Meeting transcript
Inland Wetlands and Watercourses Commission Regular Meeting
February 7, 2022 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
Recording is in progress, and I will call this regular meeting of the Andover Inland Butlands and Water Courses Commission to order at 07:00 on Tuesday, 02/07/2022. I see on screen the Commissioners Larson and Monroe are present, as well as myself, so I guess that leaves only Ed Smith absent. Next item on the agenda would be changes in order to the agenda. I don't have any. Does anybody else have any to suggest in terms of additions or changes in order to the agenda? Seeing none, we'll move to item number four, approval of minutes. First of all, the minutes for 01/11/2022, our regular meeting. Does anyone have comments or changes, corrections, I should say, to those minutes. Had one item that I noted. Item number three on the minutes, which was changes in order of the agenda, the motion was carried by unanimous consent rather than anonymous. We were there. We were speaking. Other than that, I didn't notice anything. Did anyone else catch anything? If not, I'll move approval. I'm sorry. Approve those minutes.
Ask for a second. I'll second.
Okay, second by Commissioner Monroe, and those in favor can signify by raising their hands to signify aye. Okay, the bonus unanimous. Next, minutes from our sidewalk and special meeting, that occurred on January 22. I have no comments.
Okay. Okay, so if we don't have any suggestions or corrections or changes, again, I'll move that we accept those or approve those minutes and ask for the second. I'll second. Okay, so motion and second. All in favor, again, raise your hand to say aye. Okay, and the motion is carries unanimously. That brings us to the section on public comment. And I don't believe we have any, so we will move to old business, item number six. The first item of old business is the application number 2127 for work to be done at Number 3 Lakeside Drive. I see the applicant, Gary McCullough, is on the call, And I note that since our last consideration of this, of course, we've had the sidewalk at that location. And we also received one bit of information in the form of an approval by the Androval Management Association for the lake wall rebuild and dock removal portion of that project, those affecting the lake bed. And we also received some information that Agent Wagner dug out of the files regarding the original permit back in 1993 for the construction of the sand beach that was at issue in the original application. Now, as I understand it, there's been some discussion between Agent Wagner and the applicant regarding this project and trying to get it to the point where we can go ahead and work on it. So, I guess I'll ask first if the applicant has any immediate comments to make on that application.
Well, I guess thanks to for Alma for the approval on the, you know, on the on the rock wall side of things. And looking forward to your guys' feedback on what Joe and I have put together regarding the next steps for the the the, you know, the sand beach.
Okay. I wanted to ask you a question. Will the wall restoration rebuild necessitate working on the lake bed? I know you have permission from Alma to do it, but there is the question of high water and getting the, you know, in others, is it going to be necessary for this work to be done before the lake is razed?
I would say we'd want to get that work done before the lake is raised, yes. Okay,
the sand beach part, because it's going to be perched and away from the lake bed, wouldn't be as critical, but I thought that I wanted to clarify that aspect, okay, because it obviously has to do with the timing of issuing the permit as well.
I Right. Had something. This is a agent Wagner. I just wanted to make you aware, chairman. I'm not sure if you notice because it came in a really late addition I sent to all the commission members was a revised project plan for this application. So it only sent maybe like a half hour ago. Didn't know the right. Yeah. Then a couple of revised descriptions with the with the new perched beach construction, a diagram of the the riprap wall and stuff. So I don't know if anyone had to take a chance to take a look at it. Like I said, it was really last minute. So but you guys should have that on in your email. I got it.
I've got that as well, agent Wagner, but I have to say how disheartening it is to log into my computer to attend a meeting that I spent a lot of time preparing for. Right. And once again, the second meeting in a row, find that there is a updated plan, if you will, that I've had, I have not had a chance to look at until we walk in the door for this meeting. That I find that very disrespectful to the time I spend trying to prepare to have a good discussion on an application.
I would, tend to agree with that. The fact is that, you know, I don't think it's fair to commissioners to, try to comprehend the changes and updates in real time during the meeting. And so, I would appreciate it. I think it would be good in any event if we could, if Agent Wagner could walk us through the changes that are intended, I am going to propose that we defer a vote on this, and that, you know, we may have to ask for an extension on the with respect to the deadline for action on this application. But in any event, as I say, a good summary of the changes in the plan would be useful at this time.
Yeah. I'd like to, yeah, know, move on forward as best we can. I'll apologize up front. We kind of were waiting for the approval from Alma to occur because we knew we couldn't go any do anything until we had that. But we got that over the weekend. You know, they did the best they could to pull that together. And then, you know, we took and looked through all the information at hand and think we put together a pretty good proposal here. And things we've, I think we've covered a lot of concern areas. My goal, and again, I apologize and had no intent to be disrespectful or try to pull a fast one or anything like that. So if we could move forward in good faith here and, you know, if Joe could walk us through this and let you guys digest it and we can come back at the next meeting for more discussion or whatever we have to do. Know, I'll just leave it at that. But this was not intended to be a disrespectful event. Thank you for that. Aaron Joe, do you think
not sure that coming back to the next meeting is even an option because once we approve it, you've got a two week waiting period before the work can start. And that gets us to the time where we're planning to raise the water level in the lake. And so I would like to start the discussion tonight by addressing the actions we're going to take to remediate the violation that we have in existence and has existed since last October where there's a significant amount of new sand added to the lake bed that we need to make sure we get out of there before we start raising the water level in the lake. Right.
So as soon as as soon as it unfreezes, I mean, I try to it's it's like hard as a rock. But I've got resources to to to pull that out as soon as it's we're we're able to do that. So that will absolutely happen. That's the first priority.
That is not listed as the first step in your plan.
I know we had talked about that and had permission or I don't even know if it was permission. It was I was told to do that, and I said, yes, I would do that. So we can add that as the first step, but that that has been a a given from, you know, from the beginning is once I heard this was not a good thing, I stopped everything and was told to really cease and desist and wait for the process to be told what to do.
Okay, so let's take it as read that removal of sand from the lake that will be the first action and will occur as soon as possible.
I'm still concerned, again, this is probably a question that nobody wants asked, But how are we going to get the sand out of the lake bed?
I think it'd be worth going through that, what resources you have available and how you plan on doing it. Yeah, well, it's going to be, we're going to take shovels and put them in wheelbarrows. I got a
lawn tractor. We're gonna pull wheelbarrows up and do that. I mean, we're not gonna bring in any heavy equipment in. We're gonna go down to the level of where, you know, where it was.
That's gonna take quite a few people. You got about 10 yards of sand there, right? About 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
again, I'll just reiterate, you know, the water level goes up starting the third weekend, roughly third weekend in March. Yeah. That's when we close the valve. It takes about a week or two to get up to summer level. Yep.
It'll be later. On the initial application, it said the amount of sand was 10 to 15 yards. Do we know exactly how much sand was delivered?
Well, it was in the the lake bed. So there's there's sand that was put above the the the the lake in the existing beach. And then there was some sand put down below. So, you know, it's between the two, it's 15, but there's probably and these are all estimate. Mean, I I I they're estimates. So it's, you know, saying it's probably, you know, I don't I you know, it's probably 10 you know, I think about it, it's probably more on the beach side. On the land side, it's probably more like eight or nine there, and it's probably, you know, six or seven down below. But it's, you know, it's the total.
It was just my perception from the sidewalk that the majority of the sand was in the beach. But the your yard was covered with snow, so it made it a little bit hard to tell.
Yeah. Yeah, it is hard to tell. But, yeah, I mean, that existing beach kind of goes back further than the than the the you know, how as far out than it goes into the water. It's more, you know, more on the land than into the water. But
I said 10 because, you know, it was just an estimate. So there may be a little bit more there. Know, it was gonna be spread out.
Well, did you, yeah, did you order it by the truckload or did you order, you know, normally I go get my mulch and I buy it, you know, by the yard so I know exactly how many yards I've got. But that's probably a bigger amount than what I would be used to for mulch.
Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was, it was 15, but some of it's on the land and some of it's in the water. So to say exactly how much, I mean, we could just say $50.50 or $60.40. I don't wanna misread you know, I I I don't know for sure. Okay. I understand. Thank you. You're welcome.
So with the understanding that that all the sand is going to be removed from below the high water mark and that the remaining sand, some of it you intend to redistribute above the 200 foot setback line, and some of it will go into the proposed sandbox or perched beach, if you will, then we have then, again, an understanding that, there won't be any sand left beyond, or none of the newly deposited sand will remain either on the so called beach or below the high water mark. Eventually, it's all going to get relocated. That's the intent, yes. Then
Joe, could you bring up on or Davy and Joe, can you bring up that plan? I don't have, for some reason, my male client is refusing to find new male for me, so I haven't even had a chance to look at the revised and the most recent update. So, in order to be on the same page, I'd like to be able to see the page.
Joe, I can share it if you'd like, or you can. It might be easier if you do, Joe, so you can walk through it, but I can share it as well. Oh, yeah, if you want to share it, that'd be good. Okay. Probably More experienced. Okay.
This is the first page is the proposed project plan that's updated But the existing stone lake walls to the north and south end are going to be reconstructed as riprap walls
and they'll slope away from the lake and they'll be constructed. We're not looking at a picture, Joe. We're looking at the project description.
Yeah, know. I'm also looking at the script first. We're just going through the whole thing. So, yeah, riprap top layer, then a layer of fabric underneath the riprap, and they'll be crushed on for drainage underneath. And no machinery will be used on the lake bed. And then the existing dock will be removed, which will need hand tools to remove the two pilings in the lake bed. And then the existing sand beach will be moved behind the 25 foot long by three foot high riprap wall. And then this will create the perched beach and the sand will be contained by four by four posts buried in the ground. So the area will be dug out as necessary to provide for approximately 10 inches of finished sand depth. The four by four posts will be stacked as necessary to contain sand and account for elevation changes along the edges of the beach and then the top of the post will will be elevated above the surface of the lawn. So that will prevent the sand, you know, one prevent the sand from leaving the area and then it'll prevent water that's coming downhill during a rain event from washing any of the sand out. And then that that whole area will be lined with the geotextile fabric, and then it'll be brought up and attached near the top of the 4x4 posts to prevent the sand from leaching out of anything. And then that area where the sink sand beach is will be will be restored to a lawn area.
So if you could move down to the to the next page, this is like an updated site plan shows the four by four perched beach area behind the stonewall. And then it'll shows the filter fabric behind the riprap wall. And then if you go on to the next page, that's the detail, the riprap with the fabric underneath it, and then the crushed stone underneath that, and then the detail for the the the beach.
Why did we shift from a rebuild of the stone wall to a riprap wall? The Gary, do you have Well,
when I was looking at the recommendations, it it said to that that was preferred preferred method is a roof rack wall. That was preferred material.
I would venture to say based on the 1993 photographs that, Agent Wagner found in the files that it was hardly a wall to begin with, and that the proposed RIPRAP barrier, if you will, would be a distinct, well, certainly an improvement over the existing conditions. And it wasn't so much a matter of rebuilding a wall as creating one. And I was, by the way, interested to note that in the top of the in the upper of the three photographs, if you recall those photos that again from the 1993 application, it looks like in the background there's basically a sandbox with very light construction
equipment, The kind of thing my grandson might like to play with.
Well, the thing I liked about the three foot high. Stonewall. Was it created? At least to my mind, a significant buffer between the sand and the lake where the riffrapped wall continues a slope down into the lake. Yeah.
And I did not see in the document where it talked about riprap was preferred, did say natural stone, riprap, or a stone wall.
Well, I I think we were also somewhere we've said that we're gonna have that stone wall tilting back towards the, you know, away from from bottom to top, away from the water, angled back a bit.
But it would not, I mean, riprap wall won't, won't extend above the lawn or above the sand. It'll, it'll be at that level or at the top of the riprap wall.
The sand would be not all the way to the top of that wall. Okay. That's the intent.
I think the, the elevation shows, the the four by four posts, basically, that will be retaining the sand, above the level, it's above grade of the lawn in cross section. And you have the fabric beneath it.
Right. And also is, I'm not sure that that slope indicated in the cross sectional drawing with riprap top there, I'm not sure that the lawn, based on the photographs and recollection from our sidewalk, that there is actually a slope to the lawn at that point. It's pretty flat in that area. It flattens out.
So, so you are not going to rebuild the stonewall, you're going to replace it with a riprap wall or are you still planning on rebuilding it in some areas?
Well, I would say that if there's some some foundation, you know, there's a footprint there of a wall, right? And some of it is stone. I think if there's some of that that can be used and then build above that, you know, on top of whatever we can salvage. So I guess that might be a hybrid sort of approach where it's not a rip and replace for sure. It's I think we're gonna try and leverage whatever material is there and then build up on it. Okay.
Because in the permit that we approved, I mean, was basically to rebuild the stone wall that had been there.
Well, I mean, and then it's because I'm not as the smartest guy in the world. I thought that we could, you know, use this material if we want to use all stone. I'm I'm not married to any type of materials. If you guys are telling me you want roof rack, you want stone, I'll I'll go with the stone. And then.
Yeah, I mean, I think. Riffrapp is stone. It's just a question of whether it's range. And as I say, when look at the photograph of the wall as it existed in 1993, it's not really a wall. There's some stone there, and it's pretty rough, and it's maybe already deteriorating. But, you know, in the sense of trying to rebuild to that condition, I don't think that would be a desirable objective, either aesthetically or functionally. And so, although as the applicant has pointed out, using the existing material, you know, what's still there, would certainly be beneficial and desirable. There's going to have to be more in order to make a sufficient retaining wall out of this, or either way, material is going to have to be brought in. And the question is, you know, is it preferable to have a laid structured wall, or will the riprap have the same function and do the job adequately?
I haven't seen the photograph from 1993, so I don't know what it looked like back then. I assume it's not much different than it looks now.
Well, actually, maybe Abby, could you bring that up? It's the the document is labeled photos. Of Project Lakeside Drive 1993 Photos of Project. It's in the application materials, I believe.
I see pictures of proposed projects and pictures from agent visit. That's 2022. Oh, okay. So those were just circulated by email?
I think so. Yeah, okay. I caution you to this agent Wagner. I just caution you to, you know, not consider. 20, you know 20 year old pictures. Well, 23 year old pictures really as like a pre existing condition. I mean, lot could have happened between then and. Sure. And now so yeah,
right, but we don't have any app. We don't have any application or any permit for, you know, there would have been a per there should have been a permit if any further work was done on the wall between then and now. Yeah, hopefully. It didn't always happen, but
My expectation coming to the meeting tonight was there was going to be a three foot high retaining wall that in spite of the lack of. A lot of other stones there was going to be, you'll have extra stone brought in to build a nicely finished wall, just like we see at all the other places that have rebuilt the wall.
Riprap can be good in a way though, because the angle it dissipates wave energy a little better than than your typical 90 degree. You know, finished more finished wall which can so it can be a preferred method. The gently sloping area kind of does a little bit better job of recreating a natural shoreline. Then the abrupt upright wall that you see.
Yeah, and we have riprap walls, the Dowling's put in a riprap wall a couple of years ago in front of their place. Yep, I,
and I like the wall that they put in over there. It was just a question I'm trying to, I have tried very hard to convince myself that putting all this sand next to the beach is a good idea. Yeah. And, you know, with the wall that was there, I thought I had, I like the four by four post perimeter around it. I, you know, I thought that was a good idea. I thought it was specified in the, you know, the New Hampshire document. It also talks about, you know, swales around it too. I don't know. I convinced myself maybe a swale wasn't necessary if we had the four by four posts or the railroad ties with the three foot high wall. Certainly we could keep the sand out of the beach. I was in, I think I have the pictures from '93 so that if I were to share the screen, could pull it up. The thing that impressed me about those pictures was the size of the sandpile that we used to construct the beach. And I have to ask myself, where's that sand now? And the answer to that is it's all in the lake. And I'm trying very hard because as that document
described, vulnerable lakes are shallow lakes, which ours is very shallow. Climate change, if you will, is resulting in the lake heating up, and so we're having more problems with that. And as a property owner on the lake, you know, I feel compelled to try and make sure we're doing what we can to protect the lake. But anyhow, I came here tonight hoping to have a great friendly conversation and I just got derailed when I saw here's a new plan and hadn't had a chance to look at it. But I'm ready to, I'll listen now.
Yeah, so this is Gary. Know, when I'm thinking of this, the wall, the 25 foot wall, then there's this open spot where the beach was. There. Back in '93 and all this time, there was a beach there was no retaining wall there. There was nothing there. And then on the corner on the corner of the property where the seven seven foot wall, seven and a half foot wall, just a corner there, that was, there was another wall there. So that sand had nothing holding it back all this time. When I saw that and I took into consideration, you know, all these things I'm learning and the concerns and working with the information I have, I really thought this, you know, retaining wall, a beach that seemed like a really nice kind of, not even a compromise, but a solution to, you know, how to do this. And, you know, I'm not a late guy. I'm not a well, you know, expert in all this. And I'm working as we go here, trying to, you know, make make the best plan and taking all these considerations and that's I was hoping and I think we are having a good conversation. So, I I think if we can continue along that is is are we on the right track here to build a riffraff wall if riffraff is no good, but Joe thinks, you know, feels that it's good, maybe not as aesthetically pleasing, but it may be different other people have done it. I'm okay with it. We contain that sand, we remove the sand that's there, because it's not doing anybody any good anymore. And we do that.
The details, this is I think that's where we're at now is the detail part. Are we on the right track? You know, just gotta ask that.
I can't say that we're on the wrong track. It's just, you know, I went out and carefully considered the track that was sprung on me at the last minute at the last meeting and was happy to address that plan. Not that RipRap's, maybe it is better, I don't know. All I could do was go out and study the plan that was presented.
Correct. Could we scroll down to the final page of this new? I want to see what else we've got. Okay, the overview with the, okay, the existing sand beach and the, okay, the sand, the stone bank and dock existing conditions. So again, okay, I'm not quite clear here what would be the setback between the proposed riprap wall and the sandbox or the perched beach? Setback? Yeah, I mean, there's a Would there be
so there there'd be the geo the fabric, and then there's gonna be some gravel. So I, you know, I don't know. I couldn't say it's a foot or so maybe. I don't know.
Okay. But some separation, physical separation between the riprap and the, well, we'll call it the lower retaining post or railroad tie, the 4x4. So, you know, what I'm looking at is, again, do we have adequate measures in place here to prevent sand from eroding from the Perch Beach into the lake? I mean, it seems to me that that's really an essential question about this design. We want to get, you know, the Andover Lake Management Association, which owns the lake says or owns the lake bed, says no sand, okay? We don't want sand. The wetlands regulations say we should be avoiding erosion of material into a water course. So, we're mutually agreed that we don't want sand moving into the lake, right? And the question is, do we have adequate measures in place to achieve that? Now, Agent Wagner, you were saying that based on your understanding of the, for example, the information we have from New Hampshire and so forth, that a riprap wall, sloped riprap wall, would be equally as effective as a vertical, retaining wall in making a transition between the lake and that the design would prevent erosion. Correct? Yes.
Seems to me that that would be a an improvement on the existing condition. I got to look at the plan as a whole and I see I mean that you can tell looking at the little picture that it's obviously filled that was brought in to build the lawn. That's kind of what the the edge of the wall looks like. You know, this boulders that were pushed out when they were grading and then they put the topsoil over it. So I mean, putting the riprap there wouldn't wouldn't be a huge change to the existing condition, but it would. It would prevent some erosion. Of the lawn into the lake, which is good, and also by relocating the beach. And restoring that to a more natural shoreline. I think I mean overall the plan seems like it's it's a net positive.
For the for the short and eliminate the. You know 999% of the erosion risk of the existing conditions. Which you know, even if even if the applicant removes. The sand that he put there, there's there's still some sand there from before. So so by, you know, kind of letting that grow up into a grass grassy area on more natural shoreline. I think I don't know, I think it's just a net positive.
By the way, Jed, you were asking about the quantity of sand. By my top of the head reckoning, the original project must have required about 12 yards of sand to get it to the dimensions that they specify in the permit. Okay.
And you're right. Of that, probably 10 is now further out from the shore. Okay, so the question is, how do we want to proceed? We've got, you know, really we have three components to this. We have, first of all, is the cease and correct, that is getting the sand out from its present location. We're sure that's going to happen as soon as possible. Second would be the reconstruction. Of course, the third part is the removal of the dock. That was approved by Elm, and I don't know that there are any issues with that. That's all handwork, and any application to replace that dock would be a subsequent issue, right? There's no consideration now, as I understand it, to replacing that dock.
That's correct. That's right. Right. Okay. I just wanna get rid of it. It's a eyesore and it's dangerous, and I may not ever put a dock in there or next year. Maybe we'll we'll go down that path, but that's not in that's not in the plan. Just want to get rid of it.
So are there further questions or comments on the application, and I'd like to get some sense of how we should proceed with the application at this point in time.
Yeah. Chair Elliott, I had a Yeah. What you were, like, talking asking, I don't know if that was really answered. The the question of the splash over from the that with the riprap type wall, you know, in the distance between that riprap wall in your your sandbox, if you will. There, there maybe should be a little distance between the wall and the in the in the perch beach. Because to keep that splash over splash from, you know, pulling that sand out of there, even if even if you got a four by four. If there's enough water flying over the over the wall, it's it's going to wash that sand out of there. Unless you're far enough away where the splash isn't landing in the in the beach perched beach. There should be a difference between those two items that you're planning to put in.
I Yeah. I mean, if you guys want it, yeah. My only, I can't say because I was never here during the season. And the water down there is pretty shallow. I don't know that there's, a lot of wave action that comes flashing over. I could be totally wrong. But if from a design perspective, the consensus is that we need some material. I don't know what we would do in between there. We might have to add material in between, right? We've got that fabric there up against the wall to keep stuff going out, but you're worried about the splash and then the splash causing the seal to jump out kind of thing?
It would puddle eventually. I mean, there's a lot. Down that part of the lake, I'm not sure if you get the kind of waves that you see at some of the other sections. I'm not sure. It gets pretty wavy. Mean there's.
Well, instance, on one of the big storms last summer, the water in the lake was, I saw it 14 inches above the spillway level that it just filled up so much by coming in there and that you know that raised the high. Water level. Around the perimeter of the lake significantly.
Yeah, I think the max we got to was 18 inches actually. Okay, that's a big increase.
Yeah. Could you back to page number two of the document on screen? Okay, yeah. In that diagram, it does appear that the sandbox is pretty much buttered at the wall. Hold on a second. I'm getting you that unstable internet message. Appears to have cleared it up. Okay, yeah, the question here is, would a little bit of setback then help in, again, prevent, you know, again, the main objective to prevent sand From eroding into the lake.
So so I mean, so from a design perspective, would that just be like an open space there or what would we have the two by fours there. But what what would we put in between? What would the buffer then be? What would you suggest that be?
Possibly third four by four on top or make it an or something of that nature. I don't know if that would do it. I I'm not I'm not familiar with the riprap wall. So that's, I mean, is it good? Is that gonna reduce the amount of the size of these waves? Or is it gonna deflect the water in a better than a rock wall or it's sloped like that? I don't know. It almost seems like it would be easier for the water to go up up and over that.
Look, I was just this agent Wagner. I'm just looking at the the map of Where 3 Lakeside Drive is on the lake, I mean it's kind of. Step back in a in a cold. A little bit, so I'm not sure. It'd be hard to see. Like the way the the White Lake Wall is facing and kind of faces towards the other side of the cove, so there's really not going to be a whole lot of fetch in that area. So I don't know. Could see how like like flood water might may affect it, but I don't I don't really see how. Like, what wave action just because there's no there's no fetch because it's in there. It's kind of facing the opposite way. It's almost like 90 degrees to the main lake body looking at the picture. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now that's helpful.
Gary, were you planning to have the sand higher than the level of the 4x4s or were the 4x4s going to be higher than the level of the sand?
The 4x4s are going to be higher than the level of the sand. So that'll give you a little more protection. Yeah. So And
we do not yeah, we don't get big waves in the in the cove. It just doesn't have any any room to develop.
One of the one of the ideas that I had from the the preceding plan, and you talk about the size of the sandbox, it looked like from your drawing, was 25 feet wide along the lakeside, 15 feet deep into the yard, then 15 feet across the back, so it was like a trapezoid. Yeah.
On the plan where we had the high rock wall, you know, one of my thoughts was if we made it a 15 by 15 square, that gave some more of the rock wall to protect around the edge so that that prevented the sand from going right around the corner and into the lake. You've eliminated that concern a little bit with the four by four posts going in. When I did, you know, my back of the envelope calculation on the 15 feet by 15 feet, which is three yards by three yards, which is about, you know, nine yards, and you put 10 yards of sand in there, you know, that's a lot of sand that raises that up. No, was five yards by five yards is 25.
But I came up, you know, it was going to be at least a foot of sand high. And so I guess, you know, you're saying you got 15 total. It would be important to know how much sand you're going to move up by the house for whatever future need you have. But you need to know how deep to dig the hole before you start putting the sand in there, or else you're going to get a bunch of sand in there and then you're going to find that it's, I guess you just add more four by fours to it. But it would be nice to have that kind of detail on how deep you expected the sand to be, how many four by fours it took to get up so we can see how much extra height there is on the four by four perimeter around the sand, and that would give us the opportunity to make a good judgment on do we want to put a swale in on the landward side of all the three sides of the sandbox as was described in the New Hampshire document. And that's the kind of detail that I didn't see here.
Yeah, and I mean, I couldn't do the math if you had a gun to my head on how much sand that would take. I couldn't either if you had a gun to my head, but if I was sitting here in the other side, I understand. I like the idea of, you know, I was just going, you know, 25 feet because that was the size of wall. I'm good with let's move that into, know, like 17 or something like that. So we have what's eight, four feet on either side. Yep. Right. And then quite honestly, I mean, I was thinking I was gonna have sand left over that we would just pull back up. If and that would, know, how much sand it would take to do that. I don't know what we'd have to go take that as a homework assignment and go look into that. But I think there's probably enough there to, know, get my intent is to have just a play area for the kids to know, know, a kind of place to hang out. And I like that thought. And it's smaller than what, you know, that's why, you know, we're having this discussion. It's a work in progress. So that's this is good.
Have you actually talked to a contractor or a landscaper that would be able to get in there before mid March?
So I've talked to a guy who's done landscaping for me at my previous house. And he did the work over on for Todd over on next door on one. But I'm going to be putting this out to bid. And but I have not talked to another guy about this. When this plan comes together, then I'll, you know, do that. The guy that I'm working with now, amount of money that it's going to cost requires me to do my due diligence on that side of it and get another bit. Understand. Yep.
So so can we can we get this project done before the lake fills back up? We certainly can get the sand out of there. And if we if we don't have it, you know, we can get the stone wall properly built, but the beach part may have to wait and we'd have to pull the sand up 200 feet. I don't know. I mean, there's a there's a bunch of, you know, lot of unknowns on that right now. And I don't want to be wishy washy and commit to something that I I, you know.
Nope, I understand. The reason I mentioned that is because, you know, normally, we got ourselves into this a little bit backwards, but normally guys, you know, one, the landscaper makes the plan for him and he comes in with a commitment, I will do it next winter, but we're talking about plans, you know, in the July, August timeframe. So that you can get that commitment from the landscaper to come in and do that. With it being, you know, mid February already, I think you might be hard pressed to get a guy to do your rock wall this season. Well,
yeah, I mean, I was, I went up to Andover landscaping and then tried to get somebody to help me up there and nope I never I went there twice and everybody's busy and then in COVID and then then this and then every time you turn around it's you know reason you know stuff's happening all over the world right so slowing everything down. But yeah, that that the timeline is going to be is going to be tough. Now I know Alma gave it was a two year window saying you know this is approved for a two year window. I don't know is that a that a same thing that you guys would do that I could get the work done within two years or and I want to get it done as soon as possible but if if we got to wait for the next cycle with the water,
I mean, that's what we have to do. Well, in just trying to figure out a way ahead, one of the options is that we make, you know, instead of trying to design this during the commission meeting, you know, we've given you a lot of good feedback now. Maybe we work on getting the sand out of the lake, you know, and I'm worried about doing that because the first thing that's going to happen is it'll get soft enough for you to be able to get your shovel in the sand, but the lake bed's going to be so soft at that point that moving a wheelbarrow through there is gonna be And next to so I'm really concerned about just getting the sand out of the lake this year, and it would give you a long time to, I think we're getting close on having an acceptable solution. I just don't know how many hours we can devote to coming up to that tonight. And
when I don't think you'd be able to, yeah, I'm not confident that you'd be able to get a landscape guy to come in and do it once we approved it. And so maybe you just say, and maybe we've got some latitude, I don't know, to have a stockpile someplace without dragging all the sand the 200 feet away. Know, maybe there's a way to cover up a pile of sand so that it doesn't wash into the lake. While we're, you know, trying to figure out the way ahead. I want to work with you. I just Yeah.
No, no, that's good. I mean, thinking out loud, you know, if I put down a tarp or something where we want to put the new beach, anticipating that we'll get there at some point, but then I have to move it again anyway, was on a tarp. I don't know. You'd
have to move it a little further back, but there's a difference between 25 feet away from the shoreline and 200 feet when you're trying to hauling.
Especially with that hill you have. Yeah. Well, that's right. I bought a little little wheelbarrow hookup to the to the lawn tractor. I you probably could put a yard in that and anyways, but yeah, so I've been thinking about all that too. Believe me, I'm on the same page as you guys. I think this was good discussion. Timeframe, sand is priority, design we're pretty close. Joe's been great to work with on this stuff. We get feedback, this feedback will prove invaluable. We can I don't want to speak for you, Joe, but, you know, I think we've got enough here now to, make some adjustments? I'm not quite sure exactly what they are. I have to look through the notes here. And then I don't know. Get get another meeting, get on the agenda again. Again, I I wanna respect your time. Here we're going almost an hour in on on my time. I know you got other business, so I I I don't want to hold you guys up.
Right, I agree with Commissioner Morrison that we really can't spend much more time trying to design this thing on the fly. I think you've heard our concerns then about making sure that you have effective erosion of sand from the proposed perch beach into the like, involve a reduction in, a small reduction in size, little bit of setback in that, and the and the, or retainable. And again, I think to the point that having a contractor who can speak to the details of how the work will be conducted, what measures will be taken, in construction, to prevent erosion, all that sort of thing is something we'll have to address at an interim meeting. Yeah. Can certainly take it upon our agenda for our March meeting. And again, I believe this give you time to get the work done this season, but as Commissioner Lawson pointed out, it's pretty unlikely you're going to find a contractor who would be available on that short notice. Right. I think that the one thing that we might, if I'll have to get back and review, details of our regulations, certainly, if approved, any part of it would be the
removal of the dock, which is, you know, pretty much just a whole separate thing. And that's something which, as you say, is going to be hand tools and a fairly narrow window of being able to, a, dig in the lick bed but not sink in. So, I think we'll have to leave this application for the time being. As I say, we'll bring it up again at our next meeting, and we'll try to keep some communication open between you, Gary, and Joe and Commissioner it develops, and particularly try and come up with a plan that we have time to adequately review prior to our next consideration. Commissioner
Larson, yes. I do have one other question, I guess, about the remediation, and that is, is it worth it? And I think it is to put some kind of erosion perimeter around the sand piles that are on the lake bed right now so that as the spring rains come in, it doesn't, you know, continue to wash the sand into the lake prior to us being able to get the sand out of the lake. You know, and that I don't think is hard to do. You just put some hay bales around the area there. But right now, you know, all the water that runs down that slope from his yard over there where the beach currently is, is just washing more sand into the lake.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't see that as a problem. I guess I just have to find some hay bales. I don't know if I find it, but I'll find it. Or the
you could do the filter fabric, the black fabric walls. Yeah. They stake around construction Silt
fence or hinge. Silt fence, yeah, silt fence, thank you.
You can get that ready made at Home Depot or any other home improvement store, so that would be readily available. It might even be easier to work with than the hay bales, trying to slap those around. But I think Commissioner Larson does have a good point there that we're at a season when erosion is likely to happen and trying to and taking measures to prevent that, now and even while you're trying to move the sand, you know, you're disturbing it, and that's likely to cause erosion. So, silt vents or hay bales to
prevent movement into the lake bed. So, it's a fill fence, F I L L fence? S I L T. Oh.
Filt fence, so yeah, tilt, tilt, got it. Okay. I was hearing F Okay, so it's okay all right. One, just one other suggestion. I don't know if it's inside a protocol or not, but as we put together the next iteration here, Could we have a working session with one of the commissioners to get some feedback perhaps and then and then that way we maybe can short circuit some of the lengthy Any discussion during the
discussion. We have to have our discussions have to occur in open meeting, in public meetings. Okay. Again, you can you can we can have some informal communication, certainly keeping us posted and as I say timely notification so we don't have to try to do this on the fly. Okay. Yeah, I want to I want to eliminate that. Yeah.
Okay. All right, so we'll throw a draft out or have some communication.
Gary, would like to get in the record. We have your permission to exceed our sixty five day time requirement to act on the application. We are allowed up to sixty five days at your permission to extend that window.
Okay. So yeah, I'm not. Yes, I guess you have my permission. Thank you. Thank you.
Thanks for remembering that, Joe, because I had that in my notes too. A sixty five day extension will put us at April 15 from the current deadline. Okay, well, folks, I'd like to move on now to our other, agenda item, our other application, which is 2,129 for the project proposed retail at 5 8th Road. Hold on here a second while I pull up that. And who do we have on the call representing the applicants here? And you are?
Hi, Mr. Chairman. My name is Matthew Bruton. I'm an engineer from BL Companies here on behalf of the applicant. Okay.
Okay. My notes, say that we have had, one minor update. We received a revised plan that included a sidewalk along Lake Road. As far as I'm aware, there have been no other material changes in the plan, and certainly nothing would be germane to our consideration. Is that correct?
That's correct, Mr. Chairman. I'm happy to share a plan on the screen if you want. I can show you that sidewalk if that would please the Commission.
Anybody else have need to see that? I'll I'll look at it. Commissioner Larson,
Commissioner Monroe, anybody want to, pull that up, or can we just? I saw it, man. How did you how did you figure out where to put the sidewalk?
Mr. Larson, the sidewalk was a request or a future request that we're expecting to receive from the Planning and Zoning Commission as it would need to be in the public right of way. We placed it between the existing curb line of Lake Road and the property line for this parcel. So it's a long a long Lake Road in between those two boundaries of the curb line of the property line. Did you had any discussion with Jim Halsey on that?
I spoke to him briefly about it after the first meeting. I have not spoken to him since about it since it's being placed. We obviously have not gone to the Planning and Zoning Commission yet. Yep.
Okay, because I am the chairman of the planning and zoning commission. I don't know where the town was wanting the sidewalk to go, but I know Jim had, asked Jim, do you know where the sidewalk's going to go? And he said, yep.
When I spoke to him, I think you're pretty close. Where is being placed? Yeah. Again, happy to once we get to planning and zoning, if you guys wanted to shift a few feet in either direction, you know, not not a big deal on our part, but took a took a stab at it based on our conversation, and, I think it's in a a good spot for for the moment. Okay. Yep. I do not need to see the drawing.
In any event, I'm not sure that it's germane to our consideration from a wetland's point of view. I have a communication here from Agent Wagner.
You might have froze up on us, George. We didn't hear you.
Okay, can you hear me now? I haven't clicked any controls. Yep. Okay, again, as I say, I have some unstable internet connection, and of course, I don't know when I'm blanking out. Somebody has to tell me. Okay, the communication I have here relates to the stormwater management. But again, this application relates to wetlands and water courses, and specifically to the fact that this parcel is withinat least a portion of the parcelis within 200 feet of the Cheney Brook Watercourse and the associated wetlands. So, I'm not sure that the, you know, stormwater management from the property, which actually runs down to Court Route 6, would be germane to our discussion, which would have to do with any potential impacts on Chaney Brook, which is, of course, on the other side of Lake Road. As far as I can tell, and according to the application, there's no anticipated impact of this project on that watercourse or wetlands, largely due to the fact that Lake Road is at an elevation higher than the project and the parcel, and effectively acts as a berm between the project area and the wetlands and water course. So, unless I'm mistaken, we could act on this application without further consideration, since the application again relates specifically to the brook and the, you know, the 200 foot upland, so called upland review area. Perhaps we should say contiguous area rather than upland in this case. So, to Commissioner Larson, did you have any comment on the application or questions or comments?
Only that Matt seemed to be raised his hand, so he must have something.
Thanks, Mr. Larson. I was just was just gonna say, Mr. Chairman, I don't, I don't disagree with anything that you've said. This site is downhill, and away from Lake Road and Cheney Brook and everything flows towards Route 6 as you said. So I was just gonna reiterate what you said that we have no direct or indirect impacts on the wetlands. Everything is just in the Upland Review area.
So I'd like to make a motion that we approve permit application 21Dash29 Gerrit Homes LLC 580 Lake Road construction of a 10,640 square foot single story retail building with utilities and paid parking and loading area. All right. We have a second for Commissioner Monroe. Yep. Okay.
And I would, again, note that as a condition that our finding that there will be negative or no impact on the wetland or watercourse under consideration. That finding is part of our decision or supports our decision. Okay, so with that, any further discussion? Seeing none, I'll call for a vote, and then we'll do it by roll call. Commissioner Larson? Aye.
Commissioner Munro? Aye. And aye, Chairman Elliott, also vote aye, so the motion carries three-zero-zero. You got your wetlands permit. Now you get to go to the other guys and see what they have to say.
I appreciate your time tonight, gentlemen. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. And thanks, Joe, for your help. Alright.
You're excused from the call. And we can move on to our agenda. Okay, I guess the rest of it is up to Adrian Wagner, the other business, enforcement actions, agent report, so forth. So take it away.
Yeah, the only thing I got that I wanted to share was I received an application from from DEP for permit application for use of pesticides and state waters. It's for Andover Lake. I was applied for on behalf of Alma and they're required the company that's performing the work is required to notify the local inland wetlands agency. So I just wanted to share that with you guys.
We don't have can give you a little background on that if you'd like. Yeah, take it as a herbicide application of some. Yeah, yeah. So we had been talking with, I think it's Northeast Aquatic Services about ways to mitigate the weeds in the lake because of the issues that we had last year with the Elodea. And they had proposed several different options, a couple of which we want to be prepared to pursue if we need to. One of them is the use of the herbicides in the lake. And they've done a pretty good job in terms of selecting the herbicides that they would use. We were very clear that we didn't want to kill any of the fish or have any other problems. And this is something that they've done on a regular basis. The permitting process generally takes about six months with DEEP. So we have to ask them to start the process as soon as possible so that if we find by the end of July that we're having a weed problem, we can elect to bring them in and do something to try and mitigate it. There will be another permit coming through for doing some potential dredging for the weeds as well. That's another method that they have where they do what they call preferential dredging, where they'll go into a weed bed and they'll dredge it out and pull the weeds out. That's something they might do for lily pads or it might do for
cattails, that sort of thing. But that I believe is something that is in your hands. It's not DEEP. They indicated that that wasn't a DEEP permit, that would be a wetlands permit. So that's yet to come. But this one is, just getting it started in case we need it this summer.
Okay. So it was basically an FYI. We don't have any jurisdiction over that activity, so. Okay. And of course, the ongoing conservative nutrients entering the lake, which are, of course, I'm sure supporting that healthy population of Elodea.
Yes. And that's our biggest problem is how do we get our hands around that and clear up any septic system problems around the lake that are causing additional issues? Not to mention fertilizers on lawns. Oh yeah. Yes, that's the worst.
Again, unfortunately, we don't have any role to play in that,
so all we can do is wish you best of luck. And all we can do is educate. That's about our only choice and beg.
Cherry, I have a comment, since we have an Alma member here. With the with this herbicide and pesticides that they're talking about using to kill some of these weeds. Isn't going to work unless we don't keep bringing the stuff into the lake after the herbicides been put in there. I mean, if you, if it takes a year or two years or three years to get rid of those weeds, but we keep doing the same thing that we're doing, which is taking our canoes and our kayaks to a lake in New York somewhere that has all this stuff growing out of control and flopping our canoe back into the lake. It's just gonna start instantly all over again.
Yeah, that's another area that we spend a lot of time actually trying to figure out how we can do it. I mean, we do educate the members on that. We try and make it clear that they, you know, so they all know not to do that and to wash your boat if you take it anywhere else. We actually had a guy that came to the lake last year, he wanted to rent boats to people and we turned them down for that very reason because we weren't comfortable that we could be sure that he wasn't bringing weeds in. So yeah, we know that that's an uphill battle for us. That's something that we do spend some time and energy on trying to figure out, can we put a wash station at the right of way so that they would actually, people bringing their boats in would automatically wash them, we wouldn't have to worry about it. It becomes difficult because then you have to deal with vandalism and things like that. And you don't want to put bleach out and where kids are going to come and hurt themselves with it. So, but yeah, we know that that's a big problem. And it's a question I ask people every time I see them on the lake, if they don't have a sticker on their boat, I ask them, are they a member? Did they wash their boat?
You know, they almost always say yes. So they know, or they know to say yes, I don't know which.
Right. I know it seems like a lot of the things that we do around the lake, a lot of people just don't understand what what's going on, and and that's the reason why they make bad decisions. Yeah, we can more information out there somehow make it more like, you know, we're all gonna do this together because it's not, you know, it's a good idea. Mean, I took the time today to look through some of the chemicals that you're gonna be using. And, I know they say they are safe, but do not forget, somebody used to say that smoking cigarettes was safe too for about thirty years before they finally said, Oh, really, it is not safe.
This is all pretty hypothetical at the moment, I'm afraid we digress a little bit from the Commission's business. You can take that up as a sidebar conversation, okay? Okay, all All right. Then, in any of this, you see, it's right now we're just dealing with an FYI, and it remains to be seen whether any action will be required.
Okay, well, exciting as this is, I'm going to sign off then. Okay, you don't need me anymore. We'll let you go. Have a good night, guys. Hey, Jeff. Bye. Okay, so have there been any enforcement actions or?
Not quite a month. Hard to see anything under all the snow. So I haven't, I haven't heard of anything yet. No, no upland approvals. There's one that I just I just received a permit for all. I'll have to brief you for it on about on the next meeting. I just received the application at the end of last week, so I'll put that on the next month's agenda.
Okay, good enough. So, it sounds like we're winding down the regular business. We have a meeting scheduled for Monday, March 7. Actually, I'll remind you, we've warned that we will have a hearing for receive public comment on our proposed revisions to our regulations, and our meeting will actually directly follow that hearing, and presumably approval of the regulations will be an item on the agenda for that meeting, as well as of course continuing with 2127, which we hope will be in good order and received in advance, well in advance of the meeting, so we have time to review it. Any last minute thoughts or comments? If not, I will happily
ask for unanimous consent to adjourn the meeting at what is it now? We'll call it 08:30PM. Any objection? Seeing none, we can stand adjourned. Thanks, Abby, for being here, and I hope that you will continue to be able to be with us. I got your mail and realize that you're in a hard spot, and will be flexible so that you can be flexible.
Thank you very much. I don't anticipate it will affect my abilities here, don't worry, but I just wanted to let you know, so thank you. Right.
Okay, so once again, stand adjourned, and we can all press the little red leave button. Good night, everybody. All right. Good night.