Meeting transcript
Board of Assessment Appeals - Appeals Hearing
March 15, 2022 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
Click on that. There you go. See, because now it's being recorded. So we're gonna start the meeting and we're gonna start with the pledge of allegiance to the flag Pledge of integrity. Of The United States Of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Alright. Having done that, you got here first, so we can start with you. Okay.
Hold on real quick before you do that. Are you seating Rob Hamburger in place of Georgette as an alternate? Yes.
Because Georgette's not online and normally she's on like ten minutes in advance.
Yep. Explicitly. You just have to officially seat him whoever's the chair.
I keep him a chair. Yeah, okay. Well before, so before you seat me, who is going to be chair since I'll do it. Okay.
So this is an alternate who was selected. Georgette Conrad, who was the chair, unfortunately had some issues during her hip surgery. So she's in a recovery center and, hopefully it all will go well with some time. But right now, not wanting to be, short a member because we're only a two member board,
we had the select men, get an appointment and here we are. And just to let you know who I am, I'm Bob Hamburger. I've lived in Andover for thirty three years. I've got a 17 year old who comes to Ram. I previously was on the board of, Planning and Sewing. In fact, I chaired it for two years So that's why they turned to me and said, hey, can you step in? So I'm remind
you that you gave an oath for testimony to the board, and I'm going to just remind you that that oath is still in effect because you're still in a position to do that. So what we're gonna ask is for you. We we kind of go over what we've done. You submitted. You have that the appraisal. So you submitted appraisal. We sent it to the assessor as we had discussed with you, and he had no comments to make on it. He thought it was appropriate appraisal with no issues. That stands on good ground. Do you have any additional testimony you wish to give the board before we do?
Alright. Believe No? Me, the appraisal speaks for itself from an independent appraiser. Right. That's this one here.
Since the app since I can't see the applicant, is this Janice Pearl we're discussing with? Well, I can turn you around if if if that will help you. Okay. How are doing?
He's doing that's Eric, is the town administrator. Oh, okay. He's doing oh, it's the, it's the emblem of the town. Oh, oh, I see. Right. Right. Oh, I'm just covering and doing the minutes. I needed to know. So you're Janice?
Nope, I'm Krista Panorfi. I got it. Okay. We're the Panorfis.
And so he's doing the minutes of the meeting. Oh, okay. The person who normally did them for the last several meetings wasn't able to do it. Okay. And Eric stepped up to the table, so to speak. So we're happy to have him do that. So you have no further information to offer. So based on that, I'm going to ask the newest member if he has any questions you want to ask. I think so. Who conducted the appraisal? She's
got thirty plus thirty two years of experience she's in Hebron She's done tens of thousands. She's given court testimony, including on the Andover cases, and they have found her court testimony worthy. So we have no issues. The issue that was a postponement of the decision was based on the assessor asking that any appraisals that came in, he had be given an opportunity to look at, see whether or not he found any issues with them. And he was given all of the appraisals to date and we've been told of none. I asked Georgette specifically she talked to him and he has no issue with it. So he's seen this? Yeah. Okay.
If he were here I would ask him if how he came to such a different value. I'd ask for some insight, but he's not here.
And we thought we would get something along that line, but we did.
That's surprising. I had actually posed this question to the town's attorney, which is this is an adversarial proceeding. How come the town isn't being represented the same way that, you know, one side is represented. You're here, you're submitting evidence, you're submitting testimony. We can ask questions. How come the town isn't being represented? The town has an interest in this. So the way it works is this BAA
was the very first board ever used in the state of Connecticut going back to colonial time. And so the information is that the board has no cost, so people don't have to pay a fee to sit, they can present it and it has to be to fellow residents. And we're not supposed to be unduly influenced either by the town attorney. We can ask him questions, but he's not supposed to jump into the meeting to offer things. We're supposed to be independent of that fact. Right. We represent the process. Right. So with your question, I would say that, we tend to ask him questions in advance, just like the assessor. So we had a meeting, the assessor said, I'd like to see these. We said, sure, no problem. You know, we'll send them in. It was a little disjointed because we kept waiting to get information back and we didn't.
If the assessor has seen this and has ruled it credible, right, then that's probably pretty much all I need to That's, that's what we said. And I'd like to know more about why, but if, but if he's seen it and he says, yeah, that's good.
Good. Along those lines is there ever like if the town says Eric this is Janice Probyn speaking now she's asking a question. The question I had is along the same lines that was just brought up is that if there's so much discrepancy and there's not an explanation from the person who made the original appraisal assessment as to why there's discrepancy? Is there ever in the future like if I mean sure there could be one or two cases where that just happens but is there ever a time where it's looked at as a whole and said well gee all of these that were done
were this much higher. Well here's how we perceive this. We've had this discussion, Linda and I, in Georgette actually. So you were concerned enough about the information you received to say this doesn't look right. Now, everybody in the town who owns property has received that same letter. And we're done I think we're down to nine people that were concerned enough to say, hey, we would like a chance to have this examined and you petitioned us and you're sitting in to give evidence and we're going to render the decision. The rest of those people apparently have no issue to the matter at hand and that's the pricing of the property. Having said that, you know, I don't know why, you know, as to the other part of this, an assessment is different in how it's done than an appraisal. So in the state of Connecticut to do an appraisal
that has merit and value at court, right? It has to be independent, a certified Connecticut appraiser, not New York City. It has to be someone local. And that could be depending on where you live. I mean, Hebron is local to Andover. So that's a good choice. There are ticks you've got to hit now. When you do that appraisal, you have to have comparables. So this person puts together a report, a very intelligent, well defined report with comparables and makes an analysis of the property, right? And what we're concerned is that it was done during the time period of the taxation, right? Not two years earlier, not right current to this year. We want it current to when the tax was applied in October 2021. And having said that, if the comparables are valid, the person is certified, it's independent, right? All these things merit in our minds an acceptance. For instance, Linda and I, haven't and spoke to Bob about this, but we're not, we're not assessors, we're not appraiser. Okay, so we have to value that professional expertise, just like we were talking about a PE, an engineer, professional engineer. I would never presume to review a professional engineer's report with commentary because I'm not that's not my thing I can't do that I didn't certify I didn't take the test I didn't that's not my thing it's the same here and so that's why we use the assessor's office as a sounding board, know, and if he said, oh, this is four years old, it was done by a firm in New York City, the comparables are in Stanford, you know all of that would invalidate this information for us so with that being said I think if you have any other questions.
Sounds like the appraisal. All right. Okay.
You want to make a motion. I can't see that. This is the
appraisal was three forty two and we're supposed to make the motion in terms of the assessment.
Yes, this was a discussion with Georgette. She absolutely insisted as the chairperson that we make our vote based on assessment, not appraisal. So with that in mind, Linda has calculated the appraisal figure that you gave us. The appraisal was three forty two. That's 70% of fair market value correct three forty two is the fair market value right and 70% thereof would make your assessment
let's just double check yeah you can double check it it okay would make me triple checking she's
an accountant so I'm an engineer. So I'll make a motion that the board. Except to $39,400 as the assessment on the Panorfi property which is located at 55 Hebron Road, Andover, Connecticut. And do I have a second? I'll second. All in favor? Aye. Motion carries three zero. You. So you people are all set. This is government at work. The way it should be.
So for next steps then I assume once you get through all the hearings, we'll get another letter in the mail I'm that will be
going to assume at this point that Georgette's not in a position to send out the letters. And so I'll do that. And you will get a letter from the board from me through the board. Okay. Then our property card will be updated as well to Yes, we will notify the assessor's office of the change and Roberta will make the change on the cards. Okay. And then I believe you get something from the letter Tax collector
Oh, that I don't. Changing. Well, that's what happened with the cars. Okay. Well, cars remember I had my car? Yes. And I ended up having to sign something and send the check. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Before we go any further, just to confirm,
motion was made by Roy Allen, seconded by Linda Armstrong, and the motion was to set the assessment to 239,400 for 55 Hebron Road and Overconnected. Correct? Yes, but it's Alan Roy.
First name is Alan, last name is Roy. Okay. That's all right. My teachers did it all the time. You got that Eric? Yep. Okay excellent well very good you don't have thank you very much okay
thank you so much appreciate it have a good one thank you Janice Troll you have You're so organized. I reviewed substantial detail last night.
And Alan actually went and visited. I actually did. Did an on-site visit. I wanted to see for myself the conditions in the basement. I don't want to use this word, but couldn't use this word it's abysmal. I can use it like cold and dry.
Yeah so Janice before we I've got to remind you you're under oath you were sworn in previously but I am telling you that that extends to the board even now so you acknowledge that right? Yes. All right so having said that you were being given an opportunity to present any additional evidence and apparently you sent us an appraisal. Yes
Also done by Linda Fortin. She had come as a recommendation because I guess she'd been doing some in the area and I needed to have this done fairly rapidly, in order to get a copy sent in advance to this meeting. So, so she is also the one that, was able to accommodate my timetable and What's her name again? It's Linda Fortin, F O R T I N.
What was the first name? I'm sorry. You're hard to hear.
L I N D A. Linda. Yep. So is there a I mean, saw the basement was mostly dirt and crawl space other than the dugout area where you had your furnace and your hot water. So, yeah, it's it's an older camp structure to say the least with a lot of additions attached and it seems like you built porches and closed them covered them I mean it just seemed like the expansion.
This was again, this was my parent. It was my parents had, originally purchased it and this is gosh probably almost sixty years ago and they purchased it as a summer place and then because they loved it so much they they tried they converted it to to full time and that's why it was it's piecemeal. They had done an addition, because of course, my brother and I had were still living at home at the time so they needed, you know more living space but the gosh the walls the floors that are all original and you know I've had they when they redid it they did some slate you know stone floors and you know when I when my dad passed I had to have all the rugs ripped up because they they were in bad shape and I had the windows replaced because it was Except in that that glass Right, because that ended up being structural so I could not do anything about that. Right, right. But you know it was really mostly cosmetic even So as you go in the back door,
it's a conservatory, it's like a glass shell thing. Saw the pictures. I had gone there and those windows breached the edges so that when it rains it floods that area.
And it's almost always foggy which is why I wanted to have them removed.
Right. Then they told her that when they built it it was structurally attached to the home and it would not be easily removed and they haven't funded the repair of a window system because I guess the expense is pretty. Yeah, too much to download. So having said that, Bob, you have any questions for Jaylis in regard to those? We have those.
He had emailed me some. Was going to show Bob. It's too much for my phone to handle.
Yeah, well, you know, again, I would has the assessor reviewed
this appraisal? Has he copied it? My understanding is that he was getting copies of all assessments all appraisals, rather. I can't speak specifically to this one, but this was sent to us, what, five days ago? Yep.
I met her, she did that at the beginning of last week and, she emailed it to me on Friday because I was because that's when I sent it in and I got the confirmation from Carol Lee. Think it was I've been surprised because yeah. Was sent in on Friday, last Friday
a week ago. So this was here before us before a couple Correct. Of Correct. And we did not have an appraisal at that time. Was the assessor able to come inside the house? Yes. I actually met him there before.
Wait. The assessor, not the Not the appraisal. Okay. The assessor from the town. From the town. Yes. I had met him there before the meeting, the second meeting, and he walked through and
Feel free to make the same commentary you made to me. When I did the walkthrough with her, she explained to me that he made some commentary. I brought
him down. To the bay. I was trying to show him the things. I said you know I showed him that the cabinets in the kitchen had just been painted that they weren't new cabinets it wasn't a complete upgrade. That he had had you know all of the contractors when it was had a little refurbish, you know, the the cost and everything. And when I went down to the basement, he really wasn't interested in the basement, but he was interested in the I there's a the little enclosed porch that's facing the lake. It's it's narrow and it's small, but it it's always been enclosed because that's know, as people, you know, coming out of the water, I wanted a place where it's not going to be tracked because the living room is right And after it's not heated, course. And he says, Oh, this could easily be living space. And he says, How can it be living space if it's not heated? And he says, Well, you could easily put an electric heater in here. I can put an electric heater in my garage to set the living space. Know, it just, I was getting a little frustrated and it's, you know, I mean, everyone has their own opinion, but I just felt like, and, you know, that he was kind because he had said before when he said it could easily be living space, and he had said that I I could actually change that to living space, you know. So I felt like I I'm better off not saying anything just letting him see and then just
going on with the procedure.
Well sure my garage could be a living space too but it's not. Exactly,
I know and I you know I didn't feel like I was getting like any type of an understanding or listening it was almost like tunnel vision so that's why I just said well I'll wait till the next step. What time of day was he there? I believe I met him around eleven because he had been next door he had been at the neighbors because I saw him walk across so I believe it was around 11:00
in the morning. I just wanted to know if it was five because if it's 05:00 and he wants But he got to see the, what was the word you used, abysmal? Was abysmal. It really was.
And the entrance to it was at the back right far back right corner so you had to go out and you come around the house and all. If it was just a bulkhead? Yeah right and if it snowed there was no way you were going to get down there easily and it was like this because
it had frozen because there had been the ice so having
this understanding Lynn do you have any questions? No I have no questions.
Would you like I can make a motion? Sure that would be wonderful. That we reduce I don't know what the assessment was what was your assessment that you actually got because I don't have that. But we can yeah I kind of wanted to see it but you know what I mean the thing you get from the can try to find it I have a field,
I can bring up the field. Give me a second. I can bring it up for a shortcut for this.
What about the Right there. So, the assessment is 474.
474. Okay, so that's what this number is. And the appraisal we have is 405,000. Yep. 70% of that would be, I lost it, 283500. All right. So I'll make a motion that the assessment assessment be reduced to 283500.
And I'll second that motion. All in favor. Aye. Aye. So the vote is carried unanimously Eric I don't know if you caught that. Yeah, so that was seconded by Alan Roy. Yes. And
can you just read the motion to reduce the assessed value? To 283,500.
To reduce the assessed value to 283,500. Okay. Motion made by Linda Arnez Wong, seconded by Alan Roy. Motion carries three zero zero.
Correct. Alright. Mister Paul, do you have any questions on this? You'll be getting a letter of notification to give you this information as Linda described to me and I wasn't aware that the tax collector may call you in regards to the signing up form to that extent. So whatever it is we'll make sure it comes with your attention. That is PO box and not your mailbox. Yes. The board erroneously sent her a notification to appear before us originally and we sent it to her mailbox and she doesn't get mail, she has a PO box. Okay. But the chairperson, did an oops.
You're all set. Thank you so much. Have a good evening. Thank you. You.
So the third person just for the record wasn't he received a letter that his hearing was going to be Thursday the fifteenth. He clued in on Thursday, not Tuesday. And when I called him yesterday to advise him, he was unable to make it this evening. I tried to move it until the nineteenth. And unfortunately he's out of town, he's going to be added and has been added to the agenda on twenty fourth, Thursday the twenty fourth. And so we should be hearing him then. We have a hopefully a short hearing on the nineteenth. Bob, can you make that? That's this Saturday? Yes. Excellent.
Thank you. All right. I have one matter I was going to ask you about. I made a point, I'm trying to educate myself on all these different matters. One of them,
Linda and I had been through training. Do we need to be on the, do you want this recorded? Well, is administrative,
I think. So you get training, right? We got training. And in order to continue our training, I thought it would be wise to get some of the Andover tax decisions from court. So one that came before us this season was Emily Timrick, and she had won at court five years ago from an excessive amount of money. Well, repeated itself this season with an excessive amount of money, she came to us. And so I wanted a transcript from the trial and it cost me 166.25 But I talked to Dennis, the town attorney, and I said, you know, I think this is an appropriate expense for training because we can issue the transcript to the board. You can read it and get a feel for what happened and why. And with that understanding, he said, that's an excellent idea. You have to bring it before the board and take a vote on it as a training expense. And actually, my understanding from Carol Lee is we're allowed $150
a year for training. So it falls outside of it by like $16.25 or whatever. So she said, make mention of that and they could cover that additional minor amount of money because right now it's out of my pocket. So having said that, I brought with me, because I bought it, you know, I had to drive to New Britain to get it. You have to pay cash or check. That's the only way they'll go through it. Won't No pay credit electronic way. Yeah. So this is Emily Timmrich versus Town of Andover. My son's a lawyer, so he ordered it up through transcript. What do they call those people that do the court reporters? You. Can I make a suggestion
that you just add a quick agenda item, like call it 4A and just say board open discussion?
Yeah, I just, yeah, I just said it's administrative discussion about education, you know. Does that work? Yeah. Do we have the authority to approve this? According to Carol Lee, we do. Because, she said you just Give me extra $16 Yeah, she said you can do that. Just take make, make sure you are aware that the first fee of 150 is covered automatically through training expense. Then the additional amount, which is, you know, because it's $166.25 she goes, you if wanna be fully paid, you bring that up. And as long as the board
Real quick. I don't wanna sit on procedure here, but if you're going to do it, because you're about to make a motion for something that's not on the agenda. So what you should do is formally move right now to add an agenda item, and I would suggest calling it four a administrative discussion, and then vote on it. And then if it's approved, then you can make whatever changes or recommendations you would like.
All right then this is Bob Hamburger talking. I'd like to make a motion that we amend the agenda to add item 4A, administrative and training discussion for the Board of Assessment Appeals.
Anyone second that motion? I'll second it. Thank you. All in favor? Aye.
Okay. The motion carries three-zero-zero. You got all that Eric? Yep.
All right. Well, I would make, I can't make a motion regarding the expense because I bought it. I have it with me and I can drop it to Carol Lee and she can make copies of it. So what is the next motion to reimburse Alan Roy for the $166.25. Make that motion.
And I'll second it. All right, and all in favor. Aye. Aye.
All right. What was that? What was that total amount again?
$1.66 25. You got all that? We'll look for an adjournment. I move that we adjourn. It is 732. Second.
All in favor? Aye. We are adjourned. And you're up to speed on all that Eric. We really appreciate your work tonight. Yep. Excellent. Thank you. I think I can just leave. I don't know.
Right here. See this little leave right down there. We just close the window. Exit out of boom.