Meeting transcript
Planning and Zoning Public Hearing and Regular meeting
January 23, 2023 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
It's You got it. You got it. There we go. Sorry. Okay. Good. Okay. Thank you, Eric.
And before we start, Jim Halsey, are you on? I'm not used to this many participants, and I've got way more than my screen is showing, so I can't tell if you're there or not. Yes, I'm the screen with Eric. Okay, very good. So
we called to order the public hearing at 07:00 in the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission. We'll hold a public hearing at 7PM on 01/23/2023, to solicit public comment and answer questions regarding the posed amendments to its zoning regulations. More particularly, the proposed amendments involve changes to sections five a one and section 24 definition of the zoning regulations so as to allow for municipal land uses by way of special permit in the Andover rural design zone and modify the definitions pertaining to municipal uses. So the purpose of the public hearing the town has requested to change to allow construction of the municipal building. This case, a community slash senior center in the Andover Rural Design Zone by special permit. Well, everyone knows the town wants to put the community center by the town hall and the school. That's not what tonight's meeting is about. The meeting is about having the ability by our regulations. To put a municipal building such as a community center in the Andover Rural Design District.
And we mentioned that it would be by special permit. If you remember back to when we were discussing the retail store that ended up being the Dollar General, there was a concern that input from the town was not being taken into consideration in allowing the store to be built there. And so I'm going to put up the proposed changes to the regulations in just a minute here. But if in that case, you know the Dollar General was a small enough store that in the business area we had that listed as an as of right thing, if you will. They could build the store as of right if they met, you know, the small store conditions. If it was a bigger store, then it would take a special permit. And a special permit allows us the opportunity to build something a little bit out of the ordinary in a zone, but it allows us the opportunity to get input from the people of the town before making a decision on that matter. After I get done going through the proposed regulation, I'll invite the applicant, Eric Anderson, to make any additional comments that he would like. Following him will be our zoning enforcement officer, Jim Halsey, and then our attorney Mark Branch.
Mr. Chairman. Yeah go ahead. Yes for the record Mark Branch before we get into the substance of this there's one procedural item I'd like to address if I may. Okay, go ahead. I understand you Mr. Chairman that, one member of the commission is on the community center building committee. Another member of the commission is the spouse of a member of the Board of Education. I don't know if that has anything to do with the matter before us. Don't think it does, but be that as it may, I did confer with town attorney Dennis O'Brien this afternoon. He and I are in agreement that that is not a conflict of interest. The courts court cases have reviewed these things, and, the courts recognize that in small towns the same people are on the chamber of commerce, the church board, the boy scouts, the little league, be everything, all right, and and if things like that were a conflict we wouldn't have a quorum of any board in half the towns of Connecticut. All right so so those are not conflicts of interest they have come before the courts before. The only thing I would ask I would ask each, member of the commission tonight to simply state that they will be reviewing this item, from the perspective of a Planning and Zoning Commission member and without regard to any other affiliations that you may have. I just everybody just go around and say yes I could do. If you can't do that then you do need to all avail yourself. But I believe all of you can and I just want to hear you say it on the record that you'll be reviewing this as a planning and zoning commission member only.
Okay, well I'll start off by saying that I certainly will. Ankerme? Yes, same here.
Scott? Didn't hear you, Scott. Yes. Okay, thank you. Steve Nelson? Yes. Leigh Ann Hutchinson? Yes, I feel I'm able to do that. Okay. I'm also going to ask the alternates because I don't know it looks like we won't have to seat any of the alternates tonight, but I don't know when we will actually act on the application and therefore we'll understand that. Ann Blanchard? Yes. Kevin Arneson? Yes, I will. Susan England? Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank
you, Attorney Branch. After we hear from Attorney Branch on the proposed changes, we'll open up the floor to the Commission for any questions that they might have. They'll have a chance to ask you throughout the public hearing here and then we'll go around and solicit input from the public. If the Commissioner wants to ask a question during the public hearing, we certainly can. I don't want to close the hearing and find out like we did with the Dollar General public hearing that we weren't able to ask the applicant any more questions after the public hearing was closed. So I'll be very careful tonight to make sure that we're all satisfied with that we got the information we need before we go ahead and decide whether to continue or close the public hearing. Based on the number of people, screen shows that we've got 37 people here tonight. I would ask that you limit your comments to about three minutes. Anne Cremay will be our timekeeper tonight. And if once we go around, if somebody feels they didn't have enough time to make their case, we'll go back for round two until we make sure that everybody's had a chance to say what they need to say tonight. So, that, Carol Ann, do you need to allow me to share my screen? And you're muted, Carol Ann.
Yes, I took that off. I do not know if I need you to share. Do I need to press share for you? Well, it says host disabled participants Multiple participants can share simultaneously? Yes click that. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman just one question for Mark Ridge the record. Is Mr. Anderson going to present the text amendments or who?
I was going to do that. You're just gonna review them? Yes. Okay.
Attorney Brandt sets perp this is Eric Anderson. That's perfectly acceptable with the town.
Okay. So everybody should be able to see section five of the Andover Rural Design District. And as we're going down in the first, you know, the first group of items here, it says the following uses are permitted subject to the stated requirements. And if we go down to 5.04, it had public parks, playgrounds, and athletic fields. We moved that into the special permit category based on the thought that some of the lots in the ARD residential district, there might be, you might not want to put a ball field or a playground or a park there. So, gives us a chance to get input and consider input from the public as opposed to having that as a matter of right. So, that's why we crossed that out there and we'll include that down below. Again, this was the draft that I put out to everybody early on, so we'll be discussing this when we got down to the special permit uses. We crossed the word schools out and put municipal land uses in. We were considering that the school would be a municipal land use. And so that's why we did that.
A couple other housekeeping items that that we were going to take care of as we went through. The 5A2, we were going to change the word churches to houses of worship. Every church is a house of worship, but not every house of worship is a church. And so we thought we would make that just a little bit cleaner. Took libraries out of that line because that would be included in the municipal land uses category. So that's the point of that change there. Down in 5A 0.11, we were going to replace private recreation areas with the public parks, playgrounds and athletic fields. These are the same words that were as of right before, but we put it in the special permit category so that we could have a public hearing and get input from the public on that. One change that I would like to revert back to is we were going to cross out private recreational areas
because, you know, we thought that that was included within the public parks, playgrounds, athletic fields. As I was thinking about this, I recognized that out on Route 316, Andover has an archery range. And I thought that probably fit the description better of private recreational area better than park, playground, and athletic field. And I thought that was perfectly acceptable by special permit to have that. So instead of in the proposal where I show that we cross that out, I would retain that and then you'll renumber public parks, playgrounds, athletic fields in beds and breakfast establishments down there. So those are the proposed changes at this point to Section five. This is the Section 24, the definition section. And originally, when we were taking, you know, working with the town on their request for a modification,
I was gonna include a couple of old action items that I had had that I was trying to get done. One of those was to put in the definition of lot frontage. I do not want to include that in the discussion any longer. I don't think that met the intent of what our posting for a public hearing was. And so I think that definition is inappropriate. And so I will take that out. We did include a definition of municipal land uses, building structures, and uses of the town of Andover or any regional public agency of which it is a member, but not including public uses by other agencies or entities. And so you have to ask yourself what is a public use? And so we compared that, we put in a definition for that. Down here, it talks about the public being a building structure uses which are open to the public and owned by or under the exclusion or the control of nonprofit charitable or social entities compared to municipal land uses. So that gives you the other uses, not necessarily owned by the public, but they could be, but they're not the municipal land uses. So that was covering all those other things. And I did think, you know, again, we talked about the archery range.
We had in here the previously existing definition of private recreational area. And I think that does fit the bill for the archery range. And so I wanted to include that. I think that was it for the definitions. That was it for the change. And so, at this point, I'd ask Eric Anderson from the town if he's got any additional comments that he would like to make at this point.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and members of the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission, thank you for allowing me to speak. As you know, the Planning and Zoning Commission is empowered by state law and the town of Andover Charter to act as a combined planning commission as well as a zoning commission. The commission acts with the legislative authority when it writes regulations and creates land use law for the town of Andover. As the former chairman of that commission, I appreciate your efforts in reviewing what is before you tonight. The town of Andover applied to the Planning and Zoning Commission to change the regulations in the Andover Rural Design District. This is the town's primary, but not only residential district. Although most of Andover's buildings and properties are located in this district, our current zoning regulations do not allow for buildings or uses in this zoning district. The town seeks to change this. Put very simply, our goal is to allow municipal uses via special permit in the Andover rural design. That's it. This means that when the town wants to construct something in the residential district, it would submit a special permit application to the Commission. The Commission then reviews and determines compliance with regulations
through its executive powers. The Planning and Zoning Commission is required to hold a public hearing on the application so that everybody can have their opinions heard. By requiring a special permit, the Commission retains the full executive authority to rule on applications. This is how the system is supposed to work. In submitting this proposal for a zone change, I propose the simplest change that would accomplish the town's goal. Like all other zone changes, the town zoning attorney, attorney Mark Brantz reviews the documentation. Attorney Brantz then recommended some additional changes to be made concurrently. In no way is the town trying to change the way the regulations of of the town of Andover treat the Andover Elementary School or the Andover Board of Education or transfer authority from one entity to another. An awful lot of people have misconstrued this somehow as diminishing the authority of the school board or making schools somehow illegal. That was neither the intent nor what the proposal would do. Subsequent to that, the Board of Education hired their own zoning attorney to review the proposed change, and then the zoning attorneys for the town and Board of Ed discussed those changes. And I'm happy to support the changes
that were recommended by the Board of Education's attorney. That's it, and I thank you for your time and consideration. Okay. Thank you, Eric.
Agent Halsey, do you have anything for us at this point? I just want to note that state statutes require that municipalities refer both zoning regulations amendments to both regional planning agency or their council governments in this case and abiding towns. Just want the record to note that this has been done. No comments have been received. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, agent Halsey. Attorney Branch.
And unmute. Yeah that that I the only thing I would say is, in reviewing attorney Williams' letter, I thought that if we if the commission wishes to include the language that he suggested we should probably say including but not limited to the board of education and the only reason I say that is sometimes library boards ambulance societies fire companies Sometimes they're quasi municipal so that way if you have any of those sort of mixed municipal public private partnerships, they'll be included. Otherwise, I think that's a perfectly fine change I think the board of it is an agency of the town of Andover, but if it makes people feel more comfortable to have that called out specifically we could certainly do that.
Okay, thank you attorney branch. Do any of the Planning and Zoning Commission members have any comments at this point or questions? Nope.
I made a statement last time at the last meeting that I feel like we need to leave the school as one of the special permit possibilities, you know, instead of changing it completely to municipal, but have municipal there. We need that and also have school listed.
Mr. Chairman, for the record Mark Brades, I heard that point last time and I I I think I misunderstood it but I still think it's valid. One of the things we realized was that if we take schools out completely we may have prohibited private schools, which I don't think was the intent at all. One of the things that the commission can do is simply retain the category of school, but just have it be private schools, because that is a separate category that would not be included under municipal land uses.
Okay, so if I were to follow what you were just saying, Attorney Branch, we would have the category schools in there, but they would not pertain to Andover Elementary School, it would only pertain to private schools, or it would pertain to both? And you're muted again.
It would be I would suggest that it just be private because otherwise it would be duplicative. If we're including Board of Ed as a municipal as a municipal agency and municipal land use that includes public schools so then we'd be duplicating. But if we say if for schools it just says we take out the word public it would just be private and make it private schools. Yeah. And I have some text to do that if that's what the Commission wishes to do.
Okay and and just you know as we've alluded to a letter from the Board of Ed's land use attorney that gave us some modification suggestion to the definition of municipal land use. If in line with what attorney branch was saying, if we took the Andover elementary school and listed it as a school outside of the municipal land use, then we could not include attorney Williams, I think it was for the board of education's comment. That's correct. That way the school would not be land use. Correct.
And so that is one of the things we'll have to discuss during our deliberation tonight. Any other commission members want to speak at this point?
Hi, this is Leanne. I have a question. Go ahead, Leanne. Yes, for Eric, I think near the end of his remarks, think he said that he was in agreement with other suggestions or any suggestions, and that I'm just looking for clarification made by the Board of Ed. So, it was my understanding that the only thing we were really acting on tonight is to leave the word school or private school in. So I'm just asking for clarification from Eric if he's representing that we're going to include anything else as far as suggestions that were made by the Board of Ed or their attorney.
So, it's obviously the Commission's prerogative on what exact language that the Commission chooses to use from the town's perspective, as long as municipal uses are permitted by special permit in the Andover Rural Design District, The town is happy.
Okay, thank you. I guess that answers my question. Then I guess if anything else along these lines comes up during further discussion, then we'll go from there. Thank you.
Okay. So, any other comments or questions from the Commission? Okay. Then we'll move into the public comment portion. And again, please try to keep your comments to under three minutes. But I would like to start with the Chairman of the Board of Education, Jerry Cremay, if I could. Do you have any comments for us, Jerry?
Thank you for this public hearing, Chairman Larson. I'm going to defer to Doctor. Chris Barnard, our Vice Chair, because at a board event meeting, we nominated him to be our spokesperson. So I would like to defer to Doctor. Bernard.
Okay. There And he is. Okay. In that case, Chris Bernard, I'll invite you to make any comments to the commission that you would like to. Thank you very much. I did get your letter and read it, understand it, and passed it on to the other Commission members to read for tonight as well.
Thank you very much. And so Chris Barnard, I'm Vice Chair of Board of Education, as Jerry said, and I am here to speak on behalf of the entire Board of Education. So that should hopefully limit some of the comments on making us able to get out earlier. We are certainly in support of the changes recommended by the town. We do feel very strongly across the unanimously across the entire board that we would like to see the term schools left in planning and zoning commission, or left in the planning and zoning guidelines. We feel it's important that schools are called out separately. Well, Andover doesn't typically have to deal with that currently. You know, we don't know in one hundred years what Andover will look like, and one of the reasons why zoning laws call schools out specifically is because oftentimes we have some very special regulations that apply to what can go near a school within certain speed distance of schools and maintaining that is important in our mind to protect the safety of the children and ensure their proper education. And so we would support that keeping schools. If Planning and Zoning Commission does not want to keep schools in there, then we also support the changes recommended by the lawyers and making sure that we're covered there. But we do feel that keeping schools in there makes us as clean as possible and in alignment with many other towns across Connecticut and across The United States. That's all I have. Thank you. Okay,
and certainly, you know, in your letter, and alluded to at our last meeting by Anne Cremay, I will say that I was not aware of the responsibility, authority, jurisdiction, if you will, of the Board of Education with respect to the school property. So I still struggle a little bit, and that will be for part of our deliberation further on, is how can we not consider the school a municipal building? And I know there were considerations such as, you know, not everybody can enter into the school, but I think there are probably other municipal buildings like courthouses and that, that the general public does not have the ability to go in as well. And so,
a concern might be that if we break the schools out separately from the municipal building, is there or would someone else want maybe the library broken out onto their own and that sort of thing? And I think I consider the Board of Education to be part of the town of Andover. And as Eric mentioned earlier, we certainly did not and cannot take any of the authority away from the Board of Education. It's just, you know, my question is wrestling with this from a zoning perspective, which is essentially saying, can we build a school or a town hall or a firehouse or a community center in the Andover Rural Design District? Those are all the same. Why school got put in there originally and none of those other buildings that we built? I don't have any idea. But, you know, in my heart, I still consider the school to be a municipal building. But I am certainly willing to work collaboratively to try and reach agreement that satisfies, the Board of Education as long as we're not violating a law by doing so.
Mark Richard Mark Rayds, mister chairman, that's why I was thinking of including but not limited to Board of Ed because you're right. You might have, you know, do we have to list the library board with the fire commission? But I think including but not limited to calls out the Board of Ed for its special role and and yet recognize that there may be other agencies. When you, when, when you have a special permit use, they're reviewed individually. For example, a municipal garage is not open to the public and is a very different use from a municipal library, which is a very different use from a municipal fire fire department fire firehouse. So municipal uses can be very different in the character of their traffic, the volume of visitation, the amount of parking that they need, the locations that are suitable for them, and special permits. Each of those uses can be evaluated separately for whether they are suitable in that location as designed and as proposed. So, I think if you include that that's fine and I'm not sure if I quite understood Doctor. Bernard but I think, we certainly don't mean to exclude private schools or dance studios or karate schools and that certainly can can remain included. But I think that I think that seems to resolve the issue I think. Thank you.
So I stand educated on the Board of Ed's responsibilities and authorities and I certainly want to make sure that we recognize those special authorities that the Board of Ed has. At this point, I'd like to call on our school superintendent, Valerie Bruno, if you have any comments to make tonight.
Thank you, Jed. I know that doctor Bernard is speaking on behalf of the Board of Education. On behalf of the administration of the school, I would just like to add, we are in complete agreements. The letter that was written by the attorney Joe Williams of shipment and goodwin. Did say in his opinion that it would be appropriate to maintain reference to school and the proposed definition. And so I would reiterate that we also would ask of this planning and zoning commission to please keep the word schools in there. Is definitely a lot of laws that pertain to schools. There's a school law book solely to educate us on some of the differences. And so I would just ask that they keep the reference, maintain the reference that's currently in there. Thank you.
So would you be satisfied? I'm sure you have lots of rules. You be satisfied if we did the modification that Attorney Williams suggested is tweaked just a little bit by attorney branch to recognize the board of education in the municipal land uses. Well, not have public school called out by itself. Would that be an acceptable solution?
Well, again, the attorney made two recommendations in that letter. The first was that it would be his opinion to leave school in there. But the other recommendation was that if that was not the case, I know Eric had, and thank you Eric, Eric had said he was not opposed to adding Andover Board of Education, but in the letter the recommendation states that he would define municipal land uses as building structures and using uses of the town of Andover Andover Board of Education and any regional public agency for which its member, including schools, but not including public uses by other agencies. So if both of those sets of wording were in there that were recommended, I understand that that would be acceptable as well. But I just wonder if it's just easier to to keep the word schools and maintain that in there as the attorney recommended. So, again, that's up to the planning and zoning, but thank you. Thank you for allowing me to make my comment.
Attorney Branch, I did not recall in attorney Williams letter
that he wanted to keep the schools broken out as separate. He did not. No, that was not in his letter. What he did say was he wanted to have the word including schools in the municipal end use, and I would just say including public schools or including town schools, and that's fine. And then we just keep schools but that's private. So you have a category for municipal schools and you have a category for municipal for non municipal schools. And that should that should solve it. So then you can allow public schools and private schools. But he he definitely he definitely was including schools under municipal land uses. That was clearly his intent, and I I don't have any problem with that. Superintendent Bruno,
do do you have a copy of the letter in front of you so we can Yep. Do. And I know Eric had posted it. It says, I understand it. I'll just read it for everybody who doesn't have it in front of them very quickly, and I'll stay under three minutes. I understand the intent of the amendment in broadening the special permit use allowed in the ARD and making it consistent with other sections of the regulations. However, it is my opinion that it would be more appropriate to maintain reference to school use in the proposed definition of municipal land uses in section 24. Schools are unique use in that, in my experience, they're specifically listed when they're permitted in a particular zoning district. The proposed definition of municipal land uses also lists buildings and uses of the town and the regional public agency, but omits reference to the Landover Board of Education. By removing reference to school both school and the board, proposed amendment could be construed as intending to make schools a nonconforming use in the ARD, which I'm sure is not the intent. Under the language as proposed, the Andover Elementary School would then be rendered nonconforming as it is not operated by the town or by a regional public agency. To remedy this, on behalf of the board, I propose the following minor tweak to the pending proposal to amend 24.3 definitions, municipal land uses, buildings, structures, and uses of the town of Andover, Andover Board of Education, or any regional public agency of which it is a member including schools but not including public uses by other agencies or entities entities compared compared to to public. Public.
And and I think that that's what I was saying was just to including public schools. And I think because you're right. But he was definitely calling for it in this definition. He wasn't calling for it as a separate definition. He wasn't calling for a separate term. He was calling for it to be in here, and I think that's fine. So,
well, I'm still not sure we're on the same page. One of my goals tonight was to make this a very boring meeting. And so, it looks like that will be the case. And I did get the letter out in going back in, superintendent, you read this sentence here and here's where I have my question. However, in my opinion, it would be more appropriate to maintain reference to school use in the proposed definition of municipal land uses in Section 24. So, did not read that letter as a recommendation to maintain schools as a separate line item in Section five of the special permit categories. That was clearly not his request. So,
and again, I I will Right. I'm trying to use the Covey principle. I am seeking to understand before being understood. And that's why I am not trying to be confrontational or anything. I'm just trying to make sure that I understand what the Board of Ed's attorney proposed to us. And so I do I take it that the Board of Ed would prefer to have Section five with municipal land uses and schools separately. And then with Attorney Williams recommendation, at least the way I read it, to include schools separately to recognize that authority in the definition of municipal land uses. And so when when we get the deliberation at least I understand the differences and I will work hard to. To see if. I think we'd all like to have, I'm looking for that win win solution. And so we'll work hard to see where we can go there. But at least the way I read Attorney Williams letter, he did not, he was not asking to maintain schools as a separate line in paragraph five.
Right. Or on the bottom under municipal uses, there were just those two highlighted ones, both handover board of education including schools. And absolutely, I see Mark shaking his head attorney Mark. Yep, that's absolutely acceptable as long as both of those are in there. And thank you. Okay.
Thank you. One of the things, whenever we've held a public hearing, I have always learned more than I thought I was going to. And hopefully, that'll continue here. I'm going to just go through the names as I see them on the screen and I'm going to run out of screen before we run out of participants. So I'll probably ask Carol Ann to give me some help. The bottom names on here, but I'm going to Jordan Knight, do you have any comments for us? No. Okay, thank you. Jesse Courier. Oh, in again Carol Ann, I see most people have both first and last name listed on here. I think that's given you what you need for your records. Thank you. Head to the next speaker is going to be Louise and and we'll need to make sure we get her last name on there. Okay, so Jesse Courier back to you.
Thank you. I'm in support of keeping schools and the suggestion of including the board of Ed. Thank you. Okay. Louise.
Hi. I do have a question. I'd like to know if changing the wording will affect the future use of the school for any type of community purposes, so like public hearings and emergency shelters?
Changing the No, it would not. In fact, it actually makes it easier to do those things. Okay. Thank you. This is Louise Goodman. Goodwin. Goodwin. Okay. Thank you. Julia Haveralla.
I am in favor of following the recommendations of the Board of Ed legal counsel and keeping the word schools and Board of Education in there, in the regulations.
Is it is that in the definition, Julia? Or is that in the section five separate from municipal buildings, municipal land uses? Section five.
Okay. Thank you. Next person up is a phone number ending in 3334. Okay, I'm going to move on. Bob Hamburger, any comments?
Yeah, I'm also in favor of following what the attorneys do. I'm not going to second guess what these folks, even though everybody knows I was once chair of planning and zoning and had a fair amount of training in land use laws and terminology, defer to the experts, the people with the letters after their name. Now, it came up in discussion, this maybe could be something that you add to another agenda at some other time. But I think that the definition for private recreational areas that we have in glossary or appendix is very poor. It specifically misses the crucial aspect of a private recreation area, which is that it's privately owned. Private recreation area is a very commonly used land use term and privately owned is the most important part of it. But we have verbiage in there about nonprofit
organizations, which is essentially irrelevant because a private recreational area can be for profit or not for profit. I think the biggest example in our town is Andover Lake is a private recreational area. It's something that's privately owned and managed by an organization. It requires residents and or paying a fee to access. So, there are commonly available definitions that we could find and I think whether it's part of this meeting or another one that needs to be addressed because there was a lot of discussion over the weekend on a Facebook thread where Eric had made the announcement for this meeting. And one of the things that came out of there was that people thought that the school playground was a private recreational area and it's not at all. So this is something that needs to be addressed. That's all I've got to say. Okay, thanks Bob.
Would like to, you said you agreed with the attorneys. As we've seen, we've had two different readings of the attorney's letter. So are you in favor of the reading that keeps in section five municipal land uses separate items, schools, or just municipal land uses with the definition to include schools.
Quite frankly, I have no opinion one way or the other, because as far as I can tell they are functionally the same. Okay, thank you. Mary Hoeller.
Sorry, I just joined. I'm just catching up. No comment. Thank you. Okay. Catherine Magdalene Lewis.
Hi, Jen. It's Baldy Lewis. That's fine. Okay. Yep. Well,
and I knew you didn't have enough letters on there to give Carol Ann a chance of getting it into record. What? It's, yeah, it's way too long a name.
I just have one quick question, please, and then I'll offer it. What is negative if you keep the word school in there? How is that perceived negatively? What does that do that you would need to take the word out? Put school in where?
In section five or in where it has BOE. I guess if you're taking it out, you're actually listing out municipal and then the word school, why how was it a deterrent to take the word school out?
I guess I'm what I'm at this is for Mark Branch for the record. We're getting confused about where school is. Attorney Williams has requested on behalf of the Board of Ed that the term including schools be put under municipal land uses, which no one seems to be objecting to. The question was, we're going to eliminate schools as a separate list, but didn't realize that would preclude private schools, dance schools, what parochial schools, whatever. So the idea that I'm hearing now is to keep schools Skip, you want one class of schools is public schools of the town of Andorra and also any other kind of school but to leave them both but one is public one is town one is non town is that what you were asking I'm pretty sure that yeah I I think you clarified it for me thank you very much And Mr. Chairman before you close the hearing I've been playing with the language on my screen if you want at some point I can share my screen and show you what I'm getting out of the discussion but let's first see what other people have to say. Okay and
before we continue, as a point of information, in our section 24, we have a definition of school college. And that definition reads a college, public school, or private school giving regular instruction at least five days a week for eight or more months in a year. And I know, Attorney Branch, you had made a comment that maybe we would eliminate the five days a week, eight or more months a year, but it would seem if, maybe it would seem as if we left the word schools in there by itself, that would cover both the public schools and private schools. And then we would not need to include anything about the schools and the municipal
land use. No, I think that clouds it and I think that creates confusion. Would just, what I was suggesting was that in the definition of school we have just take out public school. So college or private school, whether you take out the five days a week is is a different topic. I mean a dance school for example might not have five days a week. All right, it might have less and who cares? I don't know but but I was gonna have it say a college or private school giving regular instruction at least five days a week or eight or more months a year in the year not including municipal land uses. So we have private schools and we have town schools, and they're both listed as special permit uses.
And the board of ed is expressly listed under municipal as requested by attorney Williams, and schools is put back in requested by Attorney Williams. I think that's where everybody seems to be coalescing around. Yes.
All this different shit. Okay. Thank you, Katherine. Kelly Hagerty. Kelly, if you're trying to comment, you're on mute. Okay, we'll come back at the end and give her another chance. Johanna Dabari. No comment. Okay, thank you. Celeste Willard.
Thank you, Jed. On behalf of the Board of Ed, I'm a member of the Board of Ed and I would just echo what Doctor. Bernard has said as well as Superintendent Bruno. Thank you.
Okay. Caitlin McIntosh. Kathy or Mike Palazzi? And Mike Palazzi, you can both talk.
We're we're both here. Right? We've been having a big discussion about this. We personally well, I'll speak and then Mike can speak. Personally feel that I do like the idea that it's we're one, which is, like, municipal to me. It means everybody. We're we're one town. We're one but but my problem is I don't want the school neglected in any manner. I don't wanna leave it out in any manner. So with that, I have to agree with the attorney and and Chris Bernard that he by the way, thank you. That was a very nice speech. And that's what I'm gonna say that because I love the school, and I love my town, and I just I want everyone to be happy and be a unit. So that's my comment. Mike? Well,
I think I'm gonna go along with the with my wife on this, and I like what I'm hearing. I don't see a great big difference I know. Between any of it, to be the truth. But as long as the school doesn't get hurt in what we're doing Right. I'm fine. Okay? No. I'm talking about the language of its own. Aaron Borys.
Don't know how to use this. Don't know if I'm Hey, there. I would just echo that I'm in support of the Board of Ed's attorney's letter in regard to utilization of school and Board of Ed being included. I also just had one question. Changing this language or leaving the same, does that impact where the placement of a community center would go in proximity to a school and school boundaries and such? If we're changing language, does that change something in relation to where this building would be built? If it's all municipal, does it make it easier?
Makes no difference at all. Each each each for the record Mark Brands each each special permit use each municipal land use would be a separate application so it doesn't make it easier or harder. Thank you.
I have the name Jesse and I don't know if that's that looks like it's spelled different than Jesse Courier so if you're a different person, now is a good time to speak, and we need your last name. Okay, I'm going to move on. Jesse Courier, we gave you an opportunity to speak, did we not?
Yes, you did. Okay, thank you. Jessie was not me. JoAnn Herbert?
I basically am here to listen. I echo a couple people saying that I would hope that we're just one town. We're so small and that everyone would have the best interests of the school at heart with making any decisions as well as any decisions for the town in general. But again, I'm here to listen. I don't see a lot of difference between a couple things and thank you. Catherine Hutchinson. I have no comments or questions. You. Thank you. Kimberly Persson. No comments right now. Thank you. Mike
Beckwith? Yes, as a fellow Board of Education member, I'm just here to echo the comments made by Doctor. Bernard and the Superintendent Bruno. Thank you. Paula King. Hi, Jed. No comment. Thank you very much. Shannon Louden.
Thanks, Chairman Larsen, thank you very much for holding this public hearing and public comment. And it's loud and as anybody else who's on here who knows me knows that it would be. That's just because I'm loud, Jed. As a member of the Board of Education, I certainly defer to the comments of Doctor. Bernard and Doctor. Bruno or almost Doctor. Bruno, our superintendent. And as an attorney, I very much appreciate the involvement and the cooperation of attorney Brantz and the attorneys for the Andover Board of Education. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman for the record Mark Brantz just one thing I want to say in response to Ms. Loudon. Attorney Williams and I go back a long time and he's he is really fantastic, and he and I always always work things out. Glad to hear it. Thank you very much. I see Jeff Murray.
Hi, Jed. I'm just here to listen to the comments and then get a little education as you said too. So no comment. Thanks. Okay.
And that is all the names that I see. Is there somebody that I missed as we were going through? Okay, I'm going to circle back to Chris Bernard, and you listened to all this input. I still am thinking that there is a disconnect between what you want and what Attorney Branch is thinking that you're in agreement with.
Well, Mr. Chairman, how about if I show you what I've got on screen and then everybody can see it. Okay. All right. I'm going see if I can share screen here and get to the right screen. Wait a minute. Okay. One moment. All right, share screen. See if yes this should be it. Okay are you able to see are you able to see what I have here for municipal land uses now? Yes. Okay so what I'm going read it and the bold is what's different from what we advertised. Okay so I mean it's building structures and use of the town of Andover and I was going to put
including oops sorry wait a minute including but not limited to to the Andover Board of Education or any regional public agency which is a member including public schools but not including public public uses by other agencies or entities. For example, a dance school open to the public or a karate school open to the public that's not a municipal land use. So I'm before I leave that any questions on what's up there now. Okay, and then I was going to put under school leaving that definite they were in definitions now school a college or private school giving regular instruction at least five days a week for eight or more months in the year, not including municipal land uses. So this is again this is the parochial school or the dance studio or whatever. Right. And then for the, let me get the other section five. So five would say it would have municipal land uses, the houses of worship we talked about, we would keep parks playgrounds and athletics fields that's there now, but instead of permitted it would be special permit, then schools colleges, so again that's private schools and then putting back in private recreational areas, sticking the reference there to something by, Andover Lake Association or the Archery Range or things of that kind. So that's what I've got from this and I'll leave this on screen until anyone wants me to take it off or see it again.
Go ahead and take it off at this point, attorney branch. Okay. There
you go. So, I still have a concern that the Board of Education feels that we should leave schools is aligned under municipal land uses, but that school is not necessarily a private school, it is the public school, that it's separate from a municipal land use.
Well the way I have it is it's it's just it's just what Jerry Williams asked for it's it so it's a municipal land use is any municipal land use including municipal of board of ed including specifically schools. I could put schools libraries firehouses blah blah blah I could do all of that but I for some reason there's a preference to list schools separately I don't have an issue with that.
Think the school that you're must be, well, go ahead, Chris. I was gonna say, and just clarify from the Board of Education's perspective. I think the reason why we originally approached this was saying we'd like to keep the 5A. Definition of schools areas. Well, we're one of the conforming uses currently per zoning code. We're the correct ones. So if it's not broke, why fix it? First of all, think it like I said, I think it also makes it clear. That said, if we decide not to leave that there, the Board of Education is also supportive of the language that the lawyers have put together. So if we want to remove the one, we are certainly happy with the language that has been assembled.
Okay, and I think it was Bob Hamburger who, I went back and pressed him on which of those two options you want, said they sound about the same to me. That's kind of where I am at at this point. I think it does significantly recognize, no matter which way we go, we have made significant improvement in recognizing the responsibility, authority, and jurisdiction of the Board of Education in the zoning regulations of all places there. Eric, did you have a comment?
I just I actually have one comment for one question for attorney grants, and that is right now this only affects the Andover Rural Design District. We do have another residential district, which is the Andover Lake District. As far as I know, the town does not own any municipal property in the Andover Lake District, which is why I did not include this in the zoning. But what the town does have is the town has a series of structures so that the fire department can withdraw water. Would that? Oh. We we have never in the past applied to zoning when we added those. Is that something that should have been included, and should this be broadened to the Andover Lake zone also to address those concerns, whether we do it at this meeting or at another?
For the record, Mark Brains, there's no harm in adding municipal land uses to the Andover Lake zone. However, I'm familiar with the the the the the structures you're describing, And those would be a pertinent considered a pertinent to the streets. I mean, we don't have to list streets as a permitted use. So anything to pertinent to them. And, and as you probably know those those structures are also exempt from wetlands. So yeah, it's in the long term. I mean, regulations have needed a major overhaul were since you hired me in 1981. And, so, yeah, those are the kinds of things that we've missed. And, but I, I do so yes, it's I mean, you may at some point want a fire substation or a school bus waiting a building in the Andover Lake zone and currently municipal land uses are permitted in that zone and they should be. So yes that's that's that should be on our to do list. Okay, thank you. That's all I have, Jed. Okay,
thanks, Eric. I am going to go back to ask the Commission one more time. If now that we've heard from everybody from the public, if there are any other questions or comments from the Commission members. Okay. I have
none, Chad. Yeah. Hearing none, we get to the point where we will make a decision on continuing or closing the public hearing. And I guess I think I understand the issues. I think we're close with a couple of tweaks that might make some folks happier or I think we could probably satisfy everybody, might not be exactly the way they want. But is there any commission member who thinks at this point we should not be closing the public hearing? And hearing that, I will ask the Commission for a motion to close the public hearing.
I'll make a motion to close the public hearing, Jed. Thank you, Steve. I'll second that. That was Kevin? Scott. Scott. Okay.
That was Scott. Yeah. Didn't see the little box right up. Thank you, Scott. Any discussion? And again, we haven't seated any commission members, so I will say all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any abstaining? Okay, the public hearing is closed. Okay. And we will move now to open the regular planning and zoning meeting. So, is 08:09. I will call the meeting to order. Next up is roll call, seating of alternates. I see President Ann Cremay, Scott Persson, Steve Nelson, Leigh Ann Hutchinson, and myself. So that is the five regular commission members. Also present are Anne Blanchard, Kevin Arsenan, and Susan England. So none of the alternates will be seated for tonight's meeting. Item three is addition or changes to the agenda and I would like to add an item five C under new business to discuss the planet conservation and development submissions. Are there any other changes to the agenda? Hearing none,
I'll make a motion to approve the change to the agenda to include the discussion under new business, Planet Conservation and Development. I'll second that. Thanks, Scott.
Any discussion? Hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any abstaining? The motion carries five-zero-zero. Next item up is public speak. Anybody didn't get their chance to speak at the public hearing who wants to on anything? Now's your chance. Anybody want to say something now? I see Bob Hamburger wants to speak. Go ahead, Bob.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the public hearing I mentioned that there was a lot of online chatter about the subjects that was discussed on Facebook thread. And I have to say it was encouraging and heartening to see so many people that were interested in land use issues. And we know that these things can be confusing, they can be complicated, they can be dry, but this was a fairly impassioned set of discussions. That was the positive side. The negative side was that there were a lot of people who had a lot of misconceptions about what the regulations said, how to interpret these things. And I don't blame them. I mentioned when I was on P and Z, I had to do a lot of homework and get a lot of formal training and to his credit, Eric chimed in and said that anybody who's not a member of the commission who was really interested and could demonstrate their interest by doing some of the online courses, Eric would then pony up the fee for the in person all day long land use for commissioners or I forget the exact title of that, that I went to a few years ago was extremely, extremely valuable.
March 11. Yes. March 11 all day, you should have the brochure by now. Well, I've been there so I don't need to. What changes?
Yeah, so I just want to point that out that and I exhorted a couple of the people who were the most vocal there that if they're really concerned that the town is always looking for volunteers that we are a small town with limited resources. It was just my way of telling them to put up or shut up. So that's all I wanted to contribute at this point. Thank you for the floor.
Thank you, Bob. Any other public comment at this point? Hearing none, we'll move on to new business. And first item up is the proposed amendment to zoning regulations. Amendments to section five and twenty four of the Andover zoning regulations so as to allow municipal land uses uses in the ARD zone and amend definition sections of the zoning regulation so as to clarify intent. Just for the record, now that we enter into deliberations on the public hearing, only those commission members that are actually seated can discuss the item at this point. And so that's where we are. Mark Branch, you said trying you to keep up with what you thought the discussions were reflecting. I guess I will let you put up your first shot because I think there's still, as much as we tried to nail down what attorney Williams' letter really said. I think there was some confusion in there. And I would just like I want the commission to do the very best job that we can tonight. I'm gonna get Ankrami take the first crack at what it should say, but since you said you were keeping the text up to date, I'll let you
give it the first shot. Yep, Mr. Chairman, what I'm wondering is because there has been a lot of discussion here, I'm wondering if you should don't know if there's a deadline here, then maybe I would email you what I have on my screen. I I showed it to you and I can show it to you again of course, but I'm wondering if it might be better if I email it to you and at your next meeting you have it in front of you. It's up to you.
I know the I know the town was was hopeful that we would move this along just as quickly as possible.
I mean, I have it here. I can walk us through. I know you do and
I we've got interested crowd here tonight to watch what we're doing.
All right I'll then I will share screen and I'll just walk you through what I've got. Okay. Okay and all right so that's there we go. All right well let me take this out a minute I'm all right you should be able to see my screen now. I can yep. And I'm going to take that out just because I was I had this is what I call a working copy. So the blue is what you advertised. What I have now is what is in red. Mhmm.
And by the way, warnings I just picked up on, I realized when we added Andover board, right, or any regional publications of which it, that makes it sound as if only the board and not the town, which isn't what you meant. So I put of which the town or the board is a member. Right so the town could also like a dog kennel you may be regional dog kennel some towns are health health district okay. Now I have including but not limited to the annual Board of Education or any regional age of which the town or the board is a member including public schools but not including public uses by other agencies. And I'm just gonna skip down to public. So this is what you already advertised. Public is defined here is a non municipal use. A religious school, a karate school, a dance school, anything of that kind. And then after school college, I just took out pub so a school college is a college or private school, and now we exclude municipal land uses. So So we have two classes municipal land uses include public schools, schools and colleges are private schools. They're both allowed in the zone we're getting there but they're separately defined and what I'm going to do for now just for these purposes I'm going to take that out because that's not what we're looking at anymore.
So this is what's on screen and then the other screen is okay back up to this is section five where public parks playground athletic fields okay that is being moved down to public as a special permit so it's still there it's just special permit We add take out schools, municipal land uses, so public schools, the house of worship we already talked about, and then we add back in schools, colleges. These are the private ones, and we add back in private recreation areas. So that's not really a change because that was already there. Private, they were already there. I just and I I by the way, I could I could make this easier by putting public, but I you know what I can do? Hang on a second. I got an idea.
No it gets even simpler I hope. Yeah and then we're gonna. Best course I took in high school folks was typing. All right so now you see what I've done now so we left in private recreation areas, schools, colleges, and then public parks, playgrounds those are public meaning a non profit so they remain allowed in the zone by special permit. They're now permitted they end up a special permit and we administer land uses. So anyone who wants to see any of that anywhere again it's your call.
Okay, I think everybody understands what you've displayed on the screen. So, at this point What?
If the Commission feels that we should be discussing this is the change based on our discussion tonight, We can make a motion. I'm looking for a motion to approve the regulations as just described by Attorney Brantz.
I'll make a motion to adopt the language as described by attorney Brantz. Okay. Thank you, Steve. And
that has to say you have to pick an effective date and the effective date must be no earlier than the date that you can publish. So I mean, I don't know. Jim, how long did it take you to do a legal notice of publication?
Get Get a a notice notice in by the end of the week. So you could say, to be effective February February
February 7 or what do you just pick a date.
Are we not required to allow for the appeal period on that? No.
My mistake. No. In fact, no. No. Not at all. The effective date the effective date remains the same unchanged but every every motion to amend the zoning regor text must include an effective date. So if you say February 7, you're fine. Yes.
Okay so that date is in the motion. Carol Ann you've got the motion? Yep You're muted Carol Ann. You're muted. Steve
made the motion and did somebody second it? Scott Persson seconded the motion. And as seconded it was with the February 7 effective date? Yes.
Okay, so we've got a motion on the table that's been seconded. Now comes the fun part, is deliberation on the motion as presented. And I think it was Catherine, well, asked the question, what does it hurt if we put schools separate from the municipal land uses as a separate category and have it referred to the town of Andover Elementary School. And the only thing I can, in my answer is I'm not sure, so I'll give Attorney Branch the option to go after I get done. But I heard Attorney Branch talk about it being duplicative because the school building is a municipal building. And so, to give it a separate category in addition to that might be wrong. Certainly, I think the intent I would like to to, you know, there's a side of me that says, if the school board wants something that way and it doesn't hurt us, I'm ready to go there. Eric Anderson mentioned his goal was to modify the regulations such that we could build a community center in the ARD. The words that Attorney Branch put up there reached that goal and reached what I think I heard from many of the public
speakers who certainly are in favor of they like our school. The downside is that then it gets a little muddy with respect to private school, public school. I don't know how to straighten that out exactly. And there's the legality of having a municipal school categorized outside of that. You know, if it's all things being equal, I would happily go with what the Board of Education is requesting because we are not trying to do anything untoward towards the Board of Education. And I want to make that absolutely as clear as I can. My concern is that is there anything unwise or not legal about including the public school in a separate category from the municipal land users. And Attorney Branch, I have to
go to you. I can read Attorney Williams' letter both ways. I think he asked for a change to the definition not to include the school section in there, which is different than what I heard Ann Cremay talk to us about, what I heard Jerry Cremay talk to us about at the last Board of Education meeting that I watched, and Chris Bernard and the school superintendent talked to us about tonight. So all things being equal, I think I would like to go with them. I'm just not sure if that is the wisest route legally, if there's something I don't know that would get us in trouble by going that way.
The the way that we might get into trouble is that we might have be talking about multiple principal uses which is kind of a confusing area of the law. If if you group together, you know, one of the questions you got during the public hearing was, you know, what if we use a school for a temporary shelter or a voting area or something like that? Okay. And my response was that as it's drafted, that would not be an issue. I would worry about having a separate language category for school and it gets approved as school. Does that mean then that you can't hold meetings in school? That you can't have a blood drive in school?
Does that mean that you can't have, an emergency shelter in school because that's not a school? So I think that by grouping them together, you allow for those kinds of multi use things. And, and I think by the way, that's why attorney Williams expressed his proposal the way that he did. I mean, he and I discussed it And I think that that's the sensible way to do it.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Attorney Branch. I had a thought and it zipped right away. So maybe it'll come back later on. Any other commission members have any thoughts on the item here? Let's see.
Ed, I think the language as proposed accomplishes everything that the board of ed had brought up. If we the only confusing area, I think, was section five, whether schools was listed separately. And I think as was pointed out, you you come up with a redundancy situation at a minimum, or worst case, if schools are listed separate from municipal buildings, then the question is, why are they listed separate? Are they not included in municipal buildings? And I think that could be very confusing.
Okay. Thank you, Steve. I agree. And it also would require us to do something different to continue and maybe it would be just put private colleges and schools in that list of special permits. The thought that I had that went in and out of my head is that, you know, as we discuss things like blood drives, voting meetings in the school. The way I understand it is that is a Board of Education decision whether or not to allow those as it is now. And certainly if the Board of Ed works closely with the town, I think they both recognize what's best for the town and acts accordingly. One of the things that I know I still have confusion on, and I was reluctant to bring this up tonight because it gets away from the issue of just building a school or building a community center in the ARD is a discussion I heard at a board of selectmen meeting on the January 9, I think it was. And the discussion was about the cool school summer program. And what I heard was the town felt they should have some say in that because the town provided insurance coverage and it is a town
building. Based on what I heard recently and that made sense to me when I heard that. Based on what I had heard recently before that, I would say, no, that cool summer program camp would have fallen under the Board of Education's cognizance. And the comment that I heard was, you know, that the people that were running the program were talking to the Board of Education. They didn't recognize that the town had something to say about that. And so I can I agree that, you know, no matter which way we would go with the wording in the zoning regs, the question that is probably out there is, what is the relationship between the town and the Board of Education, and I consider the Board of Education part of the town,
as Kathy and Mike Palazzo said, you know, we're all one? What expectations does the town have for the Board of Education making decisions about the use of the school and the school property? And what expectations does the Board of Ed have that they should work with the town because the town has some say in that and I don't know what that is. Anne? Yeah. Go ahead, Anne.
The town in a way owns the buildings, but the board of education has by law control over their buildings and that's their responsibility to take care of the buildings. So the town is like second when it comes to the buildings that the school is in. The school is responsible as long as there is a school with children in it until that school no longer functions as a school, the school board has control of that building. The town can come and ask, can we use this for this occasion? And the school can say yes or no, as it's needed, but it's definitely by.
Yeah, you're cutting out Ian, I don't know what happened, but we're not hearing you.
School was getting their own insurance so the town doesn't have that anymore over them and they're using the school building, not the town building. They're not using the town hall, they're using the school. So that was, I know, I heard that meeting,
is way off because it is the Board of Ed that's in charge of that. Okay.
And you say the Board of Ed is now responsible for the insurance over there at the school? I think COOL,
which is their own program, has the insurance, if I'm correct. Is that right, Valerie?
Jesse Courier is on and she's in charge of the finances and the oversight of that program so she would be the best in luck Jeff Boyd has. How does this relate to the text amendment? I guess He was thinking I don't
Okay. I withdraw my comment. It's going to sneak back out to the whole discussion on whether or not we should close the public hearing. And so we limited ourselves from the ability to have that discussion. I guess we are where we are. Okay. Bad on my part. Should have kept my mouth shut. Any other commission members? We've heard from Anne, we've heard from Steve. Leanne? No, I I have no other comments. Okay, thank you, Leanne. And Scott Persson, any comments from you? No, I'm not set, Chuck. Thank you. Okay.
So I guess the language that Attorney Branch put up there for the proposal certainly recognizes the authority of the Board of Education. I think it is consistent with what the Board of Education's attorney, Attorney Williams, requested that we do. And I understand that it might be a little short of what the Board of Education and Ankremay thinking should be there, as well as, you know, some significant portion of the members of the community that weighed in. Any other questions from the Commission before we vote? And again, the vote is on the modified words that Attorney Branch put on the screen. Anybody want to see those again before we vote? Yes, yes, if we could, please. Okay.
Get those back up again. It started to get unstable on screen so I closed it but I it's still there I could I could open it back up Just one second sorry. There we go. Yeah so this is can you see it now? Oh wait it failed to start. All right wait a minute let's try it out. I don't know why. Wait a minute I can see it on my screen. I can see it on my screen. It's let's see something no it's not letting me do it now. I can see it let me try something else let me see maybe I switch over. Try again. I'm gonna exit out and just try again. Okay there we go let's see if that works. Okay good there you go okay so here's here's municipal land uses this is the definitions section and let me know when you want me to move on.
You are muted, Ann. So if you were asking to scroll down, we didn't hear it. No? Okay why don't you go ahead and scroll down Mark. Okay and then there's public
that there's no changes to that from what you advertised and then school still kept as a separate definition but now it's a non public a non municipal school I should say not non public a non municipal school So it could be a satellite of Manchester Community College or Prince Tech or something could be that. So that's definitions. Let me know if you want me to go to five. Yep, go to section five. Is there five ARD?
Again public parks play event just We still see the definitions Mark. You don't see Section five ARD? No. Nope. I'm going to try to refresh this then. Now?
Yes. Now we do. Yep. Okay, all right. Good. I thought it would flip from the other screen. It does. It made me switch. Okay, so you see there's the Parks playground just moved down. Municipal land uses the house of worship and then so private recreation area stays so no change. Schools colleges but now we're talking private and we put back in public parks, playgrounds, and athletic fields now as a special permit use.
I still don't get why we'd take up change that schools thing to colleges. Why not still include public schools?
Because it's a municipal land use. There you have two overlapping definitions. I can't see the problem with that, but
What are people applying for? You you can't have you can't have definitions overlapping. They've got to be distinct categories. Okay.
Okay, I think you can close that out now, Mark. Okay. Any other questions or comments?
So, then you're assuming that the school, Andover Elementary School is a municipal use. Is that correct? Yes, correct.
Correct. And I read that to be consistent with Attorney Williams letter. Yes. On the subject. So, this point, I'm going to call roll call vote. Anne? I guess I'll say aye. Scott? Aye. Steve? Aye. Leigh Ann? Aye.
And I vote aye as well. The motion passes 500.
I will email that to the zoning office now so you have that text.
Thank you everybody for your participation tonight on that. I know it's not exactly what the Board of Education was looking for, but I did hear that the Board of Education would be satisfied with that answer and I hope that that is true. Going on to new business item 5B, the Connecticut Bar Association workshop for land use agencies, Saturday, March 11. I sent the agenda for that out to the various commission members. And the thing that you know we need to do is, you know, last year, last time it was held, Agent Halsey submitted on my behalf anyhow the attending. I went to try and apply to attend and it wants, you know, payment at time of application. And the town I know is going to pay for that training. And so I'm thinking that Agent Halsey is going to have to submit an individual application for each of us, but he's going to need your name, address, and email address so they can send you the big thick book that gets put out worth its weight in goal for doing land use business. And then they need your email address because they'll email you the link to join the zoom training session. So Jim's going to need to get that in by the February 15.
And by the way this as as was two years ago when it's over they will also email you the recording of the all day and during the day you can ask you can use the chat function to ask questions. Two years ago we answered about 150 questions and anyone who participates will also get a list of all those questions and all the answers.
Yep, so everything you ever wanted to know about land use you get your chance to ask for free and so that's a good deal too. But let Jim know you know by prior to the February 15 so he can get the thing in there and that's before our next meeting. So that's why I wanted to talk about that tonight.
Jed, if I may, I would also say on the town's behalf, this is a fantastic program. And as you all know, you are now have a requirement for a minimum amount of education for a land use member? And attorney Brandt could probably speak to this, but I suspect this would check that box completely in addition to be an absolutely fantastic training opportunity.
Unfortunately, the the OPM published its requirements after we had set this agenda. You have to have one hour of affordable and fair housing. This program only does a half an hour. So yeah that little next time next time we'll fix that okay but clear Connecticut land use education research is also doing its advanced land use Those are going to be three Thursdays in February. And the third one of those will be an hour and a half on fire housing and fair housing and housing opportunity. So that's clear if you just look if you have Connecticut labor's education UConn clear it'll show up that's going to be in February it's like three successive Thursdays for an hour and a half each night and I'll be doing the affordable housing piece by the way but yeah everything else except that last half hour of affordable housing will be met by by the March 11.
Okay so we're going to move on at this point to five C, the plan of conservation and development. Last Wednesday was the due date for any bids to be submitted for assisting us with the development of the plan of conservation development. We got two. I sent the link out to all the Commission members so you should have that. The question is, and we have been granted authority, if you will, by the Board of Selectmen to be the deciding body for which one gets selected to assist us with that. So, you know, the next comment is, so how do we do that? You know, talking over with Eric, it seems like it would be good to have each of the firms that submitted a proposal come talk to us so we can ask them questions, get to know them a little bit. We did that with the town engineer
solicitation. I thought that went very well. And there's only two, so it won't take very long. But I thought both the applications were very good. One came in at like $52,000 The other one came in at $70,000 But, you know, we really want to get the team that's going to do the best for the town. And Eric said he would go out and negotiate, or at least attempt to negotiate a better price if we picked the more expensive guy. The other comment I have on them at this point, and I thought they both had good write ups, they indicated they would be complete quicker than I thought. So, one guy said he would be done in a year, the other guy, you know, fifteen months. But one of my goals for planet conservation and development is that the date on it is in 2025. You know, we're only required to do this every ten years. I want to get our full ten years money's worth out of the last one before we reset the clock. And so, will be part of the discussion is making sure that it ends up with at least January 2025 on the cover page so that we get another full ten years of credit. Anybody got any thoughts on that being the right approach to is the next step to help us select? And I guess, you know, I was thinking we would do it at a special meeting so that,
you know, it's just us. We would do it in the town community room so that, you know, we do it in person, actually see the folks and get to know them. Okay, question I have for the commissioners. I know that my schedule is pretty flexible because I'm retired. I don't know if, you know, other folks that are still working work from home is, you know, would it be possible to hold a special meeting on an afternoon and get everybody in attendance or is that a nonstarter and we need to hold it sometime in the evening? Steve is the representative from the working society. What's your thoughts on that? I can generally accommodate
during the work week. The problem I have is I'll be traveling the week of February 6 and also You've done it as a board. It will have to be noted. February 25 through March 8, I believe.
It was a separate group The of people seventh. No, the eighth. Board.
How about some of the rest of you guys? Scott? Just let me know when I'll be there.
Stay again, Mark. Do you need me to stay? I don't. I think we're in good shape.
You very much for your help tonight. Always a pleasure. Alright. Happy New Year all. Talk to you soon. Thank you. And by the way, that text is now in Eric's box and also in attorney Williams box as well as in yours, Jen. Okay. Thank you. Good night. Good night. Thank you, Mark. Pleasure. Chad, it's Carol Ann. I'm
sorry, it's Carol Ann. I'm available, right now, Thursdays and Fridays during the day
if that makes a difference for you. Okay. I don't know that it would. We didn't have anybody other than the interview team for the last one, but I'll think about that
and let you know. Thanks, Carol Ann. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to suggest one thing, and that is that you consider adding one member of the Conservation Commission to the review panel, since conservation is one of the main focuses of any plan of conservation and development. I think Mr. Gruner would appreciate being part of the review panel.
And I was also thinking that you might be part of that team, Eric.
If you choose to, I would be willing to. I would certainly go to the presentations, whether I'm a decision maker or not is up to you. Board of selectmen gave you the power to make that decision.
You know as a Commission yep and one of the things I need to come over and discuss with you is, I saw in the back of the proposal they have there are expectations of the town and I want to make sure we're clear on our ability to provide and meet those expectations. Understood. So, we'll be talking more about that. Leigh Ann, did you have any input on that one way or the other?
Just my schedule is fairly flexible. I know, Jed, these meetings work out well in a Zoom environment, which I think has been your preference for a while. So, if you'd rather do it that way, I have no problem with not you know, seeing these people at an in person meeting and just having a Zoom meeting.
Okay, so I do think there's, you know, one of the things that lacks in a Zoom meeting is that ability, you know, to have a conversation with somebody, get to know them a little bit, and that sort of thing. So I would like it'll be, you know, a small group of people, you know, the six or so of us that are talking to them and, you know, they'll bring one or two guys over. So, you know, there's eight of us spread around in the community room. I think that's a pretty safe environment. Okay, let me work on some dates. I heard a willingness to go in an afternoon. I'll look at the town schedule to find out, you know, when the community room's available and see if we can reach out and I will pick some dates, run them by the commission members, see if we can get a consensus on that before I go out and ask the responders what their availability might be. I think they'll work pretty hard to come in and whatever date we pick for them to show up. Okay, next item up is whole business. Jim, you want to, tell us what you know about that?
I did get a letter from Chris Bell today. It was not posted on the website, but if Caroline, are you able to to put that up on the screen?
I I didn't get the attachment in your email. I only got K. The information about the, the notice.
Okay. Alright. Yeah. Chris Bell indicated that he okay. A lot of work has been done. A lot of the grading has been done. It's substantially complete. Like, he proposes to do finished grading, go back into that hill where where the material had been removed, go back. I couldn't pin him down on the exact number of feet, but go back far enough so that he can close that hole up and go to the left of the opening. It's well within well outside the wetlands review area. Or well outside the it's approximately a 195 feet currently. So that shouldn't be an issue. And hay we'd hay and seed it. This is only the next two weeks.
At that time, we'd get finished grades from a, an LS, and that's pretty much it. So we're looking at probably a two week time period max. And I would it does appear that the site does drain in accordance with the plan, but I'd like to I will verify that when I have when it is complete and when I have the the as built, which will show the the site without the drainage basin, etcetera. That's about it. Any questions? I'd be happy to answer, or I'd like to, I would be happy to try and answer.
Well, your comment that you had a hard time getting pinning him down on what he was doing with the hill, you know. I think we were all surprised when we saw the big carve out in the hill, which wasn't in accordance with the plan. And I think, you know, there's a lot of right answers. We just like to know what he plans to do so that if it's something outrageous, we can say, no, we don't like that. You know, that's not what you agreed to do. And that's what we're having a hard time getting him to tell us. You know, what is he going to do back there?
He's going to use the material towards on the left hand side of that mound, the mound that's exposed, and go back approximately fifty, fifteen feet in order to close it up and, and have an angular repose that, that will stabilize the mound.
Okay. And we're still looking for, you know, an as built Yes. As done, you know, signed by a professional engineer that says the elevations are correct per the plan and all that stuff. It'll be signed by an LS, licensed surveyor. Okay, very good. Yep. Any other questions for Jim on the gravel pit? Okay. Next item up, approval of the meeting minutes from 12/19/2022. And I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from December 19 regular meeting. I'll second it. Thank you, Anne. Any discussion on the minutes?
Well, I saw my name was misspelled a number of times. So my name has an E. So under section two with members present, that's one spot. Under new business, top of the second page, the results of the vote, It's there.
It's been changed under 6E, the second line. Okay. Hold on just a minute, Ann. Yep. You said your name was misspelled. I don't see that. Now, I was worried about me misspelling your name all the time because my computer used to put that little mark above the E and now I can't get it to do it anymore. Well, on my copy of the Oh, minute okay, I got you. It's the first name, not the yeah, I got it. Okay, Ann, A N N E. I thought we were missing the E from Creme. And I said, no, that's got it. Okay, I got it.
And yeah, the creme, the computers always want to put the accent on the first e. It's on the second e, but it's very hard to get a computer to do that. And also the angle is different.
Okay. Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's technically challenged with the inability to get that whole mark up there.
You have to know how to get the special characters to get it. So I usually just live with it as C R E M E with I no would like my first name spelled I
agree. Okay, Carol Anne, you'll take care of that. I will address it immediately.
Yeah, and then on the last page, there was another spot where I had made a comment under 13 and it's in the first place there. Other thing I had noticed in the minutes was on the third page under, I think about Dollar General, in the middle of the page about putting up a fence, and it would run Route 6 to be a screen to the tree farm? I don't know if it would be run from Route 6 or what the word was supposed to be there. It could be either to or from. I believe it was from, Ruth says. I'll correct it. Thank you. Any other comments, Anne? Nope, that's it. Anybody else have any other comments or corrections?
Yes, this is Leanne. I had this open at one point and I guess I accidentally closed it. I think it's on the second page. I'm trying to do it from recall in the middle where it mentioned Steve Barnett. I think there's an e on the end of Barnett. I think it's just, you know, b a r n e t t. Oh, third page.
Third page? Okay. And then also, it might also be on the third page. My name is I know there's several ways to spell it. It's, capital l e I g h, and then capital a n n is a separate word. I think that was also relatively near the end again, and I figured I could explain it in the time it would take me to bring it up again. Okay
so on yes under item 13 adjournment comments it's got Leigh Ann Hutchinson and it's LEE Vice, LEIGH. Right. Thus Carol has desired to have everybody spell their name that we failed miserably on tonight. But I think with what was on the screen, you got what we needed there.
Yeah, it takes a while to learn this kind of thing when you're new. Yep.
Okay. Any other comments on the minutes? Okay. So we'll do a unanimous consent vote on approval of the minutes as amended. All in favor, aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any abstentions? The motion passes five zero zero. Next item up, correspondence Jim. None. Next item up, administrative reports, enforcement actions.
Let's see. 12 Center Street, blighted prop property seems to be taken care of. Building officials signed off on the on the foundation being being, being taken care of after after that demo. Two letters went out for trailers, people living in trailers, one on Bear Swap, one on Times Farm, Bear Swap, the property owner indicated that he had asked for thirty days to remove the trailer and I said that was okay. I'm confirming that in writing. Times Farm, I also notified a gentleman on Times Farm Road. Got did get a call from the conservator or the fiduciary of the estate, and a gentleman indicated he would get back to me. I have not heard from him. It was about ten days ago, and I will con I will follow-up on that. Longhill Road, the the ongoing blight there, I was in contact with
the town town attorney, Dennis O'Brien, and he has me sending another notice, which, I will try and get out tomorrow. I I just got back from a a week away, and and it was in my inbox this morning. Apparently there's a follow-up to my last notice that I'm required to send, I was not aware of. Barnett property ongoing Route 6 Blight. I am continuing to work with with the owner. I have him now providing me with copies of the manifest for the dumpsters to to document progress on that. I do have one application for zoning board for the next zoning board of appeals meeting, and I expect a second. The second being a reduction or relief from the lot size requirement so as to
apply for a accessory apartment, site plan for accessory apartment again at 12 Center Street. The existing lot is shy of the 60,000 square feet and a variance is needed. If that is approved, it will require it will have to come before the the commission for site plan review. That's all I have.
Jim, did you want to mention something about the home occupation? I know there's two that I think are brewing. One, the one we talked about today and then the Thank other one is you. Something on Merritt Valley.
Okay. I am working alright. Yeah. Two two home home occupations. One was on Wills Wills Road 127 and involves a a an armed a gentleman that sells guns or he processes paperwork for firearm sales, and it's there's no activity on the site, and it seemed to fall under the the home occupation that can be signed off on 04/12 fourteen twelve a or April, which gives me the authority to sign off on that, and I did. And the second one mentioned was a problem on Merrick Valley landscaping business, and I am working with the owner to come forward with an application. I'll follow-up on that and see the status of that this week. That's all I have. Okay,
thank you. Thank you. You. Our next item up is from the Inland Wetlands Water Courses Commission. We have had no applications through that commission within the last month or two, so nothing to report there. Next item up is public speak. Once again, I see there were a couple of people that decided to hang around to listen to the rest of the meeting. Bob Hamburger, anything else tonight? Thanks. Nothing else to contribute.
Kelly Hagerty. Joanna Dibari. Jordan Knight? Maybe these people didn't all hang around.
Nothing to contribute from Jordan Knight. Thanks. Okay, thank you. Jesse Courier? Catherine Hutchinson?
Yes. I'm still here. It's just if between now and your next meeting, anything comes in with regard to the gravel pit, if it could either I get either be notified or it get posted because I check periodically to see what comes in, I would appreciate it. Okay,
will do. Thank you, Catherine. Pardon me. This is Jesse Courier. Yep, go ahead, Jesse. I just wanted to say that cool does have its own insurance policy, and we gave a copy of it to Eric Anderson for the town to review to make sure that it's up to their par.
Okay, sounds good. Thank you. And I see a couple of phone numbers at the bottom. Anybody else? Anybody there want to provide any public comment? Okay, I got two public comments just for the Commission's information. I did brief the Board of Selectment on the January 9 about the need for a town planner, economic development coordinator. Improvement was noted. River East didn't say no town planner for Andover this time. They said there's a chance. So guess we're headed in the right direction. And this Thursday, I am briefing the Sustainable Connecticut team on affordable housing. So that's, you know, part of the deal that they need for their accreditation, and so I brief them Thursday night. Any other Commission comments?
Ted, this is Leanne. I wasn't in the audience for the Board of Selection meeting itself, but I listened to it right after it was posted on YouTube, and I think you spoke well. And a town planner is certainly a position that would pay for itself and then some. So, will go through in this budget cycle. I'm glad Elaine spoke as well, and I'm glad Ann was able to be on to support you. And I wanted to ask Jim, Jim, do you have any information about the CLEAR affordable housing classes that Mark Brandt mentioned that you could send to us or tell us where to get it?
I do not, but I will get it, and I'll send it out. I'm sure it's readily available. Thank you. Leanne,
if you Googled Connecticut Land Use Academy, and the link is ucon.edu, I think it's /clu will get you to the appropriate page. It's run by the University of Connecticut. It's also an excellent, I haven't gone to their affordable housing training, but I've taken a lot of their other land use trainings in the past, and they're fantastic. They also have their regular basic course series for commission members that can be taken at any time. It's an online class that I would also encourage all of you to do because it's not as good as their in person stuff, but it's pretty good. The other thing I was going to say is I have asked
Bill Warner if he would speak directly with the board of selectman so that the board of selectman can understand from talking to an experienced planner. What a planner could bring to the table. We can't do it at the next meeting because Bill has a conflict, but at one of the budget meetings, he will present to the board what the benefits of a planner would be to the town because I concur that that would be beneficial both to the commission and to the town as a whole to have a planner. The other thing I wanted to say is I thank you all for listening carefully tonight and making a good policy decision in your role as a land use board. So thank you for that.
Okay. Anybody else? Our next next regular meeting is scheduled for February 27. That's one week later than we would normally do due to the present stay holiday. And I make a motion that we adjourn. I'll second. Okay.
Thank you, Scott. All in favor, aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any abstentions? That motion passes five-zero-zero. And I appreciate all of you being here tonight and appreciate what you do for the Planning and Zoning Commission. Appreciate the help and support. So, thank you very much. Good night. Thanks, Chad. Good night.