down through she says, why did she mark up, let me go to the page where. Why did she mark that superior in the comments is these sales comparisons. Sale 1 is the older home that is on Lake Road to 224, Sale 2 is the 75 here and this is where new home on Ander Lake. This dwelling is locating and it goes through all the construction materials. So this is where she puts her comments as radiant heat on the 1st Floor custom flooring. They went above on the flooring with mahogany. You can go in Georgia, look at the pictures that she has from the LMS listing that shows all these features, counters, the cabinetry, the yard work, the landscape. That's why on that 75, when she had to put in, there was two homes that she listed superior.
See, I don't know what they mean by landscape because it's a wooded lot. We could never understand why he blocked his view because he has, well, the original owner has the view of almost the entire lake, but it's a totally wooded lot. So it doesn't have eye appeal.
Yeah. What she's doing is she's take this is the pit. Let me go to the picture. Whoops. I'm sorry. These are the pictures of the five I'm trying to go where she goes to the comparison. This is your house. Right here. Yeah. Okay. All right. So this is 224. This is the one she says is superior here.
No, it's 75, isn't it? 75 that she says is superior. That's the one.
Is the one. Right. The comments I was saying to why with the radiant heat, the types of flooring that they put in, so when you go down to that house, when you get to the actual pitches from the LMS, this is two twenty four, it shows to the board members everything about that house, including the interior. These are the pitches here of the quality that she's talking superior. But was that two twenty four or 75?
This one's 75. So if you look at it, is the one that sold for 995,000, Yes. So her comment on this and the house that's on Columbia Lake that has pictures in here shows you why she lists those as superior where the other houses including mine was good which is pretty much standard. It's quality is good. This house in the system for the Andover town right now is an A. Mine is an A plus plus. These are the pictures you can look at from the board when she's giving you the comments of the interior and exterior and the higher quality and why it's sold for so much. And then the other one that's on Columbia Lake that she list here.
Whoops, that's Hebron still. Yeah. I, I really didn't pay a lot of attention to that because I don't know the house. And Columbia Lake is a little different in that they allow motors and it is a natural lake. Was some which was some of her comments. Yeah.
So the so the the real when it came down to it, what I asked Linda to do, said you're independent, you go do it because I'm not trying to sell my house. I'm just trying to figure it out based on the town's What is the market value? Because that is that is what has to be presented from a court is what is true market value. So her number that she came up with is $765,000 She used all comparables to late properties versus trying to find homes equivalency and it is all with recent sales. So in the system it says the types of appraisals you can get is based on sales, based on cost, like if you compare a building a house, cost for cost, or income, those are the three types of appraisals you get. So the ones that get presented using this process is on sales. Because we didn't have a large amount of sales, but she had to have enough, that's what the board members are seeing. That appraisal I was just going through is her comparing across properties. And the two things is my current market value, fair market value, did as a certified appraiser July. So that is a number even higher than I was accepting on my original appraiser, but she is saying that is what is at a current time stamp.
What I one also 108,000 more than, I mean less than what the appraised value was.
Correct, correct. So so that's that's what my position today is going from the board and saying that is the fair market value through the process that the state would accept. I ask the appeal boards to accept that value and put it in. So even though I thought it was even a lower value, I have got to accept that in the sense of that is what the market would bear right now in her mind from doing this process.
Well, I mean, I could see maybe taking a little off, but your house is beautiful. It has lovely eye appeal, curb appeal, whatever. It's on a good part of the lake. And when I look at some of these other houses like 17 Lakeside, I mean, that's appraised for over yeah, appraised for over a 1,000,000. Million.
And that waterfront is terrible because that used to be called the Red Barn and that's where the Lake Association owned it and all that. So I've been there many, many times and it's swampy. So I'm thinking that part of the reason that your house is valued higher is because you probably could get more money than what she's saying for it. It's it's a beautiful house.
The landscape So so, Georgette, I'm not saying it's not a beautiful house. Right. The process is fair market, and the process that the board oversees for the town is the entire process. So there's two things. One, you can look at the value of my property and what it was assessed based on my challenge of what's the inconsistency. But the other aspect is a class action action suit to the town on the disparity between the lake property and the rest of the town. There is a lot of disparity here that to me you need to step back and look at and challenge because it is not a fair system. I will pay my fair share and I just found out what that is to go to a court of large $765,000
more than I thought my house is valued. In the long run, I have told my brother this, I don't need the higher carrying cost for a six month home. So yeah, I might have to find out what the market is. Then maybe a family comes in, lives there year round and gets the full value of paying taxes. But to me, from a process end, there's too much disparity on the the town putting disproportionate value on the lake and less than the rest of the town number one and I see it with my own property of what's happening 82% increase.
Well, as far as the value of the town versus the lake, that's a no brainer. People would rather live on the lake. If they wanna live on the lake, they're gonna pay the price. I mean, mine went up too, but you know, I just figure I've got a whole, all the recent sales from the last two or three years, and it's amazing the amount of money people are paying for a little tiny house that really, you know, you'd think it wouldn't be worth it. But when I look at all these sales, in fact, John Shaponis gave copies to all three of us board members of all the recent sales. So we could see just exactly what, you know, what the houses are going for. This one on 83 School Road that's just sold for 745,000 in 2017. It's now valued at $9.20. And it technically is waterfront, but you've got to go down through the woods to get to the water. So I think we're trying to be fair. You're not going to find people paying the same values for town property than Lake property. That's that's kind of a losing battle.
So the sales of properties and the rest of town in Andover is the same proportionality. So for every development that I looked at that executive homes, I took out how those sales of properties were there proportionally, did that change the same amount under this assessment? Because John said it only went up. I think it was 18%. He always say you saying that the only higher sales in the town of Andover that occurred that were used in this process. With the late ones was proportional? Did he provide you all the values that you were equal to? Because that would be a disparity if you are not using all the values on those properties as well.
He did say that the towns, the the non lake area did not go up in the same percentage that the lake area did. They went around the lake area seven times to try to be fair and make No,
I I understand that Georgia. Yeah. What I'm saying is the comment you made to me is you're surprised what John provided you for sales prices around the lake and percentages that went up. Did that not occur on other properties in the town of Anderra? If a house sold for $400,000 then the rest of the properties on that street valuations saw that impact of an increased sale?
I do not have any figures on that, but you have to realize that Well, we move the system shows that it is disproportionate
on actual sales in other neighborhoods and that is what I saying. You have got to look at, I can accept value of lake properties higher than the norm, and it's gone on an increase. But if you accept it's a much larger increase for the overall town without considering how the rest of the sales went to others of the town, if it's disproportionate, that is not a fair system.
I don't think it is proportionate. Really, I mean, most of the appeals, I think all but two, are all in the lake area. They are all waterfront properties. If
I am in the other area of the town and let the lake pay for the difference, I can see why they wouldn't go in front of the appeals board. But I am saying if it gets exposed in the court of law to take a look at sales that occurred that should have been used in the system in the same way, so take a neighborhood, if three sales went down and the prices of the valuation stayed the same or slightly went up and aren't showing the increase, you would be accepting the lake increase for the sales but not the rest of the town. That is disproportionate.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.
If John has convinced you that the sales had to go up that much around the lake because of actual sales that occurred. Yes. Fair market. What is the same amount of increase in the areas of the town that didn't go up? Is it the same proportion? Was sales prices actually considered? Did he give you a list of the some of the other neighborhoods like that I was pointing out?
No, but I didn't ask for it. I just wanted get the sales.
That's what I'm saying. That's open exposed because all recorded sales have to be in. If if they're not being put in or if they're not proportional, you have a disparity in the system.
Let me see if I have any of that. Let's see. This is School Road. Okay, there is, well that's also lake property. They do have waterfront. I don't really, I mean I have a couple of appeals here, but one is for a carport. Know? No. I'm just I'm just looking at I don't have what you're looking for because I didn't if we don't have any appeals about it, I know that it probably did not go up as much in the towns. I doubt if anybody's went down, but, you know, they if they went up, they went up a smaller amount. Is that what you're trying to say? Smaller percentage? No. What I'm
trying to say, Georgia, is if I tell you an area of the lake I can prove is that it has gone up. John on the thirty first said it averaged 43 percent. Right. The figure I'm giving you right now on a on a certified appraisal is 60% on my house That's seven sixty five, not 82 what the town said. So if you say you accept that he says values have gone up and my house went up 82% when he said it averaged 43, I'm still on the higher end. I am still grossly over evaluated even though I have a nice house as standard $765,000 and the town is saying no it is not $7.65, fair market value for us is $8.73, an 80 So 2% I'm saying it's over evaluated even with John giving you as board members recent sales and going on record on the thirty first saying, yeah the lake went up 43% the rest of the town was 19%, but I am almost double what he is quoting there. That is a too high of a valuation. Obviously because of time Linda do you have any questions?
No I was just gonna say John at our meeting a few weeks ago said that he would accept certified appraisal as fair market value, right?
No, he said, what he said was that we can consider it. He didn't say that we would take the numbers from there. He said we could consider Okay.
All right. Well, I mean, is all above my expertise, but I would be comfortable with accepting the certified appraisal report of July. But that's a thousand dollars off. And it is that's what the report says.
Yeah, that again, that that is the opinion of the appraiser.
No, it's a certified appraisal from the state of Connecticut. Someone's done it for forty years and gone to court. I agree. Mean John cannot represent his numbers in court. The town has to pay for an independent certified appraisal to go to court. If I go to the next step, Linda goes to represent me with the same report. So what you're saying, Georgette, is in your appeals acting independently as an appeal board members Mhmm. What I produced is what the courts would accept. And what Linda just said in your in your charter type, if you can prove that she used it by process, which is all certified, she's not just licensed, she's certified and she's from the area and done many properties, that is what they would accept. They would not accept John. They he's he's not an appraiser. He's an assessor. And the town will have to pay for another independent. And if it comes out the same, then the town would have to accept the seven sixty five. So I am saying I am coming here, accept the seven sixty five because I follow the law.
John has done the job for many, many years. He's gotten all kinds of awards. He's very good at what he does. So it's a matter of is she superior in what she does or is he superior in what he does? The court would not accept his work, Georgette. He you have to get
a certified appraiser. Matter of fact, the name of the last one was Regis Rapinelli from Buckley appraisal from Nyanic. And he lost and Linda's won and the town ended up accepting Linda's value and she is doing six right now in the town again And it's all on the lake for the same reason you're getting the appeals I know, got the motion.
But, you know, you have to realize too that generally when property values go up, the mill rate comes down. So you end up sometimes paying just a little bit different than what you did before for taxes. But if I take off, you know, dollars 100,000 on yours and all the six that I have, that's a lot of money. And so that leaves the rest of us to pay the difference in the mill rate. And that I don't think is fair either.
So And I'm telling you, the process was fair and the late values were comparative with the Andover, I would accept it. I accept $7.65. Even though I paid a lot less than that, I gotta accept the fair market value. Fair market value by a certified licensed person in the area forty years gone to court. My next step would be to sue the town and bring it in front of the judge in New Britain and say, just like 2016, but the lawyer Dennis you might want to go back and look at the notes of that particular case because everything I followed I followed that case from the start. Got to look at it from a standard of what is fair. I understand is if mine goes down and a few others, but the other end is, is there a benefit the other town that didn't pay their fair share? They're getting a lower rate. 82 percent increase to me is the disparity I'm pointing out. 60% I'll accept.
Well Should I go ahead and make a motion, Georgette?
I if I may It's only you and I. Before you before you proceed, I Sure. I just wanna say a few things. I'm not here to make a decision on this case. I'm not the elected member of the Board of Assessment and Appeals. I think Mr. Roy has made a very impressive presentation. I have done I have been involved in several cases in New Britain, Mr. Roy, which is my hometown by the way, and I always liked going there because it's a nice trip. I don't handle those appeals for John Chipponis. He has somebody else who does that, but an appraisal is definitely weighty evidence, an independent appraisal, but it's not conclusive proof of value. And and and I I think you're not saying that. I think you you agreed that, you know, John could come up with another appraisal if he had to go to court. And I think I think this is a very difficult case. When I was judge of probate for many years, I had to I had to play assessor to some extent or to play appraiser to some extent because sometimes there were properties in The States where people and families would fight over them because one person would want to buy that, buy the property and the rest of the family would say, well, you're gonna have to pay a lot more than you're willing to pay. And so I would go and the one thing I would I would do and I don't know if if you all have been there and walked through the place. I know that you're familiar with property to a great extent,
Georgette, because you live over there apparently. And I I didn't know that but I got that from what was said today. Yes. But I know one thing, would never make a conclusion in a case like this. This is a very complicated case. It is. Mr. Roy has made a he's done a very good job of arguing his case. I agree. And I haven't, you know, if I were the judge of the case, I'd want to read I don't have the benefit of the entire appraisal in front of me or the other data that he had. I saw a little bit of it, but I would definitely want to make a visit to the property. I can say this that I am somebody who loves to swim and when I was younger my wife and I looked at lake properties all over the place and we decided even at that time that they were too expensive for our limited budget. So we ended up buying a house and I'm putting a huge pool in the backyard that I can see from here and I can't wait until the weather gets warmer because I love to swim. So I think deep water, I myself Mr. Roy, I had deep water in front of my place, I would consider it a hell of a lot more valuable than if I had to go through, you know, very shallow water with rocks on the bottom. I have tender feet but everybody's different, everybody's different and I haven't seen your place. It sounds real good to me but it sounds real small too. The land is not, there's not a lot of land there.
So I think this is a very tough case to decide and I certainly wouldn't, if I were on the Board of Assessment Appeals, I wouldn't want to make a decision on it without really taking a close look at the properties, that your property Mr. Roy and also the adjacent properties and whatnot. But you know, the valuation is a hard thing to do even if you're a licensed appraiser with a lot of experience and you might get somebody else who would come in and you know put it higher or put it lower. So it's really a tough call and I just want to say that you've made a really really fine presentation on your own behalf. I'm impressed but I still wouldn't wouldn't make a decision without being over there and checking it out really carefully because there you know you're talking about a lot of money in terms of the appraisal anyway. I don't know what the taxes will be, that's what's really important. But in any event, this has been an interesting hearing.
Didn't expect the kind of presentation you made in your own behalf. You were a very good lawyer for yourself Mr. Roy but at the same time you don't know what's gonna happen in Britain. And I am I am very empathetic to the board of assessment appeals because this is a difficult case and I don't know what I would do. I know one thing I want to see the property inside and out and really look around the neighborhood
and the lake before I would make a decision on something like this. Well, I'm well aware of the neighborhood and and that, you know, and Oh, okay. Well, I I I've sent my pictures of inside as well.
I've said my piece and I you know, I don't know what I don't know. I wouldn't be able to decide a case like this without knowing more. This is a tough case. A difficult case. And like I said, Mr. Roy has done a nice job of presenting it. But you know there's a lot to these cases it's not simple. Anyway that's my that's my 2¢ as far as you know going to make an emotion or, you know, going forward, know, it's up to the Board of Assessment Appeals.
You have two minutes. I'm still gonna say that I don't know enough about real estate that looking at his house would change my mind to not accept a certified appraisal. Okay. Good point.
I would be willing to make a motion to, I mean, we deal strictly with assessment, but to get to the assessment amount, we have to lower the appraisal amount. And I would be willing to lower the appraisal amount to 850,000. That would take 23,400 off the appraisal if that would help you. But I I could not agree to take off a $108,400 because I don't I think your house is worth more than that. So It might force me to find out. Oh, I can make a motion.
The only thing I would accept is what, like Linda just said, I went and paid for is the appraisal and it came in at $7.65, which was higher than I expected, but that's what I want for the appeal.
Well, then I think we should just let you, your best bet would be to go to court because
So should I make that motion for the $7.65? And then if you vote no, he's gonna go to court anyway, right? Think he's Oh, he's gonna go to court.
He's I even second the motion so it wouldn't pass. Okay. Okay? There's no point in doing this for nothing. So, I mean, if you wanna do it, but then I won't second it, so it it will be moot point.
I mean Well, Linda, you can go on record saying $7.65
is what you would Yeah. I I will do that. Okay.
You wanna make a motion use that. I'll make a that we use the certified appraisal report of $765,000
Okay. And I will second it, but then I'll vote no. Okay. And you vote yes. Yes. So Amanda, you have those, the motion and the two votes to record. The amount was 765,000 that she made the motion for.
And Georgia, what do you base only the 23,000 reduction on so that it's recorded?
I, it was just, I thought, well, if we drop it a little bit, then you wouldn't have to go to court, but if it's not enough, I can understand. I, you know, I sympathize with you, but I don't know. I I have a lot of faith in in John Tchaponis and his ability along with vision, and he's gone around seven times. He offered to let me go with him because he's trying to be fair around the lake properties. It isn't the same as the town, I'm sure. And if that
would cause a big Well, it's also the disparities that I showed you for the lake properties and increases as well. Yeah. Well,
there's a lot of other He's he's on record of 43 with a high of 70 on the thirty first. Yeah. I'm a high of 82, so that's at least one off.
Okay. Okay. Well, you make your point in court. Okay? And it was nice meeting you and Yes. Good
Thank you for all your hard work. Yeah. Yep. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye. Bye. Me get next.
Where is my other paper now? Alan is up. Oops. We're just gonna take a couple minutes of a break before we Sure. Sure.
Absolutely. Okay. Is everybody ready to resume? Yep. I unmuted. Okay. We're all set. Alan's here. Yeah. Did not have an appraisal done, Alan? Yeah. No. I did an appraisal. I don't have a copy of it.
Well, have it right here. The town didn't have copy. I have it with me. The town didn't get a copy then.
Is that correct? I was told I could bring it to the hearing.
Well, that's true, but you knew I wouldn't be present.
Yes. I know, but I also know that you want John Chiponas to look at it before you vote. Right? No, that was an option.
My understanding was John's answer to us was let me make sure it's an independent certified local appraiser with comparables in the area before you accept it. But the understanding was that we could accept it. So I brought it with me. I'm giving it to Linda. Okay.
It'll get disseminated to John. He can go over the 36 pages.
He gave out examples of what he would be looking for, whether they were in the same area or whether he did not say, bring it to me before you make a choice.
Okay? It was sitting right next to you. Yeah. So we didn't hear the same thing? No. I took notes on it.
Well, it's not necessary for him to to for us to take it to him, but I would have liked to have a copy. His comment, he wanted to be sure
that it was a bonafide report from an independent appraiser using comparables to the area. He said that in the past he's seen comparables that didn't apply and he wouldn't accept them.
Yeah. But his answer was to you when you asked if we could, if you could bring an appraisal, get an appraisal and bring it in. And that was his answer to you. He did not say the board should let me look at it first.
Well, if I may, Georgette, I think that he did say that he would be willing to look at anything that Yes, he would. That would be subsequent to the hearing. Are you a board member? You know, don't remember all the details that you stated Alan, but I did remember that he was willing to, as of course he would be, he was willing to look at any any submissions from anybody at the If you wanted, if the board wanted them to see it, it's up to the board. But you know I would see no problem with that with him with him seeing it or with him seeing it and if Georgette doesn't have it in front of her because of the unusual nature of this proceeding. She has to be at home so
you know she's not there in the room obviously. So obviously she's not going to have the benefit of the appraisal except for the you know what you can talk, what you can say about it today unless you can put it up on the screen, which you probably can't.
What was the amount that Linda came up for yours? Well, first you're assuming it's Linda.
Well, all the other ones are all for Linda. So I'm assuming, yes. Everyone Well, I called I called three appraisers and nobody had time to do mine
except Greg and Linda Fortin. That's the only people that were able to come out. And and my explanation was there's so many properties for sale that the banks are really pushing them to get them all done. Right. And I don't And this have a woman was in the Andover area with her partner doing like, I don't know, umpteen appraisals.
Well, all of our appeals on the lake were done by her, appraisals on the lake were done by her. So it's pretty safe to assume yours was too. But what was the figure your appraiser gave you? 432,000. 432,000. Okay. As opposed to $4.94. Correct. Okay. And
what I'd like to say here is my house was built in 1930. Hasn't had any addition. Alan, wait a minute. Has he been sworn in? Oh, sorry. No, I haven't been.
Yeah, you should be sworn in. When you sign the application
for an appeal, it's there. I'll swear you in that. Okay. I I I'm not I'm not happy with that language. That sounds like he's saying in in the appeal application that that the paperwork is is true or something like that. When you read it, it's okay, but it's not the language I would use. I'm gonna give you some language to use at your next hearing. You hear my disclaimer? Can I ask a question? It's confusing me. Dennis, are you part of the board? I mean, how does this No. I am not part of the board, but I but I'm but I know that the you you you you have to be sworn in.
So that's why No. I understand. But could anybody in the public talk? I'm the town attorney.
We do have to understand your position. That's not my question. My question is, at a BAA hearing, are you in attendance and able to partake of it?
I'm able to offer suggestions as to process procedure. Sure. I'm not familiar with that. Mean I I I thought I said that Alan when we met
a few weeks ago. Yeah. No. You said you would if we had questions and we wanted to ask them, we'd get them answered. I didn't know that you were preemptory
in doing this. Well, when I see somebody being it's required by state law that the witnesses be sworn in.
I and I'm fine with that. I'm fine with it. That's all I said. That's all I said. Alright. Georgette, you gonna read it? I will. Go ahead. Do
you you hereby do declare under penalty a false statement that the above statement according to the best of your knowledge, remembrance, belief is a true statement?
Yes, I do. In stating for the record, my name is Alan E. Roy. I live at 340 Lake Road, Andover, Connecticut 6232. I've lived there for approximately sixteen plus years. It's a 1930s built cottage that's been remodeled many times. The last time it was remodeled was sixteen years ago. It has had nothing else done to it in those sixteen years. So the inside of the house is called a B quality home. The majority of the flooring is plywood with rug on it or linoleum tile in the bathroom. It's not an especially spectacular home, but it's my home. Having said that, excuse me, you have a hardwood floor somewhere because it has, I have it in the kitchen and the living room. Okay. But the three bedrooms are all rugged over plywood. Right. And the two bathrooms are linoleum. Okay.
So having said that it's a 1,600 let's see, give you the 1,662 square foot home. It's not large And it's on a very slope block from the driveway to the front door is 21 steps down. This property is maintained by me. It's not extraordinary. I didn't you know, any of the landscaping is done by me. And having said that, the septic system is at best guess not on record with the town hall and they think it may fail in the very near future, in which case it'll be need to be replaced, but because of its current location, I also need a well. So I would need a septic and a well in the near future for this home. And to say that it's worth 500,000 to me is a big grasp. And so I went out and I hired a certified independent appraisal service, not from a bank, not from my insurers, not from my companies, an independent appraisal. What is this house worth? And I have this and I'm submitting it to Linda, the appraisal report. I don't know what it would do any good to read it. It's pretty extensive with area comparables and similar in years and size. And it comes out as stated just previously to 432,000, which is approximately 60 plus thousand dollars less than the town's guesstimate. And so that's what I'm presenting. I'm not, you know, I can tell you everything I would say about it, but it's kinda doesn't really make a difference. They're it's cert it's certified. And these people are professionals.
I'm not. That's why I hired them. And so I would submit to the board this appraisal for this price and expect that it be entertained appropriately. Do you have any questions?
How do we want to do this Georgette? Well, I'm right now I'm just looking at a comparable. See, that's what we have is comparing.
Well, you can pause there. Can take the whole As long as it's certified independent.
Well, the the assessor is also professional. I can't hear you. I said the assessor is also professional and has been He's an assessor, not an appraiser. That's true. But he knows what he's doing.
Georgette, he's an assessor, not an appraiser. Fair market value appraisal are the standard in the state of Connecticut at the Britain Superior Court by decision. That's been stated. If you think you're the appraiser, I'd like to hear your appraisal of my home. I'm not an appraiser. I can't just give you a value and say, hey, this is what my home is worth. So this person who I hired and paid apparently has worked in the Greater Hebron Andover area for over thirty years and has apparently good relationship with John Choponnes for over twenty five years. Sure. So I don't see the issue, but I will present it to you guys to figure out because I'm presenting not voting. Right.
Okay. There's a similar house at 330. That's 459. Sold for $479,009 Wow. See again fair market value. This house at 330, which is near you, sold in August '21 for 475,000.
Was it built in 1930? That's 1,600 square feet. Mine was built. Georgia, I cannot I cannot appraise my house. I'm not qualified. I'm presenting a certified independent appraisal from a Connecticut licensed appraiser that lives in Hebron less than eight miles away. So I'm telling you that that is the standard for the state of Connecticut.
And what I'm telling you is that we have to go by fair market value according to the sales in our area. The sales in our area are showing
different. Georgette, this is an appraiser. This is a certified appraiser who is examined comparables in the area and you're bouncing around like looking at other properties, giving an opinion what as an appraiser you're a member of the board of assessment appeals is the standard being met. Am I presenting an appraisal from a certified independent appraiser based on fair market value?
Yes. I'm looking at sales, recent sales in the area, which I have four of them in this booklet.
Okay. And I guess what you're saying is you want to go to court unless we give you what you want. Excuse me? I said, what you're saying is you're going to go to court unless we give Oh, absolutely. Okay.
And I'm telling you that by ignoring an independent fair market value certified appraisal, you're doing the wrong thing. You're not an appraiser. I'm not an appraiser. Linda's not an appraiser. The standard is an appraisal. I don't know why your feet are so entrenched in mud.
I'm gonna jump in here again. You don't need to insult me. I'm gonna jump in here again. And I just want to repeat what I've said before, that an appraisal is very, very heavily, heavy proof. It's very good proof of value. But it is not conclusive proof. And the Nothing is conclusive.
Appraiser, the appraiser is not a member of this board and the appraiser cannot decide these cases. I suggest before, since she hasn't seen the appraisal, I suggest that the Board of Assessment Appeals at least defer a decision on this until she gets a chance to read it and review it with mister Shaponis. Because it it all depends on the comparables and whether the comparables that she used are the best ones. Are the are are the ones that really show value. And if they are, then the appraisal should be weighted very heavily. But that is how it works. The comparables are not always the best ones. In this situation they may be. But that that needs to be I think that John's offer that you pointed out Alan should be followed up with. I think that Georgette has not seen the appraisal because she's not present. And I think you should defer decision on this case until Georgette at least has a chance to read the appraisal and the board consisting of Georgette and Linda decide whether to refer the appraisal to John for his,
you know, his take on it. I will make a motion that we defer decision until I get to see the appraiser appraisal and Linda and I can talk to John. We will have a, a special meeting that will have to be warned in order to the two of us to get there together. Okay. I can second that.
All right. All in favor. Aye. Did you get that motion, Amanda? Amanda? Yes,
I did. Okay. Thank you. All right, so that's tabled. All right.
Thank you very much. I will have to come up with another time. Bear in mind people that I'm having surgery on the March 8 and all of this has to be done before then. I have to get letters out to everyone. What do you want me to do with the appraisal, Georgia? Well, I have to have copies. So if you could get the town office to copy them for me and make a copy for John, maybe Amanda could do that on Monday.
I mean, is there somewhere I can leave this for Amanda,
or should I just take it home No, with the town hall is locked up. It's all locked up. Amanda? Alright. We can leave it upstairs. The town hall is closed on Monday, unfortunately. It is President's Day. So we'll get it on Tuesday morning.
Tuesday morning. You want me to leave it for you?
On top of that black cart. Is that Alan's appraisal report? Yes. Okay.
Yes, you can leave it. On top of the black cart where the others materials are?
I'd say I would put it under my door instead so it's not in a public place just to make sure it it's safe and sound. Which door is yours now? I share an office with the tax collector.
Okay. Alright. So I'll just put it under the door of the tax collector's office. Okay. Linda,
would you be able to meet with, let me see, the attorney I mean, the with John Chipponis on the twenty fourth. He comes in at, what, five to seven, but I know you can't get there at five, but if you could get there before seven. February 24. I can't do the evening.
Well, that's when John is there. That's why I mentioned that. Okay. Unless you, we could meet with him separately, then you wouldn't have to warn it as a meeting. That might be easier. If I go and see him on the twenty fourth and you go and see him whenever you can. He's there on Mondays from oh, it's nine in the morning that he's there on Thursdays.
That's what I thought. And I could probably do nine in the morning.
Okay. Then February 24, I will have it warned as a meeting. Or 9AM? 9AM. Yep. We could probably make it 10AM.
Okay. No, let's do nine. I have to bring someone for an endoscopy later that day. So I think nine is better for me. Nine be better for you? Yep. On that day, yes. Okay.
I don't think I have any medical things that day. So Georgia, is that an official BAA meeting?
Yes, it will be an official special meeting. Okay. And I will send an agenda. And the difference with a special meeting is that you can only talk about what's on the agenda. You can't add to it. So that's the difference, but it has to be warned. Okay. And it'll be in person. Okay. Is that all we have? All we have.
Okay. Thank you very much. I get a motion to adjourn. I'll make a motion to adjourn. I'll second. Okay. All in favor. Aye. Thank you. Thank you too. You, Dennis, for being here. Thank you.