Meeting transcript
Board of Selectmen/Charter Revision Commission - Public Hearing
June 27, 2022 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
So I'm going Thank you. I apologize for that. We're going to call to order. One second. Okay, this is the town of Andover, our Board of Selectmen public hearing. We're having this hearing to receive input on the final draft report of the Charter Revision Commission, which recommends four amendments to the Charter. You all would have had access to the final draft report that was on the town website. So we're going get this meeting started at 07:05 today, which is the June 27. And so this meeting is to hear from the public, so I think the easiest way is for me to go around and call on people. So we'll start with Marci Miner, who's right next to me.
Marci, all the floor is yours. Sorry? The floor is yours. Oh,
that's okay. I sent everybody an email, I don't need to say anything else. Thank you. Okay. Diane Greiner. You're on mute. Hold on. Diane, you're mute.
There we go. Can everybody hear me now? Now you got to start all over I have to start all over again. Was a great introduction too. Sounded Thank you all Board of Selectmen and the committee for doing this. This is always a tough job. I am delighted to see that you only selected a few items on the charter, rather than doing the whole charter. I think this is a good idea do smaller pieces on more often, and we can get something done rather than trying to do the whole thing and nothing got stuck. So, thank you for that I think that's a great idea. I did have a couple of questions. And one is that. Oh, what is it, paragraph three here, or item, item two, where it talks about the last item is that the town administrator shall devote full working time to the duties of the office. Does that mean he's on call other than what eight to five or seven to four whenever he works? I thought Eric was on duty pretty much 20 fourseven.
Well, we're not supposed to respond. You're supposed to make funds. Okay.
Well, that was a concern. Okay. The other issue was the last item where they talked about at least three selectmen to employ all these different people, or at least three again to remove such people as you know the town administrator the building official planning and on municipal agent and all those items. And I think three out of five is not enough. I would imagine it's difficult to get for to agree on anything, but I think something like this should be difficult so I would like to see four out of five to be able to hire or remove somebody. And I'm very concerned about, I had no problem with you know the town assessor and the animal control office, but the resident state trooper program. I don't think this should be left up to three people on the board of selectmen to remove the state trooper program. That would have happened a couple years back when the, I think the board of selectmen or board of finance was very upset and wanted it, but the residents wanted it. So I don't think it should be that easy and I don't think the resident state trooper program should be left up to three or four people. Okay. Thank you very much.
Anything else? No, I think that that'll do me. Okay. We'll go to Kimberly Persson. Nothing right now thank you.
Liz Loci. So Liz you're on mute if you're trying because I can't see you. But if you have nothing I'll move on. Jay Kemmons, excuse me if I mispronounced that. Apologize.
You got it, Jerick. How are doing? Yeah, thank you all for having this forum. Do want to just two concerns. The first one is to echo what Diane said about the police officer. I think that it would be prudent to have something a little bit more larger, a larger group of people to decide that as it's such a contentious issue. My main concern is the item about bifurcation of the budget. I feel like, again, this was, as we all know, very controversial and very divisive topic. And while I certainly appreciate all the hard work that the charter committee made to try and make a series of very important changes, I think that this one is a misstep because, as we know, there are a group of people in town that are very much trying to reduce the financial footprint of the school budget.
And I think that this would be a really useful tool for those people to perhaps be able to separate and get their way on that. I think it's a misstep. And based on the very heated debates of last summer, I think that this should really be reconsidered. Jay, thank you very much. Appreciate the Joanne Ebert.
I'm on set. No comment. Thank you. Just here to listen.
Liz, are you right now? I'm back. Yeah, I couldn't find the app or the on my on my computer anyway. I could hear you but I couldn't find it to respond. So I am here in support of the bifurcation actually I agree it is a divisive issue but I think the town has spoken pretty loud and clear in the last couple of elections to indicate that they feel like the townspeople aren't being heard in terms of the expenditures by the school, and it doesn't feel like the school is really working to try to help at all. And and I'm speaking as a mother and a grandmother, and I strongly support good schools. This is not about not wanting the school because I don't have children in the school. There was a time when I had my children in the school, and the schools were supported. And speaking from someone in my
role, I absolutely support the school. I just don't feel like the administration is transparent and that I think they can they can do things differently and make changes to help the town get what the town needs so that the town can get get things done. So that's all I have to say, and thank you all for all your work on it, the charter and on the bifurcation team. I know it's difficult, but I appreciate y'all.
All right. Thank you very much. Akin Maydore. You have to unmute.
No comment right now. Thank you. Okay. You got it.
Cell phone 2345 is attorney O'Brien, so we'll skip him. Wow, we got it today. Yes, I actually did some homework. I looked up his number. I can't remember my number, but I did look up his number. All right, Louise. Louise Goodwin, Yes. May I ask a question?
This is supposed to be public comment. You can ask and we'll try to answer it in our later meeting.
Okay. I'm just curious, if things do change and they become a part of the charter, is there a time frame that it stays in existence on the charter or can it be changed at any time again? It can be changed at any time. It can. Okay. Yep. No other comment. Thank you. Maureen is here. George Elliott.
Okay, yeah, I have several questions, and they relate to some of the things that have already been addressed, but first of all, and I think most importantly, at a previous hearing, the live hearing that I couldn't attend because it was in person, the question was raised about what have been the outcomes of budget bifurcation. How many towns in the state of Connecticut have bifurcated their town and educational budgets. We would actually be trifurcating it in this case since RAM is already separated out from the elementary school district. What has been the outcome? If you can't answer that question, you're just asking us to buy a pig and a poke,
and based on feelings about the local Board of Education and its budget proposals. As I say, the question was previously raised, and I was really disappointed that there's been no presentation at this hearing that would address that question. So hold that thought. Second, I wondered why remove the requirement for higher education for the job description for the comp administrator. It seems highly unlikely in this day and age you're going to find a qualified candidate without higher education. Well, for example, a degree in biophysics doesn't necessarily prepare you for a career as a town administrator, it does show a capacity for learning, and I would suggest that at very least an associate degree in a related field would be a reasonable job requirement. I understand that education is still to be considered, but nevertheless, some minimum bar should be set for a high level position such as this one.
I agree in general with the modification of Section seven zero two to make it possible for the town to seek efficiencies, either through combining staff jobs or shared services with other municipalities, but I agree with Ms. Greiner that putting the state trooper program in that paragraph seems a little excessive. We have gone through some budget hearings and budget votes that essentially rejected the idea of axing the Resident State Trooper Program in order to save money, and I think the outcomeit's been at least twice since I've been here that that question has come up. So again, I would strongly recommend
removing that. Now, as the veteran of three previous charter commissions, including the last one that failed because there were commissioners who couldn't make it to meetings, I do appreciate the service of the current commission and their prominence in doing the work and getting this report out for public hearing. That's all my comment, and I will again raise that question about can anybody address the actual outcomes of budget bifurcation in the towns that have adopted that practice.
Okay. George, thank you very much. Appreciate it. I'm going to move on to Pat Moriarty. No comments at this time. Thank you. Okay. And the last individual on the call is a cell phone number, 742-8585, I believe it is. Yes, that's me, Joan Forint. Hi, Joan.
Hello, everyone. I want to start by thanking the committee and the Board of Selectmen for this meeting. It's very informative, and I just want to state unequivocally, listening to George Eliot, I've already changed my mind on two issues. So that is why meetings like this are so important. I'd like to support the measure that has three fifths instead of four fifths in regard to the hiring and termination of a position. I do want clarification though in the language. So are are you removing the resident straight trooper or the resident state trooper program? Because I could see an instance where there may be concerns specifically with the trooper, and yet people still want to have the program. So, at the discussion part with the board of selectmen, I asked them or your board rather, not them, I apologize, to consider this question. The other thing in regard to comments made about the Board of Education, I do have concerns where people are commenting in a negative way, not with malice,
but with a difference of opinion on funding on the board of that. So my support is with the board of that. And I know the perception has been at times they have not been forthright. I disagree. I think their presentations have been well presented, and I think that boards of ed in general, in the way they develop their budgets do it in a different manner than the town. And because of complex issues, it sometimes appears as they're not providing information such as an objective budget and a subjective budget, how they're perceived in costs, revenue sharing, grants that are received. And so it is not a simple presentation as with the Board of Selectmen. I do have concerns, though, when we go through multiple referendums and the budget keeps getting defeated. So, at a given point, we reduce budgets when we should not be contemplating those reductions, but do so on emotionality and misinformation. So, I do support the charter revisions as done by the committee at this point. And again, I thank the committee for all their hard work. This is not an easy job. I also want to thank the people that are at this hearing and a former board of Ed member George Elliott, for his clarity and substantive remarks. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Joan. Is there anyone else who would like to make any additional comments that I may have missed? Okay.
So at this time, I guess, or I'm going to sit there and say that we are going to close this portion of the public hearing. I believe we're scheduled, and I know we're scheduled, for a meeting with the Charter Revision Committee, but Carrot Lee appears to be the only member who's attended this meeting. Aaron Maduro, so. Aaron's raising hands. Sorry, my fault. So,
Dennis, I will ask you. Jeff. Yes. Jeff. Let me if I may intervene You may. The next item is actually a a meeting of the board of selectmen. K. And there is an agenda for the the meeting. I have. And it does include public comments. Okay. But that is that is for the purpose of you, members of the board, deciding whether to approve the final report or to modify it in any way. Okay. That's sufficient? That's sufficient? Yeah.
But do we I guess I think Jeff's question maybe is do we need to get ahold of some people from the charter commission to get on this for the final meeting? There are some of this, because I mean, I personally feel like there may be some conversation here. It's
possible you won't need that meeting depending on what happens with this meeting.
Again, but should we be This is scheduled for a joint meeting of the Board of Selectmen and the Chair. No, no, not this meeting. This
The is next meeting is Board of The next meeting is, yeah, the next meeting is us. And then the third meeting is them or a joint meeting. We have to decide what we want to do, and then ask them to either reject or ask for changes and then go from there. Adrian is correct.
Adrian is correct. I did not see that in the calendar or Right on, Adrian. Okay.
And you know, given some of the comments here, I think we definitely probably want to try to get some Charter Commission members together to be ready to be on a meeting so we can make some recommendations.
Well, the only thing that Dennis, I would ask is, I'm not sure it was posted that way, Dennis.
Well, was. It's a little confusing, but I went to the town website today and there are three different agendas. There's a First is the hearing.
Where's the other agenda at? Someone tell me that because I'm missing it.
Don't think, I think, I'm looking at the calendar and I think it was. I think it may have been posted on the calendar incorrectly, but I'm gonna be honest.
I think you are talking about the board of selectmen meeting is is is not is next. Right. It is posted on the town calendar.
Yeah. It's just it doesn't only two of the meetings are showing up, not the third one in the calendar. Let me if I click on that day. Me see if No, if you go to the
note that says Board of Selectmen and Charter Revision Commission Special Meeting, there are two related agendas on there. One agenda says Board of Selectmen's Special Meeting Agenda after public hearing. You click on that one, that is the agenda for the next meeting that is
underway. All right. So we, I just want to make sure we noticed correctly. That's all as well. Carolie, can you reach out to some can of your partner you reach out to some of your that we I will text now.
Yeah, we need a quorum, so All right. Of your board.
Eric, can you send me the agenda? Because I'm having problems following the second the the just
It would be faster if I just shared my screen and showed the agenda. Share your screen. If you click on the, if you click on that lower one and then go down related agenda, there are two listed.
Okay. That should be the agenda. Okay, so we're going to now call to order the town of Andover Board of Selectmen special meeting for Monday, June 27 at 07:28. We're going start with the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States Of America and to the Republic for which stands one nation under God, indivisible, liberty, justice for all.
Okay. And we're going to go back through the same cycle of public speak. So I'm not sure that everybody would like to participate. So Eric, if you can one second, Eric. Okay, Eric, you can pull that down for now so I can see everybody that's on the screen. There we go. Okay, so we're going to our meeting and our second item of order is public speak, so I will quickly go through and sit there and see if everyone would like to comment again, and I'm not sure that you will, before we discuss. You may want to end I'll tell you what, I'm going make a motion that we move public speak to the end of this meeting. It's a special meeting. Can I do that? Dennis, I can't do that, can I?
Alright. Not for a not a special meeting, no. Yeah. Alright.
So I'll go quick. George Eliot? You can say no, George.
Yeah, I wanted to I got you. Hold my hand and unmute, and that takes two separate operations with him. So I note that both of the proposed meetings to be held after the hearing are underlined emphatically only if need be, and therefore, I wonder who's getting their socks on over their shoes in the sense that if the Charter Commission is going to meet, should they be receiving instruction from the Board of Selectmen based on a hearing regarding possible modification of the draft charter revisions, or should the Charter Commission be proactive in listening to the public and proposing revisions to the selectmen prior to their meeting? We've got a chicken and egg type situation here. I just wonder how y'all are going to sort it.
Well, I would tell you, George, what we're going to try to do is we listened to what the members of the community had, and we were hoping that we would be able communicate directly to the Charter Commission and tell them what we may want them to do, if anything, as a board. So can I answer George's question? So George, Yes, I did, man. Well,
no, this because the statute actually says that it's supposed to come back to the Board Select bin. We're supposed to accept or reject item or text, and then our statement or recommendations to the Charter Commission to look at things that they'd be willing. And then they have the option of either accepting those changes and trying to put them into their document or saying no and giving it back to us the way it was. So we're at that stage. So it's got to come to we would have to make suggestions because they've already had their public hearing. They unfortunately sounds like maybe didn't get some of the things, some of the recommendations that were made here tonight, they didn't get that input so. So now it's up to us to to bring that input back to them and say we've gotten it, although you didn't, would you please look at these things so. Does that answer your questions, George? Thank you. All right. Diane Greiner. I'm all set. Thank you. Okay. Jay Kemis. I'm all set at this time. Thank you. Okay. Joanne Ebert. All set.
Okay. Marci Miner. Okay. She's good. Liz Loki?
Yeah. So since this is a separate meeting, I just wanna go on record as saying that I do support the bifurcation. And I understand that in the charter, it's written that it would go to a separate vote if it failed the first time. So I think that is a nice compromise. It's not what I kind of expected when I voted for bifurcation, but I think that's a nice compromise. Just wanted to get that on record. Thanks, Liberum. Kimberly Persong. Nothing right now. Thank you. Louise Goodwin. All set. Thanks, Jeff. Okay.
All right. So we're going to move on to Item three, discussion and action on the final draft report of the Charter Revision Commission, including well, that's the wrong one. I apologize. Hold on. I took a picture of it. Discussion and possible action upon the final draft report of the Charter Revision Commission, including citizen input received in the immediate preceding public hearing. All right, it is the same thing. I'm
a little bit slight with the agendas. So item three, the members of the Board of Selectmen, who has comments related to the final draft report that we've had in relation to the citizens comments? Anybody would like to go first? I
can say that I hadn't read the section on the state trooper the way that it's been kind of perceived. I read it as, you know, a recommendation for asking the trooper to be removed, not the trooper program. So I certainly think we maybe my personal take is that I think we need to look at making that a four fifths if we're talking about a program concern. But I mean, guess the other thing is though, that really that's not in our purview. It actually falls on the Board of Finance's purview for the only way to get rid of it would be actually to remove it from the budget. I don't think that the Selectmen actually engaged or disengaged that. I know when I was on the Board of Finance, that's when it came up over there as a cost saving measure. So, and the Board of Selectmen didn't really necessarily have a direct line of say in it. So I'm sort of torn as to how we address that. I think we need to address it, but I'm not sure. You know, I wonder if we just take it out completely and don't address it there within the Charter. You know, maybe that's the solution because it really isn't. I don't think it should be one board or another voting for that. I think that's really a townwide issue. Know, it was adjusted at town meeting the last time. So, you know.
Yeah, Adrian, I would agree with you on that. I think that should be budget line item. And that would fall under the bifurcation. If people didn't want the trooper or wanted the trooper, they could vote yes or no. Okay.
Well, if we're going to discuss that entire section, let's go to the three fifths on all employee issues.
I think I'm generally okay with the three fifths on the other employee positions because I don't think there is, I don't think they're as, I don't think we're talking, we're not talking about executive level positions for the most part, you know. And I think actually in most cases, those recommendations are going to be coming from the town administrator. You know, those aren't people we deal with directly on a day to day basis. So, you know. Okay. That's my own personal take, but. I
would agree with Adrian's viewpoint on that as well. So just so we understand, so it's listed as the town assessor, the building official, the municipal agent for aging, the director of health, animal control officer, tree warden, Sanitary and Wetlands Enforcement Officer, Treasurer, Town Attorney, Zoning Enforcement Officer, Town Engineer, and we're going to ask them to eliminate the issues related to police services such as the Resident State Trooper Program. So is that our request? Is they eliminate that entire section of police service such as Resident State Trooper Program?
Yeah, so I mean, I just got a currently the Charter actually doesn't address it. It isn't protected by any number of votes. It simply says that the town may utilize the services. It doesn't say, doesn't say they have to, it doesn't say they have to, it doesn't say they, they have to vote a certain way to get rid of it, right? So, so maybe we could just pull that one, that one section out on the trooper and leave it the way it currently is in the charter.
So Section seven zero one relates to the removal of the town administrator. Where are they putting this? Section seven zero one of the charter and Section seven zero two. Oh, you're stripping out
and replacing the protected provisions. Unfortunately, am on I'm on a phone here, so let me see if I can pull it up on a regular computer. My internet was not working right now, so I'm throwing, I'm throwing phone service to my laptop to try to do this.
Carol, I will ask, well I can't ask Carol this, so forget it.
Dennis, I will ask Wait, stop. Why can't you ask Carol? She's on the call, isn't she? She is.
Carol, it was the committee's intent to strike the entire Section 701E and seven zero two administrative positions and replace it with information.
Yes, we intended on striking the entire Section seven zero two of the administrative positions and just identify that the Board of Selectmen may appoint the following positions, which gave flexibility for you to regionalize or use joint services. So we did not, we missed the four fifths vote in the town administrator description. But all the others, took that out and needed three, a minimum of three select. So, in the event that the Board of Selectmen was reduced by one member to four, if one wasn't showing up or anything like that, then this way it wouldn't cripple the Board of Selectment if they had to do something as far as one of the positions.
So Carol, if we were to just strip the the the portion about the the resident trooper out, it's already addressed somewhere else in the Charter, so we we'd be okay?
Actually, it is addressed in section seven zero two, so we would have to put a second line in there so we could do as the current charter is section seven zero two administrative positions, we could do part A, which identifies all the positions that the Board of Selectmen may appoint, and then we could do part B and just mimic what it says under line L of seven zero two, which states police service. The town may utilize the services of the resident state trooper code. Okay.
Okay. So I would, do we, do we make motions in this, Jeff, or how do we move this forward?
Can I, can I make a clarification here, please? Please. There's no nothing taken out of here about the town administrator. I heard that mentioned before. This does not this this part does not apply to the town administrator at all or the town administrator position. All it does if you have your charter sections in front of you, and may you may not, section seven zero one to the charter has two paragraphs. And all this does is replace the first paragraph, which is very general language about all these positions, and replace it with the paragraph that is in the draft report. That's all it does. Doesn't doesn't address the town administrator at all. Okay? Only positions that are that are listed, and that includes, of course, currently, police services, which might be the resident trooper, as you've been saying.
So you're saying item four replaces section seven zero one general?
Paragraph one of seven zero one. I can read it to you if you want. Maybe Eric can bring it up on the screen.
I have it in front of me, but I just want to mean it would be good if you could it up in front of everybody. Would be great.
It's a general paragraph that basically says you need four votes rather than three. You need a competitive examination, which that's being eliminated for all of these all of these offices because it's never being it's not been done, and that's about it. But it does not apply to the town administrator. Town administrator is in section seven zero one a, seven zero one b, and etcetera. Just want to clarify that.
Okay, no, thank you. Eric, do you have that available or?
I have the draft document. Can pull up the charter. I don't have the charter open at the moment. Which do
you want? Do you want the charter? Pull up the charter. Pull up the charter.
Okay. Alright. Section seven zero one. That's it. Only two paragraphs.
Sorry, I'm being distracted. There's a fawn on my back deck. Well, it's not in season, so leave it alone.
I'm not having a lot of luck pulling it up at the moment. I can read it to you.
I'll read it, Dennis. Section seven zero one general, and this is how the charter is currently written, so I'm assuming that let's ask a general question. Do all the individuals on this call and all the members of the Board have the final draft, right? Everybody has the final draft? We're all good with the final draft? I'm going to read the first paragraph of Section seven zero one General under Chapter seven Administrative Officers. With the exception of 7020, Town Clerk, which is an elected position, Board of Selectmen shall appoint and, as necessary, remove the administrative officers provided for in Section seven zero two by the methods and manners contained in each subsection. Appointments shall be made through competitive examination. In this competitive examination process, a screening interview committee made up of incumbents from other towns of the office to be appointed shall be assigned to determine qualified candidates. The competitive exam process may be modified as necessary by a majority vote of the Board of Selectmen after holding a public hearing and modifications shall be recorded with the office of the town clerk. So that is the paragraph that is the committee in the final draft is requesting be removed. That is correct, attorney O'Brien. Correct?
That is correct. And also, there is a whole list of the positions and their qualifications and all kinds of other good stuff about those positions, and that is all being removed as well. And they're simply being listed to give the board of selectmen flexibility in this regard, and I think this was one of the items that was recommended to be looked at by the board of selectmen when we started this process.
Well, I mean, just from what I read, I mean, we are not doing all of those functions within the charter. I mean, the town does not have a significant competitive examination process that it goes through. So removal of that is not really an issue. So you're replacing it, just so I get it and I read this to everybody, you're replacing it with in the best interest of the people and the town of Andover by vote of at least three selectmen, the Board of Selectmen may employ, appoint, or contract with qualified persons or entities to perform the duties of the following requisite administrative positions, offices, or departments in a manner that is consistent with the powers and duties conferred and imposed upon them by the general statutes and ordinances of the town, and also by a minimum of three votes remove any such person or entity from any such position, office, or department subject to any applicable provision of the town of Andover personnel policies or any collective bargaining agreement or other contract. In that it lists the individuals, the town assessor, the building official, the municipal agent for the aging, Director of Health, Animal Control Officer, Tree Warden, Sanitary and Wetlands Enforcement Officer, Treasurer, town attorney, zoning enforcement officer, town engineer, police services such as resident state trooper program, public works supervisor, and tax collect. So that's what we're being told to replace it, so I'm assuming that we as a board would there and say, remove the section related to police service such as the Resident State Trooping Program.
Correct.
Is everybody in agreement with passing that back on to the Charter Revision Commission? Yep. Yes.
Dennis, just to be clear, do we need to make motions and vote on these things or what is done? I think you should
vote in favor of item number four in in the in the list of the list of proposals on the final report, and you should vote in favor of it with a as amended and the amendment is as you stated.
Okay. Yes. I think you should. I'll I we can just make a motion to approve with the exception of the removal of the resident trooper program.
Which was basically my question. Do we make a motion? Don't remember the process because I wasn't on the board of selecting the I already wrote one up. Go ahead, make the motion.
Motion to approve the Charter Revision Commission's changes to the Charter,
except for the removal of the Resident Trooper Program. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Wait, We need to talk about some of We the to talk about all. Yeah, just this section. Good move, Scott. I like it.
That's item number four on the final draft report. You started with the last one. We did. We got down to You're the last selectman. You can do that. Okay. Scott, would you like to revise that motion?
No, I'm not. You don't want to revise it? No, I'm good with it, just the way it is. Okay. Well, why don't we hold the motion then and we'll move forward? Fine. Let's talk about so since
we're on item four, I just want to be clear so we're all clear. The administrator is still a four fifths vote of approval or appointment, correct? Correct. Okay, just so everybody is made aware and we put that one out there. Alright, So why don't we talk about item well, it's not item one.
There's a numbering problem on this list which I tried to correct at your last board of selectman meeting, And the, item one I don't there's a there's a a an introductory paragraph that starts in full satisfaction. Yeah. The next paragraph is paragraph one.
It should be one, but it's not numbers. All right, so we're gonna go to the first section. Final sentences of both. Jeff,
the only reason I said that was because the rest of these we have been over
and didn't have any problem with any of it. That's okay. Let's let's go over them, Scott. We're here and we're taking our time. We may as well sit there and have some conversations.
So So item one item one then is the is the item on the bifurcation budget after either a referendum defeat or a
second defeat at a town meeting? Okay, so we are going to go by section. So we are going go section eight zero. This relates to section 803C and 803D of the current charter. This one talks about our I'll read it quick. If a quorum is not present, the meeting shall be recessed to the same day of the following week. If a quorum is not present at the second time meeting of the budget, the budget shall automatically be put to referendum on the first Tuesday following the next Monday. If a majority of those voting at the referendum shall vote yes, then the budget shall stand approved. If a majority of those voting at the referendum shall vote no, then the proposed budget shall be returned to the Board of Finance, which shall review the rejected budget and shall present the same or revise budget to the town meeting to be held on the next succeeding Tuesday. And then 803D is if a quorum is present at the succeeding town meeting on the rejected budget, the town meeting may proceed. If a quorum is not present, the budget shall be put to a referendum on the Tuesday following the next Monday. The same adoption cycles shall be followed. If the budget is rejected, town meeting or referendum until a budget is finally adopted. All right, so now the revision to that is removing the final sentences of both Section 803C and 803D and replacing it with, If the budget is defeated in a first referendum or for a second time at town meeting,
the budget will be bifurcated into separate votes on the town budget and on the local Board of Education budget individually. And the process shall begin again with the Board of Finance as set forth in Section 803B above and continue until each bifurcated budget is passed. If only one of the two bifurcated budgets is passed, it is final and may be implemented for the new fiscal year, but the process must continue for any failed budget until it is passed. Okay? That's it. That's it. So we've all we've all discussed or had previous discussions related to this, let's just sit there and and so the concept is to sit there and have an initial vote for the town budget, and if it passes on the first go round, then they're not bifurcated, but if it fails on the first go round, it then becomes bifurcated is basically the logic.
Is that the logic?
Or if it fails, two town meetings in a row or two town meetings, period. K. Two town meetings is the key. Two town meetings are a referendum. Correct.
Two town meetings is the key. Yeah. It's already been through one meeting and a referendum, it goes through another meeting and it fails again, then it goes to a bifurcation process.
I don't think that's how it's written. Yeah. So it it says if the budget is defeated at a first referendum or for a second time at town meeting.
Yeah. Because the the budget does not go to referendum unless it passes the town meeting first. K.
So it has to so it has to pass it either has to be one so for clarification, it fails to go to referendum because it's failed two town meetings, or if at its first referendum it fails then it gets bifurcated. Then the question becomes what happens if it okay yeah no all right it works.
When I first looked at this, Adrian, I had I had to think about it real hard because it is a little complicated because you have a complicated system. You cannot get the referendum without passing a town meeting. But this was not, you know, something I dreamed up. I I I helped the town. The charter commission put this into
well, final form, let's say. It was put they put it into writing, and I helped put it into final form. Okay. So let let let's just discuss this and just like Adrian was trying to do, let's use our current example for our current year. We went to town meeting the first time, and I'm getting my ears confused, but I believe we passed the first town meeting. Is that accurate? Correct. And it went to vote and we failed. Correct. At that point in time, the budget would now be bifurcated after the first referendum because it failed. Correct.
At that point in time, the Board of Finance would have two different budgets to put on the next ballot or the next referendum. It would be split in two different votes. We would now have a second referendum that had two items on the ballot. Yes or no on the town budget and yes or no on the Board of Education.
And Jeff, I think that, I mean, I've heard a lot of stuff going against like, this is an attack on the school. I don't find it an attack on the school. I think the board of finance has a hard job sometimes trying to figure out what to cut and where. And if this failed at referendum once, I mean, I wouldn't put it past the Board of Finance just to put it at referendum and just split it. And if it passes one or fails another, then, you know, I mean, we could be asking for a fire truck or something and the town just box and says no to the town budget and yes to the school budget. It could go either way. Well, mean, candidly, Jeff, my
own personal take on this. If this had been in play this year, I think the school budget would have passed and the town budget would have failed because. Yeah, that could have been a possibility. Mean, but I mean you, but if you look at the numbers, our town budget was asking for a massive increase this year. You know, we were looking to I understand that, yeah. But the problem is, mean, we always, the last couple years, we put this on the
board of finance and they just have to kind of make I these random know, I mean, was just Trying to make it pass. I think there may be one sticking issue and I think this helps the town generally figure out what the sticking issue is and deal with it by virtue. I
was a little frustrated with the board of finances methodology this year of cutting the Board of Education budget sort of randomly. I know it wasn't random I think they had some sort of like two to one methodology but it was a little frustrating to watch the school once you get get bought get cut when you know you know you're looking at really the big numbers on the town side but and I don't, you, you assume, I guess, in, in those numbers that that's, that was what the rejection was, but, know, even asking for yes or no questions didn't clarify,
you know. Correct. And I mean, I think this just makes everybody's job a lot easier in the long run.
Well, I think in years that, cause we're going to have a year here where we're coming up very soon, where we're asking for a fire truck. Exactly, exactly. It shouldn't be that
the school budget gets cut because the town is asking for, you know, a million dollar bond. Yeah, know. And I don't think this is just, I mean, don't think this is an issue with the school at all. I think it could be either way. It could be a town budget issue or it could be a school budget issue. I just think Can that's
I address one other thing on this? So there is, looking at this, one of the things that Mr. Knox brought up, which I think was a very valid point was about conversation. Is he still on the call? We lose him. About whether this has been studied or not, there was a study done when he was considering doing it. You know they got survey tried to survey all 169 towns. They received responses from 65 of those towns and 21 of the towns that they received answers from were towns that bifurcate and 44 towns that do not. And what what was found was that really towns that bifurcated didn't go back. And if you did this, if you look at the survey, it is out there. It's a it's under the the howstems.gov website. It's there was no real. There was no conclusion that it helped or hurt, but every town that did it seemed to have an opinion one way or the other. So like half the towns loved it, half the towns hated it. It just there was no rhyme or reason to
whether it helped or hurt. You couldn't get you literally if you read the study, they couldn't come up. It was it was literally neutral. But towns that did it for very specific reasons seemed happy with it. Towns that did it sort of haphazardly seemed to have more of an issue. I know my concern with it is that I think we have to get better as a town at the two, the school and the and the town having conversations about what their budgets are going to look like in the coming year. You know, so that you know, like the year that the school needs a parking lot, say, for instance, or something bigger. Let's say that we have a population increase and we need three teachers over at the school, then we're going to have to look at the town budget and say, listen, you know we probably need a pretty lean budget to get it passed, you know, otherwise we're going to get into this bifurcation issue. I think that could be the benefit of it. Don't know. I you know I think everyone has their own personal opinion on this. I think it can go either way. I think it's how we react to it as a town is going to be whether this works well or not personally.
Yeah, but Adrian didn't he didn't the town over? I mean, I don't I forgot what the percentage was, but the town overwhelmingly voted for this, correct?
Yes, I mean they did, but you know there has been some argument valid or not that that the reason that the town overwhelmingly voted for this was, know, you know that that it was it was a heated discussion year and there was some back and forth and, you know. But yeah, when you look at the numbers, it was like four twenty one yes, and, and two twenty nine no. Two twenty four. Two twenty four. Is that what it was? So.
I mean, was over two to one. I mean, was a, it was a pretty substantial margin.
My issue with bifurcation in general is that it just throws a wedge up between the community and the school. And I just don't, I particularly have a problem with that. Because I understand the reason to bifurcate, I do understand the logic, but I really do think we operate in a very bad situation where it's one community. And as a community, we provide services that are town oriented and we provide services for education.
Yeah, but I agree with you. But like this year is a perfect example of why this might be a good idea. You know, the arbitrary cutting of the school budget. You know, really wasn't a great thing, you know, and it wasn't, especially one of the bigger increases were on the town side and the budget failing, I think, was simply just a big number and not I don't think it was something specific. Mean, you look at the I yesno
think you can spin it whatever way you want, Adrian. I don't believe that. I think that there is a significant amount of community, venom directed at the Board of Education and school system that, you know, misplaced or not, I just think it's just going to increase.
So how do you, so how do you decrease it then? I mean, this isn't, this isn't the solution, then what is it? No, I don't disagree.
And I'm not sitting there negatively saying it shouldn't be bifurcated. What I'm saying is we as a community, and it really comes down to how information is presented. And if information is presented in an appropriate way, then everybody will sit there and accept it. I mean, to be really honest, this Board may have put forth a large budget, but there's nothing in our budget that didn't need to get done. Know, you can spin it out. No one would disagree with that either, but you
know, problem in this town, personally, I believe, the school and on the town side, is always bad messaging. How do we get people to engage? Mean, you know, the River East goes to every single, every single resident in town on a Friday. But if you take a survey of residents, you know, maybe 10% of them actually read. Some of them read letters to that or but the other the other 10% don't even bother reading the Andover section. They never even pick up on things that are in there. So how do we messaging? And we've tried everything, Jeff. We've tried the, you know, we definitely have tried, you know, the Facebook pages of this and that. How do we get more residents involved? Well, is really the crux of the problem.
You know, time and again, every budget season, Jeff, it comes up with the same situation that at the beginning of the budget season, we're saying, no, a budget season's coming up. Here we go. We're going to be a big argument for the whole season. We get to the end, we muddle our way through it and we still don't know what happened. This is the only way that we're going know. We're going to find out, we have to do something different. We can't keep doing the same thing over and over again. It's not working. We're not getting any information just like Adrian's saying. We don't know where the problems lie. We have to change something.
That's my opinion. Because the same people that show up at town meetings are not the same people that show up on on the day we vote.
Well, you know what? Honestly, I'll be candid. I'm, I wished in some way that we had addressed that. I, I personally think we should eliminate the town, the town meeting method and go directly to voting because it so frustrates me that a very small majority can cut budgets excruciatingly, painfully at a town meeting or reject a budget at a town meeting. And they and you know you may have 70 people there, you know, a town where we have, know, you know, over 3,000 voters and 70 people can kill a budget. It's that's that's a hard thing to deal with, you know.
I apologize for the interruption, but is this the part where we can't make You any
can you can come back and public speak and we'll be there, we'll be there quickly, I promise. All right, thanks.
So I would say to Jay, if you have something, feel free to throw it in the chat. We can at least take a look at it there.
You bet. If you don't mind. Yeah, sure. That sounds good. I just I just it is a
you know, it's it's one pot of money. That's all it is. It's I think we all agree on that. The question is how do we how do we get it through the with the the least painful way? I mean, you know, four budget referendums is nuts. I mean, and it's not just us. Look at Bolton. Bolton's having to vote again on July 12. Vote again.
They're still not done. And then the other thing, Adrian, is we keep going through this and we keep making cuts and we may be making cuts to the wrong places. To the wrong places every time, maybe. Because we're guessing, we're guessing every time where we're going cut and what we're And going to get to I think if we can just slice the pie in half and say, okay, we need to work on this side or work on that side, it's just a lot easier. And it could be the town side, it could be the school side, who knows? We need answers. No, no. We're not getting.
Well, I think the other part that's not mentioned enough is that there's also a very large part of our budget that we seemingly have no control over. I mean, Yeah. Ram is, Ram is, you know, we're two votes on 11 number board over there. No.
Okay. So now we'll move to the item that is labeled one. The following should be inserted into the charter as a new section eight zero three gs. Should any budget fail to gain final approval prior to the beginning of the new fiscal year, the town must implement a substitute for any such failed budget at the beginning of the fiscal year pursuant to General Statute Section seven-four zero five and twelve-one 123 in the court cases decided thereunder and in the case of the Board of Education budget in compliance with the minimum budget requirement MBR state.
Jeff, that is something that I recommended to the Federal Revision Commission because in the past, I've been asked over and over again whenever we come up against this problem the same question. Not since we've had a town administrator, but before that, as to what we do if we don't pass the budget in time for the end of the fiscal year, and the answer is the it's governed by those statutes and a couple of cases. And, I thought it would be a good thing just sticking in the charter. So who's Especially when you're in a situation now, if you're going to go to a bifurcated budget, it's possible that you may have one budget passed before the end of the fiscal year and the other one not passed. So you're going to have to follow the state statutes on that.
Okay, so just just let's sit there and say the town budget did not pass. Who's implementing a substitute. Is it the board of finance
or selectman board of selectman will have to implement the substitute budget for the one that doesn't pass by issuing a a no rate for that particular budget. That is gonna be complicated. Is it based on the higher budget? I'm sure you'll figure that out. Yeah. But George, sorry,
Dennis, isn't that taken is is that correct? I mean, can override the board of finance. Wouldn't that fall to the board of finance's preview?
If a budget doesn't pass by the end of the fiscal year, the the statute gives the power to create the mill rate to the board of selectmen. They can certainly do it on the basis of a recommendation
from the board of finance, which might be wise. But isn't the board of but it's the board of finances statutes responsibility
to set a finance rate, not that not that, not that slot. Not you don't have, but not if you don't have a budget before, before a new fiscal year begins.
Okay. So here's a question. Is this forcing us to do that or allowing us to do that? No. It's forcing you to do it.
They should save off. Don't part. It's just so we don't have a choice on this?
Well, you can you have a choice of take of not putting it in the charter, but but if I'm still town attorney and it comes up, I'm still gonna write an opinion based on those statutes.
No, I just I just have a problem with taking away the power from the Board of Finance. And, you know, I understand the fiscal year and I understand the tax collection and all the complicated BS that goes around and I've been in this long enough to figure that out. But I as the town, I don't I don't I'm not okay with that, I guess.
Well, I can tell you that, you know, pick it up with the legislature. I I have, you know, in in fact, Adrian, in the past, when Bob Burbank was first selectman, I think it happened once or maybe twice. We didn't have a budget by the end of the first by the end of the fiscal year. And in fact the board of selectmen did set the mill rate but that was for a that was not for a bifurcated budget a little simpler
okay Adrian the board of selectmen set the mill rate last fiscal year. Right. I
believe so. Yes. That's right. That's right, Eric. I mean, I don't have it. No, I just thought I'd throw that in.
Dennis, one second. I have no problem setting it. What I'm saying is,
are we going to give any guidance as to what it should be set at? I mean, are we Yeah, mean, we did it last year with, you know, with guidance from the Board of Finance, So I, my concern is taking, I don't want to put it in the charter where if you get, if you get a Board of Finance and Board Selectmen that are not on good terms. I mean, I've been there as a Board of Finance member, when we had a Board of Selectmen that we were not getting along with for a variety of reasons. And you know, I don't I just really think that it should be under the advisement of the Board of Finance if we're going to put it in there.
Well, maybe you shouldn't put it in at all, Hadrian. I, I just, I just threw it in as a kind of a token. No, I know, but I, you know,
things can be made. Mainly because I, you know, I was, you know, it, it piqued my interest because of the bifurcation in the, proposal, which makes it a little bit more complicated.
Okay. So just so we all understand, let's sit there and say that the Board of Education budget, you know, we went through bifurcation, the town budget got approved, and the Board of Education budget did not get approved. It goes all the way through June and it has not been approved. We're to set a mill rate for the community based on the prior year budget or based upon, you know, a budget number for the Board of Education that we pick out, Just explain it. Supposed
to be a budget that enables you, the town, to meet your expenses in the foreseeable future after the beginning of the fiscal year when you have no budget. So it would be a combination of, you know, you you almost have to work together with the board of finance because they'd have control over the mill rate on the budget that passed. This is just in a breakdown situation, but we've had it happen. It just happened. Yes. I mean, you know, I don't
What do you mean it just happened, Scott? Last year.
We had a we had we failed. We did not have a budget when the Board of Select was at the mill rate. It was a unified budget, though, that failed. It was both town and board of head.
So for the record, what happened last year is I asked the board of finance to recommend to the board of selectmen a proposed mill rate. So board of selectmen was the entity that approved that mill rate to be official. A very rational approach indeed.
So can we codify that? Is there anything against us codifying that in the charter? Per your recommendation, can we modify that to say that the Board of Selectmen would do that at the advisement of the Board of Finance?
Well, it's up to you, not me. Mean, yeah, No, I'm asking if there's any reason we can't do that. No, there's not. So you want to change that? That makes sense. Anybody else have any comment on this?
It's probably what would happen anyway, but you're right. Not codify it. No ban against it. Right.
So should the word town be changed? It should say the Board of Selectmen must implement a substitute budget, you know, under the guidance or, you know, should we change the word town to Board of Selectmen under advisement from the Board of Finance? That sounds correct.
Because I have no problem with that, and I hope to God we never have to do it. Yeah, you could add some words in there that
I could, I could throw in there. Sure. Okay. So why don't we do that and then send that back to Sure.
And get it exactly right. Let me just say this. You haven't voted on the, the issue that presented by the bifurcation yet No. For one for one thing. And, you need to have a motion on that one and also on this one. For this one, I think what you want to do is pass it with a change that you just Adrian recommended. Okay. Okay.
Do we want to review the last item before we we vote on all these things? I think that's what we should do. Okay. Let's get this over with. So this is under item two under the agenda. The following language shall replace section one zero seven zero one c in its entirety.
So seven zero one c That is actually that is actually item three. There's a there's a numeration problem on the copy graph. Let know. I'm just letting everybody know. And the the preceding item that we just talked about is item two. Yeah. So The bifurcation is item one.
Technical, and administrative qualifications, character, educational background training certification, and professionally related experience. Educational training must include a minimum of a baccalaureate degree. The town administrator shall devote full working time to the duties of the office. To be replaced with the administrator shall be chosen by the Board of Selectmen exclusively on the basis of executive, technical, and administrative qualifications, character, educational background, training certification, and professionally related experience, the town administrator shall devote full working time to the duties of the office. He therefore removes educational training must include a minimum of a baccalaureate degree. Well done. Discussion. Got it right. I
can read. My baccalaureate degree has not failed me yet. Despite your baccalaureate degree. Despite my background, yes. Baccalaureate degree. You got it right.
I mean, I understand George Eliot's concern. I think any Board of Selectmen is going to pick the appropriate candidate for the position. And if that candidate does not have a baccalaureate degree, I don't think it should stop it. Mean, I would think, you know, I look at, and I'm not sure Hebron's town administrator has a baccalaureate degree, but I know he was in the public works department and he moved from public works to the town administrator's position. That type of person with hands on experience in dealing with the day to day issues related to a public works department would be a potential candidate for a community like Andover down the road. And I'm not sure that that person may have went to college, may not have gone to college. I don't think it would stop them from being a good town administrator.
Jeff, I just have a couple of comments on it. It's a lot of these companies I I work for a company that used to require a bachelor's degree for certain positions, and they've kind of lightened up on that. And, know, now it should possess a bachelor degree or equivalent experience. So, you know, just because you went to college doesn't make you, you know, I mean, are a first time administrator, had a master's in municipal management and we know how that ended out. So, you know, I really don't want to overlook the candidate on experience. We may have a really experienced candidate, very smart, and may just not have a bachelor's degree but has equivalent experience. I don't know if we can work that into the charter revision or not,
but my suggestion I have no problem with removing it because it doesn't stop someone from a baccalaureate degree from applying. It just doesn't limit someone
who doesn't They're saying should have a bachelor degree or equivalent experience.
So I'm just throwing it out there. If somebody wants to make that motion, that's fine.
Is the one Say the change you want to make again.
Just saying. He's just saying should. So it would leave it as it's currently written in educational training should, not must include, should include. A bachelor's degree or equivalent experience. I think
pretty good as a hiring committee to realize I would second that.
Okay. So how about we make a motion on this one because this one has the least amount of negativity toward it. Jeff Murray, will you just make a motion that changes that sentence?
What section are we talking about? I don't have it in front of me. I'll make a motion.
So this is item two on the final draft report. We're recommending that the motion is that the original section seven zero one qualifications and compensation be modified by the Charter Revision Commission. Only changing educational training should, remove the word must and replace with should include a minimum of a baccalaureate degree, and then add or In parentheses or equivalent experience. Or equivalent experience. I was trying to look at how they wrote it currently. Yeah, so the motion is to replace the word must with should to the second sentence in Section seven zero one and add to that oral equivalent experience. That would be our recommendation. Someone want to second that so we can vote on it? I'll second that. Okay. Any further discussion on that item? All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. Hopefully, we made Mr. Elliott a little bit happier with that request. So now let's go through the motions for the remaining other three items that are here. So Scott, there was a change to item four. Right? Number four. Right. And what was that let's let's get that motion out there just on four. I I motioned to approve the Charter Revision Commission changes to the
charter except for on number four, the removal of the resident trooper program. So That gets rid of two and four?
That gets rid of two and four or three and four. Three and four. Three and four. Three and Three and four. Somebody wanna second that? I'll second it. And I'll
do number two, Jeff, too. Hold on. Hold on for a second. We have to discuss and vote. So we're going to discuss that one. So basically, the request is to remove the section that says police service such as the resident state trooper program from that revision. Just so we're all clear and listening to this, that is what the motion is really requesting is to remove police service such as the resident state trooper from that section. Okay.
And what you want to do with it is to make it a four vote item?
Well, is that item still in the charter anywhere? No.
No, I don't think so. It's gonna have to be added as a separate item. It can be done. I just need to know exactly what you want. Okay. So Scott
revised a motion to eliminate that section from their current draft and that they're required to add a section or we'll do a second motion. Let's do this motion, get this motion out of the way to remove police service such as the Resident State Trooper Program. It was proposed by Scott Person, seconded by Jeff Murray. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. All right. So four, nothing. Now we should make a motion to request the Charter Revision Commission to look at the Resident State Trooper Program. So Dennis, how should we phrase this one?
You can just take it right out of the charter. I think somebody said that before. You you wanna know, make it a four vote requirement to remove it or a four vote require The other The way it was before was, I believe a four vote requirement to No, approve it's or remove not
addressed in the charter currently. It's addressed in the charter that the town may use the services of
the resident state trooper program. That's how it is. There's no forfeit. Okay, that's all you want. That's all you want. Right? I think I think we should keep it a budget item. I actually think it should Exactly. Be a budget
That's what I heard before. Right? I'm fine with that. All right. So you wanted you wanted just to say that the town can address the police service provided by the resident state trooper program? It
already says that. So we want to probably just pull out that notation of three votes and just pull out the state trooper out of that section. And put it somewhere else. It's already in there somewhere else.
Where is it? It's in Section B 70 Oh, that section in there? Yeah. Yes.
Alright. Alright. Can I just say something? It is in section seven zero two item l. So if we revise what we wrote and just do section a and leave that exactly as it reads in the current charter and make it part b of seven zero two. So we're leaving it in, and we're identifying all of the other positions.
I'm sorry, Frank. I hear you. Nope. Don't be sorry, Carol. Thank you. Good job, Carol. Alright. Okay. Very good. K. Now we gotta do two, Jeff. We have to vote on that?
We voted on that. We voted on the removal. We're not doing anything additional related to this thing too. We're gonna leave it as Carol has it's 702L. Okay. Understood. I
mean, 702L just sits there. Just so we're all clear, 702L says police service. The town may utilize the services of the resident state troop program.
Okay. We'll make it make it make sense in in that sense. I think Carol's got it right. Okay. Alright. And now Somebody taking minutes? Taking minutes for this meeting? Yes.
Okay. Because we need to have the votes. Who vote who vote yes? Who vote no? It's it's recorded, Dennis. Okay. Good. Oh, that's right. So now we're Great technology that's happened. It's a virtual meeting. That's right. I
like it. It's always recorded. You can always go back. I didn't have to get in my car and drive to Hanzo. That's right.
Okay, so now we're on to, we have our last. We have to vote on two, which changes.
I'm going to read it. I thought we voted on that. No.
We've talked about it. Scott Persson's the new chair. I love it.
I'm confused. Two or what? I'm looking at two going, town administrator should be chosen by the board of selecting exclusively on experience, and we talked about this. We voted on that one. Oh no, two is the, that's three.
Under the advisement of the board of finance and changing the town to board of selectmen. Number three. Okay.
Scott, make the motion on that one. Okay, I motion to approve the Charter Revision Commission's changes to the Charter except for a number two. Just section eight zero three gs.
Yeah, which we add to the end of that section adding under advisement of the Board of Finance and changing the town to Board of Selectmen.
Okay, so we should sit there and say replace the town with the Board of Selectmen under advisement of the Board of Finance. Must With the advice and consent, yeah. All right.
That acceptable, that wording? So replace the town with the I'll make the motion. Section eight zero three gs, the second line of that section replaced the town with the Board of Selectmen under advisement of the Board of Finance.
I'll second that. I wouldn't can we change under to with the advisement?
Sure. Thank you. So it's going to say it's going to replace town with the Board of Selectmen with advisement from the Board of Finance. That's my revised motion. Scott, you still second? Sure. Adrian, do you approve? Yes. Okay. Let's all vote. All in favor? Aye. Okay. So since we voted on that one, I'm assuming that we're going to vote on the first one and the last one, which is the bifurcation issue. Right. No changes to that. Okay. So someone make a motion.
I'll motion to approve number one on the draft report. Section eight zero three b. Yep. Can I second? I'll second that. Jeff Murray has seconded. Further discussion on this? Okay.
Just as a discussion purpose, I understand the logic, I just think it still brings it's never a we have to get to a point within our government and with our groups that we work together more. We have to do a better job of it. I don't necessarily know that this is leading us down this road. I understand the technical side of it, but I don't sit there and agree with Makes sense. Jeff,
if you're going to make a statement, then give us a I'm going to. I made it, Adrian. Do you have a problem with that? No, I just want the solution that if you're saying that we shouldn't do this, you don't know that we can get a solution, I'd love to hear what they I
actually think it's gonna make us work closer together to get a budget that's gonna pass the first time, to be honest with you.
Jeff's gonna call that spin, so be careful what you say. Yeah, you could spin it any way you want. So Jeff, do you, I mean listen, if you feel like there's a way to, to better this conversation,
I'm I wish I had that way, Adrian, right? It would be a totally better society. Do you have any, any idea how to address this differently? Yes, the way that I would address it is the Board of Education and the Board of Finance and the town would all come together and have one set of budget parameters and everybody would follow the same guidance and the information would be the same across every group. That's how I would ask for it to happen. That's ideal. That's what we're looking for, Jeff. That's what we're looking for. And if this forces that to happen, then great. Yep, and that's what I asked for last year, Jeff. I know. Jeff, I totally understand what this board listen, this board works pretty well together, and I understand what the logic is to get. We're trying to get to. And if this happens, great. I just hope, right? I really don't like the negative discourse. I would rather not have the negative discourse, but sometimes you have to have negative discourse to make people do things in an appropriate manner, so. Well, I think the other part of this, Jeff, and I think this is the part that
we, as a board, sometimes get stuck behind doing things that maybe we're not a 100% in favor of. We understand there's a solution. We don't know that this is the right solution. But we have to try to take what the populace wants us to do. In this case, we had about twothree that wanted it one way and a third wanted it another. So you a clear voter majority in one direction. So sometimes our job as a board isn't necessarily to implement everything we believe. I mean, we're elected by the same people that voted on this budget, right? Voted Exactly. On this question. So our job is to take what they're asking for and implement it in a way that is workable, meaningful, and hopefully will result in a positive outcome. Exactly. It's not always gonna be what we want. You know, I mean, many times do we go through the effort of spending, hours and hours and hours in a meeting to get something done and then it goes to the public and they kill it. And like, wait, this is what you wanted. You want the roads fixed. We voted to fix the roads. Now you don't want it. There is and candidly, we don't know that this is going to pass, but we've done our due diligence. We've done what the majority has asked for. The public asked for, exactly, Adrian. And going let the public vote on it. Now that it's out there, now the public gets a second say on it and say, well, this is what you asked for.
If you really want it or you really don't want it, now's the time to show up and vote accordingly.
Okay. I I I understand that, and I I don't have well, listen, I if if every if every board or public entity worked, at least I know this board works together and we don't always sit there and fight for the last nail on our side. We actually do pretty well. And I don't have a problem.
Jeff, my only point in questioning you was simply that if you did have some idea, as crazy as it may be or whatever,
that you bring it out in public because I would only I only have a logical idea that I've expressed to everybody that needs to hear it, come up with your budget in an appropriate fashion and give everybody all the information. Listen. We have proven as a board that if you share more information, you get more done because they know you're being completely transparent. Everybody hates the word transparent, I get it, but we have done a reasonably good job of being transparent and there's a reason why the money that was requested got approved, because we're transparent and Eric and town employees do a great job of showing that something is getting done. It's not like it was in the past where nothing got done. We're asking for more money and we're proving that certain things can get done. It's not always positive. It's not always popular. Listen, it's not popular. No one wants to spend money. You either do it or you die. So we've been transparent. I don't necessarily know that that's the case across everything that we're talking about here. So if you've got to bifurcate, bifurcate. But then again, personally, if we're going to bifurcate, we should ask the Charter Revision Committee to get rid of the town meeting because I 100% agree with you that those meetings allow a certain group of people to have an inordinate amount of power just for showing up to something that the rest of the community doesn't. I would get rid of the town meeting. I would go right to referendum. I'd let everybody vote and
have at it.
I mean, one thing I think everybody's thinking is the school budget's going to fail. I mean, could go to bifurcation. Both budgets could still fail. Right. It's a possibility. I will put you on That possibility. So can we vote on your motion, Jeff? Sure. I didn't make the motion.
And then I I'd like to Oh, Scott made the motion. Okay.
Scott made the motion, and Jeff seconded it. I just commented.
I gave my spin. Well, we had our discussion. That's that's what we're supposed to end the discussion.
I I gave my spin. I just don't want I I would rather everybody everybody get along and get what needs to get done done, and, you know, give a little bit and get a little bit. It's all you got to do. Right, so since we're all done discussing and I'm done with my spin, Adrian, and I apologize, let's vote on this. All those in favor? Aye. All those opposed? Okay, none.
I would like to make a motion since I'm hearing that there may be support for it, that we ask the Board of asked the Charter Revision Commission if it is feasible to eliminate the town meeting and go directly to referendum with a budget once once it's passed by the Board of Selectmen Board of Finance. And I think that would be a great balance if we're going to bifurcate Because then it eliminates the small majority control.
Dennis, is that possible? How often can you have a Charter Revision Commission?
Well, no, I'd like to do it in this one. This is going back to the Charter Revision Commission anyways, because we asked for some small changes. Can we, can they just strip that out? Is that possible?
And let's give town a You can do it. You can definitely do it now. You know, you have the final authority.
So if we ask to have it done, there has to be two different sets of this because there has to be what happens I just ask everybody, I would be okay going to town meeting. We may lose that one because of the people who vote.
I would still have the town meeting though and actually review the budget and then just eliminate the voting part of it.
I'm still let still review the budget, just like we've always done. Yeah, so you still have a budget review. Just don't have, but the budget going to referendum has nothing to do with that town meeting. We still have a town meeting, but there's no vote at that town meeting. It's a presentation.
So you strip out the vote, you have the town meeting for information. The budget automatically goes to reference. So it automatically goes to reference. Right. I have no problem with that. Are some exceptions of
I think, but I think that's a fair balance. It eliminates the small, the small control issue. Okay.
Somebody make a motion to that because I I just made that motion. I mean, when's the last time in a public meeting that actually something was proposed to be removed and actually was removed? Last year, multiple times. But whenever it was removed, Adrianne? Yes. It was. Which one?
The the the school budget got caught on that. It was cut. At town meeting? Yep.
Not not excessively, but it was cut. And the years before that, we every I think every year that we've had a contentious budget, it's it's always the state, you know.
Yeah. But Adrian, they were cut. They were cut and then then it failed at the town meeting.
Yep. The point is. Never went to referendum. So once it is, this eliminates that that that sort of round robin. That just that going back and forth. Right. It eliminates the round robin and lets it get to the the voters as a whole to make them, you know, because a lot of parents can't show up to those meetings because, you know, you're putting your kids to bed at 07:00, you know? And your kids and I I have a kid. I have an eight year old too, and he he doesn't want to go to a town meeting and sit there. Right. And and you have parents that work others. You have people that work that work shifts that can't get there and you know. And then at the same time you also have seniors that don't want to come out at 07:00 because it's getting dark out or or what have you and and and they're not comfortable driving at night for a variety of reasons. So I think it it's it hurts the populace as a whole, not just one side or the other. Alright, who's seconding this?
You gonna, did you make a motion for official motion? So I make, I make a motion. I'll clarify then. I will make a motion that we remove the requirement for a budget, a a town meeting budget vote, and that the but the town budget once passed by the Board of Selectmen to the Board of Finance and the Board of Finance to the woods that we all go directly from the Board of Finance to a town vote. A referendum, sorry for clarification, referendum.
So your motion is to hold the town meeting for informational purposes
and that. But the but the once passed by the Board of Finance, the town budget will go to referendum within ten days. Or in ten days, how's that?
Okay. Which is actually how most towns do it now.
Well, there's still some back and forth, but yes. There is a little bit of back and forth. It is going in that direction, so. Yes, definitely.
Okay. Any further comment on that request? The terminology I'm
sorry. The terminology bill will be within ten days. I don't think anybody seconded it yet, Jeff. Mr. Maguire, why don't you second that? I'll second it. Your idea. It is my idea. Does this include the, the bifurcation or not? Yes.
Okay. That's the, this is an amendment to that, to add something. Yes. Yep. All right.
Mean, essence, so in essence, the bifurcation occurs immediately after the first referendum, if it's a failure. Yep.
Right. Right. That's what it seems like. Yes. So that would eliminate the, the, the- Second town meeting, the second town meeting. Yeah. But again, I think this gives a balance to that bifurcation. I like that a lot, actually.
Okay. Since I seconded it, is there any further discussion? All those in favor? Aye. Okay. You, So Dennis, we need to get those to the and Carol, we're going to get those items
from the minutes over to Yeah. Let me just say this. The meeting that we're we're planning on maybe having tonight with the Charter Revision Commission has to be, postponed. Correct. Because the changes all have to be in writing, and I'll have to go over them. And, we just can't do that tonight. Okay. So we can do that at at the as an item in the early part of your meeting on July 11, your next board selection meeting. Just And we'll proceed so right from there.
Dennis, just so, you know, everyone under proceeds that at the town meeting for the budget only, there is no vote. If there's other town meetings that are required by the charter for Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That there's votes at these town meetings, but at the budget, there would be no voting. I I'm I'm clear on that mainly because that's what we do in Wyndham,
And let me tell you, about five people show up. Just just saying that. Just saying.
Well, it gives the opportunity it it gives the opportunity for us to record a presentation and present it online as well. So That's and you might have a lots of people show up here. I don't know.
But that's I just wanted to I had to tell you that. So okay. K. So this should be the last meeting of the night. Correct. K. And I will I will work with Carol, and we will get together, and we will come up with the language that I think and Carol thinks that you came up with tonight. Okay. Sounds good.
Okay. Well, there was no, public speak on the on the agenda, I apologize. The next agenda, we'll make sure that we post that up so that you guys get a chance to speak at the end of this, or I would change it. Dennis, before I go, since you are the town attorney, is there any negative requirement if I allow the public to speak?
Well, public speak is not a right. You had it on the agenda as an item in the beginning of the meeting, and you I thought you were gonna have move it to the end, but then I I said I thought that would be wrong because this is a special meeting. So there's no public statement, but those who wanna this is still in play, all of it. And you have to meet with the Charter Revision Commission. That meeting will take place at your meeting, your board of selectman meeting on the July 11. And anybody who wants to speak out on on what's happened tonight
is gonna be able to do it then. How's that? They will. That's great. Does any do any of the other members of the board like a matter of fact, going around quickly and let the people that are on this meeting speak? No,
No, I'm fine with it. We're fine with it. Jay, you're up.
Hey, thanks, guys. Thanks for letting me speak. Just again, certainly just listening to you all debate this and talk it through. I have a really new appreciation for what you're going through and all the different points of view and everything that you're trying to work through. Kudos to all you folks. I just wanted to say again that when it's coming to this school budget, it's a particularly divisive topic and a very divisive time for our country, and that's unfortunately trickled all the way down to our small town. I think that you're I know that you're in a tight spot, but I think that there a very vocal minority where this budget, the school budget, whether they deserve it or not, has become very emotional. And if there's any way before
you bifurcate to try and take the opportunity to turn that emotion down a little bit and let it turn into something more productive, I think in the long run, it's going to be very helpful for the town and for the school because right now, the emotions are trumping any kind of financial fiscal conversation. So that's all I have to say. I might be wrong, but I do feel that this is going to become a tool, bifurcation meaning, to hammer away at those grievances towards whoever is on that school board that they're disagreeing with. Okay. All right. Thank you. Diane Greiner.
Yes. Again, thank you all. Is a hard job, and I'm glad you're all doing it for us. Thank you. I had a question as to when does this become implemented?
Has to go to vote in November. One of the reasons that we were one of the reasons that this was so important, any changes to the charters, you have to get a certain percentage of the town to vote. If a certain percentage of the town doesn't vote at on the charter, then it doesn't it even if it passed, it wouldn't count. Right? So it goes by your last your last major vote and what percentage that was. And I don't know the exact details, substantial. Really the only way to pass charters is in governor's elections or presidential elections. The in between cycles, you'll never pass it. So that's why it was important to do this in the timeframe that was that we're looking at. Otherwise, our next opportunity realistically would probably be the next presidential election.
Okay, so if it's on the November ballot, does it become effective immediately upon passing? Yeah, I believe it would be, yeah. Okay.
And it will be on the November ballot if it goes through. If it goes through the the two, you know, the the Charter Division Commission and then us and it has to get sent to the state for approval and it has to be into them in September in order to be approved for it to be on the ballot in November.
So anything else Diane? Oh, that's it. Thank you. Alright Marcy Meyer.
I'm sorry, it always takes me a while to get on mute. So anyway, thank you, you guys. I know the Charter Commission worked a long time trying to figure out, you know, happy medium and how to solve the problem. And I think they did a really good job. You guys had a lot of good discussions. So appreciate your efforts and everything that you do. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Liz Lokite.
Catching the ball low, Jeff. Anyway, just wanted to thank you all for the discussion. I really think it shows that everyone is working together and I really appreciate it. I know it's not an easy topic, but just want to thank you all. Y'all. Louise Goodwin. No comment except thank everybody for their efforts. Thank you. Joanne Ebert. Okay. Karen Mador?
No? I'm all set. Thanks. Carol Lee, we'll give the committee members that didn't talk a chance. You good? I am all set. Thank you very much. We'll work on this and get this done.
All right. Thank you, Carol. All right. Any other issues for any of the other members before we adjourn? So we're not going to move on to our next meeting. So we're going to wait until the Charter Commission comes back to us with our requests, and then we'll have to schedule another meeting. Dennis, actually, can we our next regular scheduled meeting is,
what, the tenth? Eleventh. No, it's the eleventh. But I as I said before, Jeff, you can put the session with the Charter Revision Commission and the Board of Selectmen right on your your June July 11 agenda. Have it at the beginning at the early part of the meeting, and then move on from there. Carol,
is that happened? Is that possible for your commission to meet and get this these changes processed?
I will check. Karen is on right now Mondays. I know we would lose. I don't think we will have Don Denley on Monday. No, Don can come on Monday. So yes, we would be able to. Okay.
But I'm assuming that you have to meet before that. Yes.
Okay. We will. Can you let us know before we get the agenda out whether we have to do that or if we have to schedule another meeting? But it would be great if you could do it on the regular scheduled day. That would be great.
Think we can. Right, Karen? Karen's giving me a thumbs up. Perfect. Okay. Anything else? No? Who wants to make a motion to adjourn? Motion to adjourn at 08:56PM.
Second it? Second it? Second it? I'll second. Fine, Adrian. I'll second. I'll spin. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. All right. Thank you everybody for attending. Good night, folks. Night. Night.