Meeting transcript
Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting
August 16, 2021 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
Alright. So, Jed, now try sharing. See whether that worked. Yep. We're
Okay, hopefully everybody can see map of the property that we're talking about.
Okay, I'm just gonna go over what's there, what you see. And if you look on the bottom of the page, you see where there's a driveway that enters or that off of Route 6 travels into the post farm. So as you go down the driveway, there's basic, if look at the square, there's two squares, those are basically competition fields, training fields. The first one you arrive at is pretty much the size of a baseball, a football field, it's two fifty four feet by Scott's measurement, a little short of a football field, by two eighty six. If you look over, there's a few buildings also near that drive, and that's a repurposed old heifer farm. A lot of the structures that are here are old, from when the farm was an operating farm. There is a house, a residential property that actually Scott rents out.
I believe he allows his mother's living there, believe it's on the left side of that driveway. Now just for a point of reference, that driveway is, there's a 16 foot right away on it to an old burial ground. I say old, I think Scott could certainly touch base on that, but apparently people had been buried on the old farm for years and at some point it became an issue I believe and the right of way was recorded. Anyway, so what he has, he's operating most primarily in these two squares and the structures there, parking is along the road. The operation is pretty much folks come in, drop, I'm gonna have Scott speak to that, because he knows it far better than I certainly, but I mean, he's training dogs during the day. People come in, drop them off, pick them up at the end of the day and they're gone. Now, one of the issues was that it isn't somewhat close to the flood plain along the Hop River. I was out there and
looking at the flood plain map, the FEMA map, it's probably two twenty five, two fifty feet from what I would guess to be the floodplain, that's based on just actual dimensions and also just in the field. It's pretty clear where that floodplain, it's limited to an area, maybe 50 feet from the river. It's pretty clear where that water rises to based on topography. So that's it's well away from that. So I mean what you see in the, if you view the overhead pictures online, in the old post farm there's, you know, towards the bottom of this, this is all a, you know, hay field, operating hay field, still used, and what Scott's currently using is just sort of the old hay field, part of the old hay field that's been improved. It's improved by, you know, grading, getting rocks out and such, actually pretty good shape, there's really no exposed earth, there's no problem as far as erosion, and it's flat as well. So that in a nutshell, that's it. Perhaps Scott can speak to any part of the business that I maybe perhaps missed.
I mean, I'd be happy to answer any questions, but it's basically like you said, when you pull onto the driveway, all the area to the right is a huge hay field still run. The farm still run by the Heckler brothers out of Coventry. So that's all hayfield up until the Heifer Barn, which is where I have my two fields. And there's just some old structures there. So at one point there was 40 pounds right there. And that's the area that I'm using. And I know you had asked questions about fencing and things like that. I had sent pictures over, the kennel area has actually three security fences. And then everything else is like the fields are either single fenced or double fenced the competition field that big field is not a field use like for dogs to just run around in it's where my high level dogs train and Jim said to point out like it looks like a golf course like that's how much pride I take in it. And he said, most people when you say dog training place, they're not gonna picture all the work that I've done there. So that's one of the reasons I sent the pictures over so you can see there's no drainage issues there because it's a gravel bank.
They actually used to pull gravel out of that field for years. I don't know any other questions I'd be happy to answer. Scott, this is Leanne. Hi Leanne.
Hi, How many clients come and go in a day? Or I don't know if you have exactly the same people come and go or average per day or per week. So I don't advertise.
It's all word-of-mouth. It just depends on the day. Tuesdays and Thursdays are my busier days and I'd say throughout the day 20 clients. Okay.
Most of my clients come by the hour. Right. Like a doctor. They do hourly appointments. And then the ones that are there like throughout the day they'll come anywhere between eight in the morning and 09:15. And those are usually about 10 dogs 10 to 12 dogs on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And they're not always there. Have a bus where I put them on the bus and we take them out and we train in public and sometimes they're just there and we train them there.
Okay, and do we have other maps other than are there other maps on the website that have been presented other than what's on being shared right now? Or is this just what we need to work with?
So the main concern was the flood zones and that's why this map was used to show the flood zones. Okay.
So this is the only map. I had a different aerial map that wasn't as detailed as this one. And Jim was able to show all the wetlands and come out and meet with me and walk the property. So we just felt this was the best map to show what was actually going on. And as far as like the truth is as far as like the amount of cars coming in there, just I know you've been around a long time and this is the same field our kids went Easter egg hunting in and the town had events there all the time with hundreds of cars. Okay. It's the exact same field. They used to have the activities there.
Okay. So just to understand what Jim Halsey said, this is You're not making any changes other than to other than to what we see here and to what was on the when Jim visited the site. Yeah, I'm not looking to make any changes. I'm actually just have cleaned up the property and reused
some of the buildings. So the only changes I'm doing is the improvements like to the barns and things like that.
Okay. So the main house is right now. Conservative would be off to the right of what we're looking at right now.
The main house is to the left of the driveway, not To to the the right is all open space until you get all the way up until the development on top of the hill.
Okay. So is the driveway that we're looking at now to the right of the main house? Yes.
Okay. So that's the entrance to next that people are using.
Leanne, did you get the chance to look at the photos that were posted?
No, I didn't realize they were there. Okay. And they were
a fairly recent addition. I am going to try and if we don't have any more questions on this, I do think the photos were they showed the quality of the operation that Scott's trying to run there. And we'll take a quick look through that and give Scott the opportunity add on any comments that he makes as we go through those.
Okay, so we're going to do that. So I don't need to try to minimize this and find it on the town website where you're going to run through that shortly. Can I try?
Okay, so just so so the driveway I can picture is to the right of the house and that's where the clients are coming and going now and that's the way it's proposed to stay. Is that correct?
So can I can I just I think Leanne are you talking about the farmhouse? Yes. Yeah you're at the wrong house. I'm at the backside of the property. You know where the two German Shepherd flags are on Route 6? That's where my clients come in and out of the farm. Not on that corner on Route 6.
Okay. I'm not sure where the German shepherd flags are.
So more across from Wales Road. All the way down there? Okay. All the way down there, yep. Yeah, when you kept saying to the right of the house, figured you were talking about the wrong house. Right, I was talking about the farmhouse. Yeah, this is the backside where Desi lives. Okay. Way in back.
Okay, does everybody see a photo now? Yes. Yeah, And we may, after we go through some stuff here, and I do want to run through what the requirements are out of our regulations, we may wish to go do a site visit. And we can talk about that in a little bit too. Scott, anything you want to say about this photo before we go to the next one?
So it's basically just a photo of my training field and jumps. You can see, so this photo points back towards the entrance of the property. So straight ahead all the way, I would say 11:00 is where the entrance to the property is. Okay. That's how far back I am. And what is this building
or house over here? That's Desi's that's the house that I rent from Serenity. Okay. That's where Desi used to live.
Serenity being the owner of the farm, the entire Yeah.
The driveway is actually down across from that sign for the there's a sale sign. It's been there for years for the property for sale across the street. So this is the driveway. Can picture a driveway with flags that's basically across from that. If you can picture the for sale sign that I mean, nothing to do with you. It's property on the other side of road. I'm just trying find Yep. Okay. Thanks.
Okay. And here's the overhead view from Google. It again shows the driveway there. Scott, this is your bus that you house the dogs in? So this is the bus fully air conditioned, fully heated.
This is where the dogs travel out in public to do obedience. Whether we go to trial our dogs, dog shows, whatever.
Now on your website, Scott, it talks about boarding dogs.
Yeah. It also talks, you have to remember, my website was created back in '20 It also talks about, I just switched it, but it had grooming on there, still had everything that I was approved for years ago, but I'm not really doing that. The problem is I need the boarding license because of the daycare. Okay, no, I'm just Right, and then down the road, if I'm ever able to clean up the barn enough, then I can house them. But the state comes and inspects. I can't just house dogs unless I have everything up to code.
I got it. But you're not asking the commission that question. You're asking the commission, does your application meet our regulations? And it does, yep. And
you want to be as fair and open minded as possible when we go through those. But I think the commission, we need to look at our regulations because we don't do that very often and make sure that if our regulations aren't what we want, we can change those as well. So you'll probably feel like I'm picking on you here tonight, but I'm trying to make sure that I understand how we deal with our own regulations.
Right. And that's why there's really only three regulations that come into play in the town and that's the acreage, the wetlands, and I'd have to look. I think that was about it truthfully. And then it's like a waste removal, which I have a waste company that comes in every other week on Wednesday. Everything else falls under inspection of the state.
I got you. Yep. So we'll get to the regulations here in a minute after we look at photos.
And what do we have here? So that's the old heifer barn. So back in the day, there'd be 25 cows in there pooping away all day long. So I've cleaned that all up and now there's just, you can see one, two, three, four, five kennels there, right? They're just sitting on the concrete, shade from the roof.
Okay, so there are kennels inside the heifer bar? Yep. That was a yes? Yes, Okay, yep.
That's a picture from the front. And there's the kennels. So this is the side field off the main field. So this is an obstacle course agility area. And this is the heifer Barn is just to the right of this picture, just so you have reference. Okay.
So that's the photos that we added since the last time we got together. I guess I wasn't going to go this route, but I might just as well see if we can call up our regulations and we'll put them on the screen as we go through there. That's 19, Jed. Okay.
Okay, so here we start out in our regulations with a bunch of definitions. And again, you know, I think, well, I can only speak for myself that there's probably two or three pages of regulations here. So there's not a lot of which the class Charlie Kennel is a subset of that. So that reduces it down to maybe we got two pages of stuff we got to work on. But after I spent some time on it, I concluded that I liked the regulation as far as the way they're laid out. I don't know if they're reasonable, if they address what we need to do here or what. But I'd like, you know, we started out with the commercial kennel and it talks about you got to have a kennel so you can have training, grooming, showing and other similar compensated services. And then I guess I will start out with we're talking about special permitted use type C kennel. That's what the request is for. And it talks, you know, permitted in all districts except the Lake District in the flood prone. So we've come through that. We're good there. Minimum lot size 10 acres. Minimum front rear sideline requirements say dog house pen run or enclosure shall be 150 feet. And I could not tell that from the drawing that we have, whether or not we're 150 feet as currently shown away from the property lines.
So I can answer that if you want. Yep, go ahead. So we're several hundreds, probably thousand feet from the property line. Right, so the property line is all the way up to Route 6 when we're probably six seven hundred yards from there and then the other property line goes all the way across the river and up to Ridge Road. And then it goes the whole length of the farm all the way to Hendy. So I mean we're talking in some spots, probably a half quarter mile to a half mile.
Okay, so help me understand on the map, right opposite the driveway from the property that we're discussing for your training thing, has Serenity Post Jones piece of property. Is that the same person? Yeah, it's all part of the farm. That's who owns the farm. Okay. Yes, sir. But one of the things that might be
So even from that, you're still looking at probably 300 feet down to the kennels.
Okay. Got it. So we're in compliance with the 150 foot thing. Now to indoor housing facilities that comply with state regs for commercial kennels must be provided. And this is where Right,
that's where the state so this is where like I've already had the state come and inspect me. So there's no issue until I get to like cold weather or really hot weather and then I can't house the dogs until I have like heating and air conditioning and that, which I'm not really looking to do that, right? I just need this kind of license because of my daycare program. So the dogs housed on the property are my dogs, which don't apply to this.
Okay. I hear what you're saying. I got to process that a little bit. And then it says the provisions of section 19.1, which are the original requirements. And we'll go back to that for a minute.
Yeah, so Jim Halsey must have gone over all these general requirements with Scott.
Yes, right. Yeah, we went over all this. We've gone over this a bunch of times. Yep. Okay.
And some that's even what you talked about Jim last time or Jed, I'm sorry. Yep. And there's plenty of parking. Okay and then. Yes, there's plenty of parking. And all
dogs permitted shall be confined to the premise by a sound fence or other suitable enclosure. Absolutely. Is that true? Okay.
Yeah, the last thing you want to do is lose a client's dog. So I'm not sure like you guys understand like some of my dogs I pay 15 to $20,000 for. We're not talking about running pound dogs here, right? I'm bringing dogs back to Europe, which is unheard of in The US. Also, I run a very successful business in town. I have two employees, I haven't taken a dime of money in COVID, I pay my taxes, I meet all these regulations. I lost pretty much my shirt in 2011 with the town and won in the end but lost all my money. So, really for me, I know you're just trying to dot your i's and cross your t's but I feel like I've been down this road already and done all this. And the only reason this is coming back up, which I don't think anybody understands is because I bought out my partner. And once you change anything with the state, I have to go back to the town. So at one point this was all done.
And if we had dotted the I's and crossed the P's and had anything in the file on it, we wouldn't be talking about it tonight. But that was not done. And Scott, not to be harsh, you did not do what you said the permit was for, which was to build an indoor kennel.
Right. Because I'll be honest, because I spent every penny fighting the town. I got you.
Listen, this is where I don't understand. Over a channel that I didn't ask for one stipulation. I went down this back then too. And I know there's different people on the board, but it was ridiculous.
Okay. If that be true, then you should be able to breeze through the next little section.
Yep, I can. Ask me whatever you want. Okay. Very adverse with the laws in the dog business. So the application procedure.
And it says we're going to go in accordance with 19.3.2. And so here we are, the application procedure. And it says and again, I am trying to be an understanding fellow here. So even though it says it will be all submitted ten days prior to the regular meeting of the commission, I'm willing to overlook that. We talked last time about we do not need to set a public hearing because we've done that before and we've had no complaints and there's some words about that in our book that allow us to do that. A complete application shall include at least the following information. All applicable data and plans called for by the Planning and Zoning Commission application form, which I don't see.
Wait, where are you and what don't you see? I don't see
the planning and zoning commission application form which I think is the special permit checklist out of chapter 23 of our regulations with all Heinz 57 questions on it. Okay, I'm going to go on to the second one here because I think we've got that plot plan showing the location of the proposed kennel, buildings in the immediate area, location of roads and property line. So I've got a plot plan showing your heifer barn. I've got a detailed description of the proposed operation. I am looking for that because you have put several stipulations on yourself, Scott, that I need to have in this application, including what seasons of the year you're going to be working and what Because otherwise we might be approving something based on what you say that I have nothing in the folder again and we can't go back to the written proposal.
So you're looking for what? Me to write up what my business is again for you?
Right, Jed? If you've done it, show me. I have not seen it. I've seen your website that has a lot of things that you told me you're not doing.
So listen, the only thing I removed from the website was grooming, right? And so if I don't rent the house at the post farm and I just go back to training in the field, there's no regulations. I don't know that that's true.
Why do you think there's no regulation? There's none with the state at that point. The
state says that you need to comply with the local regulations and that's what Only we're going
if you have property. So this is what you guys don't understand. Most dog trainers go down to the local park and make their living. Here I am in the middle of a 200 acre farm with a fenced in property, securely training dogs. And the only reason it's an issue now is because I pay rent. And once you pay rent, can improve things, which I've done there.
I disagree with you, Scott. I think the reason we're talking about this is because we didn't follow through and file the application when you originally got it approved.
Okay, I just wanted to weigh in here. I mean, it was my understanding that the commission was looking at what was there and seeing if they felt comfortable with substituting one permit for another. I didn't think it lends itself to a full blown to revisit this special permit plan and do, I mean, it's a 200 acre farm and to apply that would have just, I just thought that was beyond the scope of what the commission was looking for quite honestly. I mean, if you're talking about full blown survey of the property, contours.
No, I don't need that, Jim. And that checklist gives you the latitude to put not applicable on there. But we ought to have something that describes what it is that Scott's wanting to do. And I haven't seen that. All right. As I look through the Why procedure
didn't you ask for that last time? What you don't understand is I have the state breathing down my throat. I'm waiting for you guys. All right, that's probably on me. I probably should have come up with that. Like I feel like I just need to hire an attorney again. This is ridiculous.
No, I don't think you need to do that, Scott. But I do think you need to work with us. And what my concern was at the last meeting was that we did not have anything to look at for what you wanted to do. So based on having nothing, I went through and did a careful scrub of what our regulations are. And I think they're pretty good. And I think the application that you discussed getting approved the first time around was probably in compliance with these rules. It's just you didn't want to do that.
Okay. At this point, could I work with Scott on putting together a narrative?
Well, I want to get through the rest of the application procedure so we don't have this question come up ever again. And then after we get done with that, we're going to talk about the action of the commission. Because I don't want to have any surprises coming up on that either. But I am once again feeling like a mushroom where people come and want to do things but they don't want to put anything into the file so we have a record of what it is they've done and it comes back to bite us all the time.
Okay. Here's something that I'm a little perturbed about. I spent months and months in a lawsuit with the town and you can't pull up one record from the town? Not one, not one. I lost $150,000 my life savings because of that. And you have not one piece of paper. And you wonder why people are perturbed? Like there's a little bit of reality here. Support three families with my business that's been there twenty three years and was approved because of a lawsuit. Granted, I'll give you that I didn't build a million dollar building because I had to rebuild myself and pay my mortgage and take out another loan again. Because some pompous ass sat in a chair and told me dogs don't belong at daycare. So, yeah, I'm a little perturbed that if you didn't want something,
first of all, I spent so much money giving the town everything they wanted last time and you have nothing, nothing. Engineers, perk tests, site plans, business plans and you have nothing?
And I'm assuming you don't have a copy of any the wonder why I'm upset though. That's what I don't get. I
got it. So you expect me to just throw out to not do a review of our regulations. You don't need to get anything from me Scott. You need to get a signature from Jim Halsey, the zoning agent that says your kennel is in compliance with our regulations. Okay. So 19.2.3, the Commission shall take action on any such application within sixty five days after the application is received. The applicant will be notified of the Commission's decision by certified mail within fifteen days after such action or as otherwise provided by the Connecticut General Statutes. So I do think well, I don't know. I don't know how I will determine this. But there's certainly five people on the commission that get a chance to vote. But I did look through the state requirements for what a kennel is. And they're pretty general. So I was hoping that your heifer barn could meet that. So Jim or Jen, the
whole point here is it's not, this is where the problem lies. It's facility, right? So as soon as I have fencing, I'm a facility. It's not about a structure. If you guys want to vote and say no overnight boarding, that's fine with me, right? I'll come back and revisit that later. But the state is ready to close down my business because of this, because of a signature on a piece of paper, a business I had built for twenty three years on that farm and had not one complaint.
I think so far all Jed is looking for is a description of the proposed operation. That's all he wants. And
if we had that, then we could put as a condition of approval, there's going be no overnight boarding or there's going to be no training during certain months of the year when it's too hot or too cold. I can't do that unless I get a written statement. That
was boarding. I train every day of the year. I'm out there seven days a week training my dogs. It could be 105. I'm there training my dog. It could be minus 30. I'm there training my dog. It's the boarding conditions right. That's what I was talking about. I can't board your dog Mrs. Smith's little poodle which I have no intent in doing anyways and putting it out in a kennel with my German Shepherd because of the cold weather that's what they're talking about. Right? And this is why I wish maybe the town should sit down with the state so the left hand could talk to the right hand.
I spent several hours going through the state regulations and I know what the state regulations say and they say you're going to have a kennel if you're doing training.
No. That may not be You're wrong. They say you're going to have a facility. Listen, I sat at the picnic table and argued with the state inspector for hours over this. I literally can go off of my train, the property that I rent and walk in the farmer's field and there's no regulations. As soon as I'm on property I rent is when all the regulations come in. Okay, let me read to you Scott from the state regulations
section 22 dash three four four. No person shall maintain a training facility until such person has obtained from the commissioner a license to maintain such facility under such regulations as the commissioner provides as sanitation disease and a bunch of other stuff for your safety. Right.
So what I'm trying to explain to you is that the state's already been to my place multiple times. All I need is you to tell them that I can be there. That's all I'm looking for. I'm not looking for you to tell the state that I do this with a dog. It's not even what they're asking you. They're asking you, do I meet the regulations to be there? That's all I'm asking and I do. Right you keep visiting all these state things that have to do with their inspection. That's like asking the hamburger joint in town if they clean their grill at night. The state deals with that. The whole issue is daycare. The state has nowhere to put daycare, right? It doesn't fall under grooming. It doesn't fall under vet care. So, they put it under commercial kennels. This is why I'm visiting the board.
What do we need to do to get a vote on this? Because all we want to do is get the approval. And if we're missing something on the application, we're happy to do that. We're in compliance with the rules. So what do we have to do? What do you need from us? An application that complies with our regulations.
I'm sorry. I didn't hear the first part of that.
I'm looking for an application that shows you comply with our regulations.
Okay. So again, we were unclear on filling out an application. Scott thought when he met with Jim that we were going to have all the paperwork in that we needed. So if we need to do some additional paperwork, we're more than happy to do that. But if there's any way we can get this voted on. If you need a narrative, we'll write it as soon as we're done, you'll have it by the end of your meeting. Just really Obviously Jed's looking for the checklist.
I'm looking for anything and I don't Okay. Like that Yeah we talked about this at the last meeting. There was gonna be a revised application.
And okay, you may have said that we were just unclear that that needed to be done. We really were under the impression I that don't think it's just me. I mean, had help from people
in the meeting to do this like nobody brought that up. Yeah and we just figured that when
Scott met with Jim you would have what you needed and we apologize if that isn't the case. We certainly, believe me, we want this to go through more than anybody else. We would have had the paperwork done. Can you send it to me now? Send what to you? I mean send the forms we need to fill out now? Can we do it right now?
I don't know that Jim has a form for that. I mean, it's very difficult to try and plug this situation into an application after the fact. I guess I can go through the checklist and I can work on a narrative. Apologize.
Why isn't the applicant doing that, Jim? Has got the responsibility to come to the commission and show us that he is in compliance with our regulations. I'm all in favor of helping him do that. But that it's his responsibility. I can't hear you whoever's talking.
We have no problem writing a narrative and completing a checklist if we could just have some direction as to where to find it. And in terms of Jim's support, it was because my husband didn't know how you know identify the bloodline and stuff. Yeah I understand. And I certainly respect that you what you're trying to do. I understand we understand that you have a process it's just like you said this is his livelihood and I hope everyone understands that. And he's worked hard, really hard for it.
I understand that as well. And I understand or I do not expect that an applicant will be all that familiar with our regulations. And maybe we should have gone through all this in detail to start with. I just assumed that somehow Scott and Jim would have looked at requirements in our regulations and came to the Commission with something that demonstrated that they were met or pointed out where they couldn't be met. And then we would take a look at that.
Can I ask a question? This is Anne. Go ahead, Anne. I'm looking on the our town website to the things that have been submitted here and it has a special permit that says it was approved on 05/16/2011. Why are we going through all this again? Why can't we just say it was approved, did it approve it again? Because
I do not know what was approved. We have no record of what was approved.
It says special permit for Class C commercial kennel and dog daycare business to be located in a 10 acre parcel leased on the North Side of Hutchinson Road, Andover.
Thank you. And I am told that that application consisted of building a new kennel and it was in a different location from where we are today. It was also not signed by the Commissioner of the Planning and Zoning Commission, the chairman at the time, were filed. And I don't know why that wasn't done. But it wasn't done and we do have no record of it. I was hoping that Mr. Beebe had all that information that he brought to the board before and we could take a look at it. But he seems to not have it either. And so all I know is that we approved a special permit, have no idea what it was approved for. But the question that's being asked of me is does that kennel comply with our regulations? And when somebody says I want a special permit for a class Charlie kennel, approve it,
I cannot do that. Right, but the reason you don't have all that is because it was already approved. So you're saying you don't know what was approved. What was approved is a Class C commercial kennel and daycare. The same thing I'm standing in front of you for today.
I disagree. And so I guess I will ask you to get with Jim again to try and come through this. Maybe Jim can be the mediator. You and I aren't communicating effectively.
Okay, I apologize for my part, could have made sure that there was more detail here. I only spent so much time looking for the old approval because it seemed to be somewhat of a moot point. I mean, was elsewhere. I mean, numerous people told me that, including the applicant. The old approval, the details of the old approval aren't particularly pertinent in my opinion.
They are if you want my signature on it. No, I'm just saying.
So I think can I just speak really quickly? So the details of the old kennel, right? I'm not trying to hide anything is about this whole class C commercial kennel at daycare, right? What it stipulated was that I was building a million dollar building and creating six, I think it was 12 luxury runs, a grooming salon, an indoor training facility, none of which I've built, right? I have utilized a rundown part of the farm and fixed it on the same piece of property that we talked about in 2011. Yes, in a different area, but still on the same two zero five acres and have put up fencing and some kennels from tractor supply and train dogs in the field. I'm not asking to build a million dollar building again. I'm not asking for any of that. I'm asking to train dogs in a field. And in all honesty, the only reason this is brought up is because now I rent it, right? Before I just did things for Mrs. Post. I took her grocery shopping and I plowed her lawn. When you don't rent anything, there's no regulations from the state, right? Yes, if I rent a daycare then there's regulations. But what I'm saying is, the training and all that all came into play once I started leasing the property.
Because then the state says you can make improvements and then follow their laws, right? If you don't own something they can't tell you to fix it. Okay.
So, that's where all this is coming into play. I'm not looking to house a 100 dogs, none of that. I'm looking to run a daycare Monday through Friday 8AM to 6PM and train dogs in a field the other days. That's all I'm doing.
Okay, so I think hopefully Jim and you both have a better understanding of what I am looking for. One of the reasons I'm going through this section of the regulations in such detail is that I expect applicants, zoning agents, and commission members to be familiar with the regulations. And our expectation, my expectation is that when an application comes in, it addresses and shows that it's met the requirements.
And I understand that but this is not a new application this is something that was already approved and that's where you and I aren't seeing eye to eye. Already lost my shirt getting this approved. Scott,
what was approved in 2011 is not what you're applying for now. Do Jed's saying that there's other things. He doesn't want a lot of things. He wants the checklist and the application form and he wants a detailed description of your proposed operation. That's all I think that Jed wants.
All right, so I'm gonna give you that. And after that, that's it, I'm done.
Okay, well, I don't stand well with the threat Scott.
I'm not saying it's a threat. What I'm telling you is I'm done fighting because I can't, I have a heart condition. I can't deal with this stress, right? What you think is something that you're checking off, you're talking about my livelihood right now and you're talking about my kid's college education, right? All and if it comes down to it I'll just go train the dogs at the school and see how you like that. You know what I mean?
All this stuff should have been done prior to this meeting Scott.
It was simple stuff. Okay. We apologize for that we weren't aware All right. Of I will we're giving you what you wanted. So we're but we certainly are willing to be transparent. Where he's not doing anything that he hasn't said he was doing. So just if you could let us know the date that you need all that by we'll be happy to make sure you have it.
Is there a certain time schedule that the state needs this approved by? Yeah, I mean last week. Yeah, like last week. Yeah. So if we could just
Okay. Well, we're not going be able to meet last week.
Right. So when do we need to get it in by? We're in compliance with what we need to do for the planning and zoning board.
Could you okay this Jed for a, no, you can't really do that with the conditions? I can't because I don't know It what doesn't fulfill 1932. Everything's not there.
So what, like I said, if you can just if you can just once again can I tell you what we're supposed what you we need a completed application for a special permit we need to complete the checklist and we need a narrative of what he's doing on the property? Is that correct? That is correct. Am I missing anything that we need?
Well, certainly. So we will see the checklist and that's going to be based on the zoning agents and Scott's recommendation of what it takes. That will be reviewed by the Commission. Commission may agree with it and they may not agree with it.
But that's the paperwork we need to get to you. Is And that we can find all that on the website? Yes.
And what are you looking for in the narrative? Just a short summary of what he's doing?
I'm looking for a detailed discussion of what you're doing. Yes. Okay.
And that's supposed to be submitted two weeks prior to the next meeting? Ten days.
Ten days. Okay. And I'm assuming if all that's in, we will be able to be voted on at the next meeting? Yes.
Just so he can let the state know that there's an actual date of when we'll be voting on it. Does that sound correct? Yes.
And if we have stuff in two weeks before and you need more information, you'll be able to tell us so we'll have it ready for the meeting?
I will review it with Jim and give it my best shot. But it will be presented to the Commission at the next meeting. Okay. And if we do a lousy job of presenting your application, then maybe, well, it can be voted on at the next meeting. I can tell you that. Okay. You may not want it voted on at the next meeting, but I can ensure that we vote on it at the next meeting. Thank you so much. We appreciate that. And before we conclude this topic, are there any commission members that think we should do a site visit so that we can see what's going on better than what we saw in the photos.
Like All those clearly depict what's going on down there. Okay.
Very good. But for the benefit of the commission members, my experience in a couple of cases is if what we say doesn't always match what we get in writing, what we approve doesn't always get executed, And so I would like to try and get as good an understanding in writing so after the fact when it's not exactly what we said, we've got something to go back on as opposed to in this case, like many other cases, we go look at the record and there's no information there. I am at least as frustrated with that as Scott Bebe is.
I understand that. Think you, Scott will be in we'll work on this stuff. Scott will be in touch with Jim next week, if that's Okay.
Yes. That's great. I might not be with Jim, but I know Jim wants to work very hard to
help move this thing along. And we do as well. We thank you for your time and consideration and we will make sure to get a thorough application to you next time that I know will make you feel good about approving Scott's business because it's a wonderful business. I think it is. Thank you very much. Bye bye.
Okay, I think that completes the first item of whole business. Eric, are you still with us? I guess you have to be because you're facilitating my sharing I think. I am in fact still here. Okay.
Your item to tell us what you would like to get the open space funds for.
Okay, so first of all, those of you don't know, my name is Eric Anderson. I am the town administrator for the town of Andover. And there's two projects, I'd like to talk with you briefly. And really what I'm trying to do is sound out the commission and see whether the commission would be willing to consider the use of open space funds to do improvements on two town properties for the purposes of increasing the recreational opportunities in the town. And I'm going to share my screen here real quick. Okay.
Okay, so do you see a word doc up on your sheet? Yep. Okay, so the the first property I'd like to discuss is the town of Andover purchased a property from the merits. And we did it for kind of three purposes. The first purpose was to eventually use it as an improved parking area for the rail trail. The second was to create a very low impact picnic area along the brook there along Blackmans Brook. And the third thing was to preserve that area in general, but also allow the potential for commercial development on a portion of that. So, the area that we're interested in making into a parking area is what's outlined in red in this picture. And it's basically where everybody parks now, but just cleaned up
and done a reasonable job on so we can increase the parking capacity. As many of you know, currently the town really for official parking at for the rail trail only has the Andover being the area behind the Andover museum, which is frequently completely packed on the weekends. Now we also have a grant that will provide a new access area at Center Street also. But one of the things that we've been discussing for many years is try to spread it out a little bit so not everybody's parking in the same spot. And that's part of the reason why this parcel was purchased in the first part along Blackmans, which is also referred to as Cheney Brook. So, this is looking down Lake Road at that parking area. You can see it's plenty big enough to permit nose or tail in parking already in the center. But what needs to happen is some of the trees need to be cleared out of there, it needs to be properly rebrated, and it needs to be improved.
And then the access to the trail needs to be improved. And the other thing is farther down the screen, it's not really that visible in there. But one of the things we would like to do is put in the ability to have at least one potentially two horse trailers, because one of the biggest access complaints we've gotten for the rail trails fact that there's no place, you know, anywhere along the section where somebody can, you know, allow a trailer in. So that's part of what this would be to do. So, here you can see down at the very end would be the area, there's a flat area, which would be where we would envision putting horse trailers in. And lastly, we're talking about the low Impact picnic area. There's a spot right between the rail trail and the old bridge over Blackmans Brook that feeds Merritt Valley Road or that Merritt Valley Road goes over. And it's a pretty spot needs just a little bit of clearing. And it needs to be flattened off for a picnic area.
We're not talking about a very big area, we're actually talking about a pretty small area to deal with. And that would be essentially right in there in the center of the picture. And again, we're talking about very low impact, a picnic table, and a couple of chairs, And pretty much that's it, but just a scenic place on the rail trail where people can have lunch. And the great thing is because it's slightly lower than where the bridge over the rail trail is. It sheltered from a lot of the Route 6 traffic noise, which is why we kind of selected that spot. So the first question for the zoning commission is, would the planning and zoning commission be willing to allocate some of the funds from the open space fund to develop this? This is not an expensive project. We would probably do the tree removal as part of our normal tree trimming with distinctive tree care. And we would hope to use the public works group for a lot of the, the, you know, pulling the stumps with the excavator. So, it's not going to be an expensive project. You know, we're talking 3 to $5,000 for design and engineering, then flatten it off and bringing gravel. We're not anticipating paving the parking area, although it would be nice. We're simply going to do the engineering required to make sure we can get through wetlands, which is figure out how to do this without the runoff entering into Blackmans Brook, and then do the actual construction.
So, that a project that the Zoning Commission would consider for open space? So, that's really the first question for you. And if you guys are, this would have to come back to you again, you know, once it's kind of designed, you know, because the, the town will need to submit an eight twenty four referral to the zoning commission anyway, because it would be considered a municipal improvement. So, that's the question. That's the easy one because it's relatively low cost. Know, I have spoken to Mark Brantz about this in the past. It is perfectly legitimate to use open space funding for improvements that allow access to the outdoors or improvements that are, I mean you can't build buildings but in terms of building playscapes and recreational facilities, it's perfectly acceptable to spend open space money. The question becomes, is that a direction the commission's willing to consider,
you know, or not? So that's really the question I have for you. It doesn't really make any sense for us to go down the road with this if you're not gonna approve funding when we get to that point.
Any of the commission members have any questions for Eric or comments or thoughts proceeding along that path?
Eric, how much money do we have in the open space fund?
I we, I want to say right now we have 232,000.
Okay. We really need to develop things like this to be have access to the rail trail and also recreation for people in the towns. We have next to nothing. It's a good way to use that money.
What's the last, Eric, I can't remember the last time that there was an addition to the open space fund.
The last major addition was the town. The Board of Finance allocated $100,000 in refund from the unexpended fund balance. Right. That was probably four years ago. Right and since then we have we've gotten no allocations and nothing from subdivisions. Correct.
And it's interesting to note that I think it might be in the Planet Conservation and Development Open space funds during a survey of the town's people is one of the things that the majority of the town membership would approve or would like to have they're willing to pay more to have money go into the open space fund because they recognize the importance of open space. Right.
Yep, this was kind of a tough financial year so we didn't get to put any money in. Yep.
Might be tough for a while but one of the things that might be nice is if we were able to say, here's what we've done with some open space money, we'd like to put some more into that fund because we would like to actually get some additional open space property at some point in time too and be ready to go for that. But to me, it looks like a relatively modest expenditure of those funds to actually be able to do something for the town. I kind of think it's a good idea. Where
do you come up with the $3,000 to $5,000 cost
on this? So I just roughed it off out with you know, the public works supervisor, Jay Tuttle. And I spoke with the town engineer Brandon basically about what it would take him to sketch out and submit a wetlands application for this. So really those two figures kind of ballparked it. I mean, I can't give you, you know, haven't calculated, you know, down to the ton, how much gravel this is going to take. I mean, we know we're going to have to bring in probably four to five truckloads of gravel. So, know, we know that's a couple thousand dollars. We know we're going to run, you know, $500 or so with the town engineer. You know, in the, in the initial design phase. Know, and we know we may end up some depending on whether we dump the stumps on town property, actually haul them off, we may have some expense for that. So we're not looking at big expenses, but it's not free either. And frankly, what I would have liked to have done is just take it out of the building improvement fund, but frankly, I don't have the funding there, you know, to do some of the necessary projects and I don't really have any other pool of money that I can take this from. So either we sit on this for another year or we try to fund it out of the open space fund.
And that's kind of why I'm bringing this to you now.
I think the cost is low enough, and the, the value that we get from it is much higher that it would be worthwhile spending the 3 to 5,000 to do this.
One of the reasons that I brought up when we got money last and how often we get to add money to that fund is because it's not often. So, we really have to look at these dollars as dollars that are very hard fought dollars. That's 3 to $5,000 is not a lot and I'm for it to do it also but I just want everybody to understand that those dollars don't come easily.
So based on that Scott, would you be willing to make a motion that we would consider 3,000 to $5,000 project for a picnic table and upgrade the parking area?
I would We would just consider or we would approve?
Well, Eric asked us to consider. I guess we can't approve it until we're through with the eight twenty four referral. But I think the eight twenty four referral is pretty straightforward. I've done a little look in through our plan of conservation development. Again, is it authorized use of those funds? And I don't see any roadblocks there. So I guess if it didn't get done, we just wouldn't spend the money. But yeah, maybe it would be to approve $5,000 max for the project. Another
thing I wanted to question was when this, when would you start this work?
So if I knew the commission was willing to fund it, I would try to get the engineer doing the design work as soon as possible. I think a lot of this, this is one of those projects that can be done over the winter, presuming we don't get a real snowy winter. You know, right now I have enough drainage work to do that I wouldn't anticipate starting construction in the fall. But I think that is a project that a lot of that cleanup could be done over the winter, Presumably, it's not a super hard freeze.
Well, would motion to approve up to $5,000 for the parking area and the additional work for the picnic area along Merritt Valley Road. Looking for a second? And
if somebody seconded, I didn't hear it. I seconded Ms. Ann. Okay, thank you. Any other discussion on this particular motion?
I just want to confirm it's a motion to consider not to actually approve. Say again, Anne. It's a motion to consider it not to actually approve pending the 08/24 referral.
Maybe the motion should say approve $5,000 pending 08/24 referral. And I think we did that the last time we were looking at a piece of property and it didn't get approved and so we didn't spend it. Yeah, that's probably cleaner wording is approve it pending satisfactory 08/24 referral. So moved, Jed. Okay. Very good. Abby, you got that? Yes, I did. Thank you. Okay. Call for a roll call vote. Anne? Aye. Scott? Aye. Anne? Aye. Leanne? Aye.
And I vote aye as well. The motion passes five-zero-zero. Okay, Eric, now for the hard one.
All right, so the next one is in the same vein, but it's a little more speculative and it's not coming down the pike anywhere near as fast. And the second one is one of the things we've had on the back burner for the Veterans Memorial Field for quite a while has been construction of a playground. One of the comments we've gotten repeatedly is that other than at the school, the town doesn't actually have a playground. And a lot of people don't feel comfortable going to the school to go to the playground. And part of that is because the playground is partially in use in the summers now because of the cool program and the summer camp. And they really don't want kids mixing better in the summer camp versus, you know, just random people there with their parents, which I sort of understand, And also you have the issue that when school is in session, people with little kids really don't have an option for a playground in town. So of the areas we really have in town that are amenable to a playground, the most logical place is the Veterans Memorial Field. And the rec commission's been pushing this for a number of years. It looks like we're going to end up with some funding. There's a community member that's willing to make a pretty substantial donation. You know, in a relative that passed away his name. Know, and we're also the rec commission is busily applying for funding, you know, for a couple of from a couple of different sources. But the reality is we're not getting the whole
chunk of it. I think we can probably end up with two thirds of it, you know, but we're going to have $25,000 or more that we have to make up with with somehow. And the question again is, is this, and this is not a fully fleshed out proposal. I mean, we have a bunch of vendors that we've looked at. But we don't have, you know, we don't have any of the grants back yet. But the question becomes is that if we had a legitimate proposal and we knew where we were going to put it. And we had a significant portion of the funding. Would the commission consider spending open space money to complete that project. And
that would probably be I would say you're looking at at least, you know, being realistic probably making up something like a $25,000 shortfall and funding through open space funds. And again, I recognize that open space funds, you know, is pretty hard to come by. Certainly in my era on the commission, we guarded that pretty carefully and we thought very long and hard before we expended any of it. And I assume you'll do the same. So the question is, is that something the commission would be willing to consider. And I'm not really looking for motion right now. I'm just looking to start the conversation about what you guys would consider and whether that would be, know, is that a route we can pursue?
Any commission members have any comments or questions on this particular proposal?
I think that we should take that through the budget process next year.
I have a question. You were mentioning the covering the $25,000 pitfall. So are you under the hope that you're going to receive a grant for the other 50,000 or where?
So there's one smaller scale grant, you know, we're in the midst of applying for. It's quite a bit smaller than $75,000 but I think we can get 25 or so thousand dollars. And we have one person that's willing to make a fairly substantial donation. And my guess is we would end up fundraising to some extent. But the reality is, think looking at it objectively considering the grants that we're looking at, you know, we're gonna, there's gonna be a pretty significant shortfall, you know, unless we budget for that. And that's obviously a consideration.
Going back to Scott's comment that we should budget for it, and maybe we don't know the answer to this, would that be a line item for open space funding in the next budget? Or would that be a specific capital thing to put it towards the Recreation Commission? That's a good question.
You know, that's really more a board of finance question. The commission has. So, the, the public has never been particularly willing to give the town money above and beyond what it got for grant money for these projects. You know, the only additional funding we did get for the field was we did get the town to agree to pave the track at the field. But I think actually we not I don't remember whether that was budgeted for, or whether we just paid that out of the roadwork budget. There have been a couple of attempts to get some other amenities at that field and as far as I know all that has been snipped out at the budget stage or at the town meeting stage That has not been a real popular. So I'm not saying it's not possible, but I think there's a significant chance the public will veto it. But you never know.
Okay. Well, you again, based on how tight the open space funds are and how it doesn't seem like there's going to be a lot of opportunity to replenish that funding anytime in the future. I know you're not asking for an answer on that tonight, but that one's a little harder to swallow than the $5,000 for parking and picnic table.
Understood, understood. And if the answer is the board is not really interested in, does not think it's likely that would be an application you would accept, then we won't pursue it. There's not really any reason to if at least we won't pursue it through the open space fund. That's it.
Okay. Yeah. And I guess going back to we were looking to purchase that piece of property on Merritt Valley Road earlier. And I'm a little disappointed that that didn't have a different outcome for a couple of different reasons. But certainly, we need to have money in the open space account so that if a piece of property comes up and we want to pursue it, we have the money to go do it as opposed to nine. Sure. Any other comments by the commission on this before we conclude on this topic here for tonight?
Yeah, I would support giving, you know, using some of the open space funds for this playground, because even though it's not purchasing land, it's using land we already have, but still it's something that really benefits a good chunk of the population and it is a type of an open space thing. So I would support it, especially if you have grants and donations to cover probably at least half of it, if not more. So that I think I would support the open space funds being used for the playground.
Yep. And I think it would make a good case for you in the next budget where you put $25,000 in open space and just advertise it to be for a playground that we've already got all this additional funding in place to go do. If that wouldn't sell to the town, I don't know what would, but we spent a lot of time seeing what wouldn't this year. I like the idea. It's just like to have some money in hand so that if the piece of property came up that we wanted to go buy, we could go do it too.
Is Leanne. I have two questions and a comment. Go ahead, Leanne. You're saying about the Veterans Memorial Field. Is this the what's now the ball field directly as you drive in? Or is this diagonally across from there? And what was another ball field closer to Hop River Homes?
No. The location would be on town property. The other side of Riverside Drive really isn't town property. And without a much longer term lease than what we're ever going to get out of Pop River Homes, I wouldn't want to do a town improvement on property that, you know, we didn't own.
Okay. I guess I didn't realize that. And so where exactly would this be?
So can you see the screen, Leanne, or are you on the phone?
I'm on well, I'm on the phone, but I've been able to see all the screens so far. At least I think I have. Okay. Okay, I can see it now.
Okay, so I put an x roughly where that is. There's an existing, you know, kind of dilapidated the old food concession stand that we're hoping to move relatively quickly. And then also on that picture, you can see that old connex the shipping container that's actually been moved just it's no longer there. We're planning on locating that. There's also a small shed that's down in the low lying areas there that we're going to move up onto that little kind of plateau area between the field and that low lying parking area. And then the playground go in adjacent to that.
Okay, thanks. And I guess my my other question is simply what costs so much?
It sounds kind of crazy, but playgrounds are expensive. It's actually kind of shocking how much they go for. You know, we looked around at a bunch of different companies, you know, and by the time you actually put in a, you know, a reasonable sized playground, it's a very expensive proposition, more so than you would think, Looking at them.
I would not think. So, I mean, you know, I, I don't know how to build one, but. It sounds like a lot of money when you're talking about, you know. The idea of spending $25,000 on top of. Possible grant money and some private donations. So I guess my comment after the two questions, thank you, is that I would tend to agree with what Scott Prasanth said about making this a separate line item. It certainly fits under recreation as far as open space, but it's also been pointed out by Scott that we haven't had much money added into the open space fund. So it's a I think it's a good idea, but I almost think it should kind of stand alone.
And I'm I'm not sure from what Jeff said about if we went through the budget process as Scott put it next year, and then with Jeff's comment, would this be again, I know Eric said this is very preliminary. Would the idea be if we recommended that or suggested that, would it be worded as an addition to the open space when this the town would approve of? Or would it be like its own item? Are people thinking not necessarily having to do with open space anymore?
I would think if we were going to propose it, we would propose it as a stand alone project to put in a playground if we were gonna budget for that. We just budgeted as a capital expense. You know, if we're not using existing funds for it, I think that would be the most transparent way to do it, sir. So that's probably what I would go for.
Yeah, I think that would be a good idea. And I think Anne Creme is right. It's a good idea, and it's obviously recreation. I think the only thing is that it would again, it would be a chunk out of our open space funds that we primarily think of as geared towards purchasing land, although we can do other things with it. Sure.
Sure. Yep. No question. And that's part of why I'm putting this before the commission first before we go any further is because if your intention is to use this, the fund primarily for the acquisition of open space, as opposed to improving existing space, then it's not really a good fit and, you know, we'll go elsewhere for funding.
Sorry, what was the last couple of things you said?
Well, I just said that if, you know, if the commission doesn't really feel feels like they're want to hold on to that money for, you know, actually acquisition of more property, then this probably isn't a good fit. You know, we'll have to pursue other alternatives for funding. Okay, thanks.
I guess my thought, Eric, is that I would like to pursue the alternate funding to see if we could get it through a budget or come out of the big pot of COVID money that the town got. But if we try that and it doesn't work, then we take a harder look at giving it out of the amount of cash that we've already got. I'd like to be building that pot of money up as opposed to taking it down, but I do think it's important we do some good things for the town as well.
Sure. Okay. Okay. So, we'll put that on the back burner as far as the zoning commission goes. And I certainly appreciate your time and your consideration.
Okay, thank you. I don't know if you were since you're our screen share guy. Yeah. Guess I guess there's would I'm gonna try and if nobody puts me totally out of bounds because of the limitations on our screen sharing ability this evening, I would like to move new business discussion on the accomplishments of Planning and Zoning Commission last year and goals for the coming year up to next because once I've done that, I don't need to share screen with anything and Eric could go on his merry way. And this gives Eric a chance to laugh at how little we got done over the last year and we'll do that. So me so Eric, if you can allow me to screen share one more time. I guess it's
there.
Okay. You should be able to go now. Yep. So
at some point in the not too distant future, I expect that I'll get something from the town asking for our annual report. And so I just wanted to show what I thought the basis of that report will be once it gets here and talk about what we need to be working on for the year ahead, big picture things, so that when we put the goals for the coming year in, that reflects all of our inputs, not just me putting something down on a piece of paper that's due as soon as our next meeting gets done and we go from there. I started out by what were the goals that we put for this year in last year's annual report? And one was recruit the additional members and we filled all our vacancies. So we did that, that's pretty good. We did update the planning and zoning bylaws that hadn't been done in a while. The third one, thought we would do better on developing a better understanding of the application process to make this more user friendly for all concerned. And as the discussion with Scott Beebe pointed out tonight. Jimmy: I think we have not scored much of a success in that I thought my understanding of the regs was was a little better that I could, see my way through it. There was never anything easy on the subdivision thing because there's just so much different stuff that you got to look through on a subdivision that
it will never be easy. It's always going to be a little cumbersome and hard. But how we work with the people in the town who are really our customer to have come in before the Planning and Zoning Commission be a positive experience, we need to keep working on that. That didn't do so good. Then the last one was the, you know, the regulations for Andover Lake and we did issue the lake regs. So we met three out of four on last year's goals. We held 12 regular meetings, four special meetings or site walks and held three public hearings. So that's the nuts and bolts of what we did. I thought the accomplishments from last year, we approved the two lot subdivision on Webster Lane. We spent a lot of time on the application for 57 Hendy Road Building in the flood plain and redrawing the lot lines which ultimately was not approved due to the desired lot configuration not meeting our requirements for width. We approved the accessory apartment on Wales Road. We approved the lake regs. We updated the bylaws and we filled
our commission vacancies. So we've got a full commission with alder next. So is anybody aware of anything of any significance that we maybe did last year that isn't on that list? Okay, that was the easy part. A little bit harder goals for the coming year. One was to act on the applications received in a timely manner consistent with our regulations. That is the bread and butter of our existence. We have been meeting those. I'm sure we'll continue to do it, but it could not be a goal for the year, I guess. I would add to that, that to be a more customer oriented and be able to share our expectations And maybe that's a little bit that it's taken me a while to figure out what my expectations are. So it took a while to figure out how to share that. Develop an issue and incentive housing plan, the requirement that we have that done next June. To feed on that just a little bit and hit one of the other items I was going to talk to, you know, I have heard from I've got an inquiry from one guy who is going to submit a proposal to us. And you know, I've reached out to Bill Warner
and I'm hoping that he does as well. So I'm thinking we'll get two things in by the September 1 at the next meeting. I plan to bring whatever we get from that to discuss with the commission and you know, see there's a clear winner there or if you want to interview those people or how we should proceed at that point. But we should have the information that we're going to have at the next meeting when we get together.
Not to interrupt Jed, but what happened with that grant? Did we get that money to pay for that? I have not heard anything on that yet.
Maybe Eric knows something on that, but I can't imagine that we won't get it just because we got our application in so quickly.
So we don't know yet. They won't review them until October, or correction September 1, since she thought they'd have everything decided by like September 10. But she also said it was first come first serve. So since we got our application in pretty early, I can't imagine we're not going to get it but it's a state so you know, I wouldn't guarantee it either.
The next goal is once we have a plan, it will probably require changes to our regulations to implement the plan. And there's some other minor changes that we've identified over the past year that I would hope to put in to the same discussion if we don't end up bringing those before the commission in a public hearing prior to that. But I've got my list of things we've identified as we've gone along that should be pretty easy to implement for changes on that. And then the last goal is to begin work on the planet conservation and development. And again, this isn't due until 2025, but it is a fairly significant item. Well, I'm hoping that whoever we get to help us with our incentive housing plan, that would be somebody who might want to also work with us to develop the plan of conservation and development. We'll have to go through a bidding issue on that as well. But any other goals that we should have for the coming year? Jed, this is Leanne. Is that 2025 or 2023?
2025. Our last plan of conservation and development came out in 2015, which you probably seems like only yesterday you were working on that.
Actually, it seemed like longer ago than that. That's why I
Yeah. It was 2015. And so next one's due 2025.
Okay. We certainly are being proactive. I guess I had the opposite feeling that it seemed longer ago instead of last time. Thanks. No, we've got
time to do it and do it right. But it's a big project. And certainly I don't know anything about doing one of those. And so I'll probably be the holdup as we proceed down that path. Any other goals for the year? Okay. I think that concludes that. And let me just show one more thing then before I let Eric go. Let's see. I'm going stop sharing this. And this is, know the lettering's kind of small on that. I just wanted to have a brief discussion on the Board of Selectmen put out a resolution supporting implementation of the new cannabis law in the town of Andover.
And so I wanted to make all the commission members aware of that. Right now, our regulations don't support selling cannabis in town. There's a very short section, I think it's section 17 of our regs that talks about the rules for package stores. I'm thinking that that can be easily updated to be package stores and cannabis shops. But we'll get a chance to do that. I would ask you all to take a look at that section 17 of our regs before the next meeting and we can talk about that some more. The other thing is that some people might want to farm cannabis and again not sure exactly how that's going to work. I know the state's got, you know, they're trying to give towns with some equity programs so that the people who are most affected by cannabis use get the most funding for it to help combat that. And Andover wasn't on the list to be considered for that. I'm not sure how that goes through the state, but I would think that if you're cleared by the state, farming's farming, and we know how to do farming in Andover, and that wouldn't be much of a change. But it is, you read the River East and some of the papers, see some other towns where the planning and zoning commissions are taking a stand against selling marijuana, cannabis down. And we could still do that, but the Board of Selectmen let us know the direction that they would certainly like to go. And if we got any big thoughts on that, we'll talk about that at the next meeting. It's getting sort of late and so we won't have that discussion here tonight. But that'll be coming up. And I wanted to share with you where we were.
So with that, I think I don't need to do any more screen sharing, Eric. Appreciate you stepping in. We'll get Abby Smart on how to be the host before the next meeting so that we get her to do that because I don't know how to do it. And that's why I can't teach you, Abby. That will have to be something you get from Amanda. But it's easy to do, especially for somebody younger than me. Understood. So Eric, thanks for bailing us out on that tonight. You're certainly welcome to stick around, but I'm sure you've had your fair share of meetings.
Erin, recording the Say again? You're recording the meeting too. I'm not sure if that continues after you leave, but Yeah, so that's the other question I have. Get you to the cloud so it'll continue. I also got the login information. I didn't have it previously so I can log in as the town once you log off. Eric's you're all set. Okay,
very good. Thank you, Eric. In that case, best of luck folks. Yep, thanks for all you do. It's a lot of work. Abby, I am going to assign you as the host as I leave.
Okay moving back up to the old business, the affordable housing plan, I said all that I want to say on that. Moving down to the legislative update. Jim, did you want to talk about that at all? I showed you what I sent out to all the commission members and
I really didn't have anything to add. I just would like to be able to keep to send out whatever I can find on new legislation. That's about it.
Okay. Then we won't have any more to do on that tonight. Can you give us, Jim, an update on the implementation of the revised or the implemented lake regulations and what you've seen so far with respect to that?
Well, there's been a few applications that have come in and the new house, I wasn't able to, I had to approve the application contingent upon compliance at a later point in time. Involved a lot of blasting and I couldn't come up with a plan. There's another, a couple of other projects in process where we are working on basically the mitigation plan. Relatively minor, one's a garage, involves some additional, some stone trench. I believe there's two separate and a utility structure I'm working on that presently. If we had a submitted nutrient allocation worksheet.
Yes. Oh. I want say 344 Lake. Okay. And that was submitted by Brandon Hanfield on behalf of the owner of, he happens to represent the town in a number of cases. He was not representing the town in this particular situation. It was, I believe his previous, his father-in-law on the property previously. He completed the nutrient allocation plan and I'm looking at that currently as well. I'm just happy that we actually got one in.
And then you was the guy that submitted it. I think he's a great guy to be smart on that process with us. Yeah,
I'm becoming a little more comfortable with them and hopefully next few weeks I'll have it down. Okay.
That completes the old business. Moving on to new business. We've discussed the cannabis implementation or regulation. We did the open space funding discussion. We did the planning and zoning commission goals. You're getting caught up fast. So the next item here is approval of the minutes from the regular meeting on July 19. So I'm looking for a motion to approve the July 19 meeting minutes and public hearing minutes.
This is Leanne. Move to approve the July 19 regular and public hearing.
Thank you, Leigh Ann. Can I have a second? I'll second. Thank you, Scott. Any discussion?
Just this is Leanne again. I just had something minor. And I have so many screens open. Okay, there it is. Let me see. Still looking. I know what it was. I just don't see it now.
Okay, we'll let you continue looking there for a minute. Anybody else have any comments or corrections on the minutes? Okay, had on page two, the regular meeting under the membership, we had Scott Bersand listed as present twice. That goofed me up a little bit as the more significant item is on page four, the second paragraph, where the motion failed four-one-zero. If the motion were voted on four ten, it would have been approved. So I think we, as I recall, there were two people who voted for it and three people who voted against it. And we need to list who voted against it. And I think those voting against it were myself, Scott, and Kevin. That's also what I remember.
Okay, because I think this is what I was talking about. What number is it again? It's on the top of page four, the second paragraph down.
And it can't have been Kevin who disapproved it because he was not seated. It must have been Steve Nelson. I remember it was the three guys that were against it, the two gals were for is how my memory serves me on that. Is this page four, the second paragraph down?
Yep. It says, Ankermey moved to approve the planning and zoning application 128 Wheeling Road.
Is this the regular minute that we were sent? Or the one Yep, with the
let me just so the regular minutes start on page two of six, and this comment is on page four of six. Now maybe my printer prints them out different And
you're right. I didn't what I was going to say well, this is the item I was trying to find. I you're probably right. I forgot that it was two and three. What I was going to say is because it wasn't unanimous, we usually put down who voted how everyone voted. But you're saying in addition to that, that it was three to two, not four to one?
Correct. Actually, it was two to three. So normally they're all five, zero, zero, all approved. On this one we had two approved, three disapproved, and we need to list those people who disapproved and by process of elimination you can go back to who is actually seated and you'll know who approved it in that case.
Okay, so what okay, so that answers part of my question about putting down who voted in what manner. Yes. So your recollection is that it should say
It should say, Ankremay moved to approve planning and zoning application 20 One-four, 128 Wheeling Road. Scott Person seconded. By roll call vote, the motion failed two to three to zero, with Scott Person, Steve Nelson, and Jed Larson opposed.
Okay, well, two things. One, don't you start out with the people oh, I think I see what you mean, the people who were in favor. I believe I voted no as well. I think Ann Kerme was the only person voting aye. Okay.
In that case, then it would be one to four to zero with you in opposition as well, Leanne.
I had a comment and a question. So this was the item I was trying to find. And you answered my question about naming because it wasn't unanimous naming who voted in what way. And then also, I see what you mean because the motion is in the affirmative. So you start out voting with whoever voted in the affirmative, if any, and then go on to the no vote.
Yep. That's how I think it works. I see. Okay. So yes, I did vote against it. Okay. So then so, Abby, it should say motion failed, one to four, zero abstain, and then you list the four of us who in opposition, who voted against it. And did you have those four names, Abby? Yeah, I got them. Thank you. Yep. And that was the only other comment that I had on the minutes. So based on that, I'll just run through the list here with a roll call vote. And for me? You muted in. Yeah, I can see your mouth going. Thank you, Scott. Aye. Ann Blanchard. Aye. Leanne. Aye.
And I vote aye as well. The minutes are approved five zero zero. Next item is a correction to the minutes that were approved concerning our May 17 meeting. And Jim, had you gotten any guidance from the town clerk on the proper way to address a correction to approve minutes?
Yes. The fact of the matter is once minutes are approved by a commission, they cannot be further corrected. There could be a note in the file, not in the file, but in subsequent minutes reflecting a change or correct just a notification. In this case, Bill Phillips, Donna Phillips, application 57 Hendy Road in May, minutes ago they were in fact there, which very well could have happened because they didn't speak. So on a Zoom meeting, would be easy to miss them, nonetheless they were there and wanted record to reflect that. So I'm asking the commission to do so. Okay.
It would just be a simple notation that would be acceptable to the town clerk.
Okay, so for the minutes, let the minutes show that Bill and Donna Phillips were in attendance at the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting held on 05/17/2021. Sounds perfect. Okay. Moving on to correspondence, Jim. None. Moving on to administrative reports and enforcement actions.
I did initiate a dialogue actually today with, sent a letter out to
We dropped zinc on you, Jim. I didn't hear you there. Let me start again.
Okay, I sent a letter out to Steve Barnett, who is the owner of property at 644 Route 6. A number of people have voiced complaints about what's transpiring on this property, which a number of things have been approved there over the years,
special permits. Okay, yeah, let's make sure everybody's aware of the property you're talking about, that's where the taco stand was just as you head towards Columbia.
Right hand side of the road heading towards Willamette, yes. Across from Parker Bridge, is it? Yes, is, almost directly, yes, directly across the Parker Bridge, yes. So I sent the letter out asking that he would meet me on-site and discuss what was approved versus what is happening there. Trust that he will contact me. Okay. Anything else?
Administrative wise, we do now have Gabby as our new board clerk. I don't know whether she was formally announced, and she's also working in the building office a couple hours on Monday nights when the town office is open late. This is a help because we had, six months ago we had somebody in that office thirty hours a week administrative support and we're down to ten. So now we're back up to twelve, Abby's two hours. That'll give her time to help with, hopefully, with some administrative support.
That's all I got. Are we keeping our head above water in the office there?
Well, we're starting to. It's better than it has been. We're also in the process of converting to an electronic permitting system and I say in the process, we haven't started, we've had a sort of dialogue with the tech rep and it's supposed to start today and to the best of my knowledge, it been set up. So I will follow-up on that tomorrow. I don't know how it's gonna work. You know, as you may or may not know, we have permits are typically signed off on by numerous parties including, you know, the health department whose office is in Mansfield, the building official who we utilized, the building official in Bolton, the wetlands agent whose office is in Andover and myself and this is an attempt to try and streamline the process. It'll be it'll be interesting to see how it works. It it apparently has this particular system has worked well elsewhere. We'll see how it works here. Okay. And so,
you know, for the commission, for those people who attended any of the town meetings with regard to the budget, you will recall that one of the cost savings that we've presented this year was elimination of the full time land use admin person to be shared part time. And so we're still coming through there. Was willing to see how that went. Guess going from thirty hours where we were struggling to do all that we wanted that person to do and going down to ten or 12, I think it's going to be difficult to provide the support we need to the town people. I think it takes I know Jim ends up spending a lot of time doing things that he wouldn't normally be involved in doing that might be detrimental to doing some of the things that we would like to have him do for the Commission here. So as we look towards budget season next year, it's not clear to me that that's going to be the way we need to balance the budget is by continuing to reduce the support staff in the town hall there. But we can discuss that more when we get to budget season next year, but I wasn't necessarily a fan of reducing the hours and the support that much.
How much longer, Jim, until the electronic is back running?
So it's set up. It was supposed to have been set up today. When I, I don't believe it was, it may have been, I'm not aware of it. I mean, could have happened after I left the office. So this week it's gonna be set up, whether we are, it's gonna be a challenge working with it, think. Yeah. Teaching folks to, the idea is public will be submitting applications online, so there'll be fillable forms, which we don't have currently. Right now you could download a form from the town's website, but then you fill it out and get it to the office either by scanning it and sending it or dropping it off. Is gonna be a streamlined process and more interaction. So in theory it should work, it should work a lot better. In practice, I'm hoping it does.
Are we still in arrears with the permits down there?
I believe we're we're catching up. I signed off a bunch today. I think I think there's maybe three or four left that just yeah. No. We're we're we don't have the the arrears that we used to. No. Far as I signed off on on those where where zoning permits were necessary. Can't speak what happens to them after they go to building. Building building officials in Bolton turn around pretty quick in my it's my understanding anyway. They're relatively quick.
Any other topics for us, Jim? No. Okay. Moving on to commission discussion and miscellaneous. Anybody got any? Hello? Yes, Leanne.
Yes, I before we move on, have a question for you or Jim or probably Scott. I think you just mentioned something about Abby working two hours on Monday night. Yes. Yeah. I think it's important. The whole idea of the town office building being open until 07:00 on Monday night is for people who to come in, who it's not good to come at any other time. And I I guess with the assistant town clerk being asked to cover the building department as well, it's been an issue of training and something to do with the union. And I don't know if there was another factor, but I personally am a big advocate of people being trained to do anything. So I'm hoping that this is gonna get smoothed out way before next budget season. I'm not saying that it won't. It just seems to be ongoing as far as you know, I I hope that the assistant town clerk is getting all the training she needs and that Abby's getting all the training she needs, and not just with this new electronic permitting thing because people do have questions that are necessarily to do with the implementation of that.
We we had Cathy Lund, the lady that used to work there working for I think a month and a half, right, Jim? Sounds pretty, pretty regularly. She was working, I think twenty hours a week to get the assistant up to speed and to relieve some of the pressure with the permit. Okay. Mess that we had going on. So that that straightened a lot of it out Leanne and Abby's gonna help too with some of the clerical stuff down there. And hopefully it'll get straightened out, I kind of think like what Jed's saying, I think that there's gonna be, we're gonna need more hours down there, electronic or not.
I think you might have faded out on us, Leigh Ann, there. I know you were talking about how important those functions are. And we'll wait and see. But towards the end, I think we missed you. At least I did. I'm sorry, what? Say again, whatever your last comment was.
Oh, it was just mainly about cross training and that somebody who can somebody be available to answer questions because even once this permitting electronic permitting thing gets fully implemented, people do have questions. People from the public do have questions that might not necessarily be about that. So I think it would be nice if people could walk in and be able to get an answer because people had the manpower and that they were trained and not be put off.
I agree. And that's why I wanted to talk about it with the Commission here just a little bit tonight. Okay, thanks. Okay,
moving on to Commission discussion or miscellaneous. Any other topics Commission members want to bring up tonight? I guess, you know, I just reiterate that it would be nice if our regulations were easy to follow through. But I do think we owe it to ourselves. To review, to expect the applicants to be able to come in and tell us how they are complying with our regulations. And I know they're going to need some help from Jim to be ready to do that. And we need to be able to go through the regulations too. And unless we go through in the painstaking way that we did tonight, we
will not figure out where the weak spots are in a regulation so that we can go off and fix them if necessary. And so it's important that we do that. And that just needs to be part of our routine that, again, the subdivisions I'm still working on that one. But when we've done the accessory apartments, when we did the flood zone, when we did this kennel thing, And even the discussion about width of a lot. The words were pretty good. We just need to keep going back to what do the regulations say. And we are allowed to make zoning regulations. But once we've made them, we are obligated to enforce them. And by not knowing what they are, it's tough to do that. So I want to try and tighten that process up and just make sure that we're referencing the regulations for our approval of applications.
Right. I think that's an excellent idea Jed. I think that every time we have an application we should review some of the actual regulations and how they're read. This isn't the zoning board of appeals. It's not a gut thing. It's a regulation. It's like a stop sign.
Yep. Any other comments on that thought? Okay. Any other comments on any other thought?
Good. We do have on, maybe I missed it, but discussion returned to live planning and zoning. I mean, suspect at this point in time you're
defer that on that but I just wanted to make sure No, thanks for keeping me honest and I expect all you guys to keep me honest when I do something wrong or miss something there but with the way the COVID numbers are going right now, I'm very comfortable continuing at the present time with the online meetings. They've tightened up going into town hall again and that sort of thing. And things just don't seem to be going in the right direction right this minute. So I'm thinking we'll just stay with the Zoom meetings there. The next meeting is on the September 20, I think, so third Monday. Okay. So thank you for that, Jim. Nobody else from the public is here. So no public comment. And my goal is to get us out by 09:30. I see 09:29. So I take a motion to adjourn. A motion to adjourn. Thank you, Scott. Can I have a second? I second that. Okay. And I will just ask if there's anybody opposed? Hearing none, the
motion passes five-zero-zero. Appreciate, again, your help on filling out the commission. That was a good goal from last year. I think all you people are doing a good job of attending. We're all getting smarter. And I appreciate your support. So with that, I bid you all a good evening. Good night.