Meeting transcript
Planning and Zoning Commission - Public Hearing & Regular Meeting
July 19, 2021 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
I'm waiting just another minute. I know that Scott Persson was texting me with questions up to just a minute or two ago so I think he's got to be close by. I didn't get to answer his questions because I was busy trying to get signed on here but I think he'll be joining us. Okay, Scott, just disregard the text I just sent you. I see you popping in there. And it's 701, and I would like to call the public hearing to order. And the first thing I'd like to do is we do have a couple of new folks joining us tonight. I don't know who's on everybody else's screen, but Steve Nelson's got the prime spot on mine here. He's our newest member of the Planning and Zoning Commission
as of the July 1. So he has taken over a seat on the commission that was vacated by Susan England who has gone off to be an alternate. And we also have Abby Winter with us tonight. And she is our new board clerk for the land use department. I'd like to thank Mindy for all the great work that she's done over the last, I don't know how long Mindy's been with us, but she's been here for a little while now and has been doing just an exceptional job. I understand, I think she's living in South Windsor now, so the distance for if we went back to holding an in person meeting might be just a little excessive. And so she resigned. And we
got Abby Winters in place to take her. That was a pretty remarkable quick turnaround. So after we get done with the public hearing and all the official business of the night, I'll let Steve and Abby tell us a little bit about themselves. And I do see a phone number that joined us. Is that you with us, Leanne? Yes.
Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay, so we've called the public meeting to order. A couple of things about that. As you probably saw when you signed in, the meeting is being recorded. So remember that when you're making your comments. One of the things that I would like to ask is that if members of the public are speaking during the public hearing or for that matter during the regular meeting that we get your first and last name. I know when we are keeping the minutes sometimes it's tough to get those names and if we were to ever have to get back to you on anything, it's nice to be able to have your full name so we can get ahold of you there. As we do the public hearing and I don't expect that it will go too long tonight because we primarily I wanted to hold the hearing open because Jim Allisley was not able to attend the last meeting and wanted to give him a chance to speak on the record.
And so we'll give him that chance tonight. But during the public hearing, any of the commission members, including the alternates, can ask whatever questions you want. Once we get into deliberation at regular meeting, only those people who are actually seated, and I think we've got the full commission here tonight, our aldermits will not be seated. The aldenits won't be able to ask questions during the deliberation, only those people who will vote on the application. So that's a little preliminary. The purpose of the public hearing is let me get rid of my diving alarm here. The property known as 26 Old Farm Road aka Assessor's Map 28 Block 7 Lot Six-twenty 3, applicants seeking a special permit for two rear lots in accordance with section 4.9
of the Andover zoning regulations and a two lot open space cluster re subdivision in accordance with section 5.5 of the Andover zoning regulations and Andover subdivision regulations in their entirety. Note as proposed, this resubdivision
is comprised of one lot with access off Old Farms Road via an easement and one lot accessed off Pine Ridge Drive near the cul de sac.
So with that, I will give the applicants one last chance if there was anything else that they wanted to discuss with your application before we headed on. Now is your chance, George or Eric. I don't have anything. Okay, Eric?
Yeah, I mean, the only thing I would add is that there has, Andrew Bushnell has another like revision to the plans that have just a few of the things that were brought up at the first session of the public hearing. Among them, the town of Coventry, the appearances of the town of Coventry, and a couple other things I can't quite recall off the top of my head, we have those. Nothing material changed with the plans that were discussed at the last hearing. The last part of this hearing. Yep,
Very good. With that, Agent Halsey, is there anything that you would like to get into the public hearing with respect to the application?
No, I've dealt with this application and the applicants for quite some time. It was fairly complicated application involved wetlands. And they've pretty much they've addressed my concerns as they've gone. The only outstanding issue that I don't know is those that discussed is the drainage structure that is situated off the driveway. And I'm concerned that that be maintained in perpetuity. Towards that end, I did throw a condition in the draft motion that would address that. That's where that came from. Other than that, I've tried to get all the information from the applicant and their engineer. I don't know if if the any some of the members of the Commission are aware of the wetlands. Process that that they went through. But part of it was about some mitigation, pulling some plants, some invasive species and planting new plants over the course of time. And that is condition of the wetlands approval. So it's not being addressed by the Planning and Zoning Commission. That's all I have. Okay.
And with regards to that, Jim, on one of the questions, and I don't know that I put that into the conditions for approval that we were discussing earlier, wanted to make sure that we did not preclude the applicants from removing the invasive plants in the easement area. You know, it talks about not cutting anything down and that sort of thing. We did ask them and they did agree that they were going to remove the barbary that's out there and plant some native plants. So when we get to the point of discussing conditions of approval, please keep me honest and make sure we get that part. Okay, think that can be addressed pretty easily. Yep, very good. Do any of the Commission members have any questions for the applicants at this point? And Scott, you had asked me if I had seen this one article of the regs and I was not able to find that before we got online tonight. So if there was a question or something regarding that particular section of the regs, I need some help understanding what that is. Okay. I don't know, I couldn't find it.
Okay. Thought, yeah, I couldn't find it in there either. Now what made you come up with that particular number? No, it's when we get to
accessory apartments. Oh, okay. I got you. Yeah, I'm sorry. Not this application here. I will take the opportunity to just ask the applicants one additional question for my you helped me learn. This was the application where I learned all about driveways. But you had a comment in the notes that you considered solar application with respect to your development. And I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. I think the regs actually ask for what you considered in that sort of thing. And I can go I'll get that particular thing, but I'm just trying to make sure that I think solar is the wave of the future and we should be encouraging the ability to do that wherever we can.
I think then George jump in, feel free. The main thing we're considering this is the orientation of the structures. Yep.
On one side of the the on lot closer to Pine Ridge. Most likely the, like, broadest face of the building is probably gonna be facing south, and we're we're thinking about that on the other side. But we intend to, we definitely intend to build with solar and, you know, as feasible as it is, given the lot and the trees that are left behind where we can make things face. You know, there's tax credits and things you can qualify as you build with them. We intend to take advantage of them. Okay.
Thank you. And just for everybody's information here, that article 7.15 of the subdivision rigs says the plan submission for subdivision shall demonstrate to the commission that the applicant is considered in developing a plan using passive and active solar energy techniques which would not significantly increase the cost of the housing to the buyer after tax credit subsidies and exemptions. And so I think what we're really looking for there is the orientation of the house to take advantage of the sunlight. And if you're doing that, that's all that we would ask for.
Yeah, that is our goal. Eversource has programs that they have available. Some of the programs have a time limit, but programs are always coming and going. And when we do actually start to build, we're going to take advantage of whatever programs are available from Eversource.
Okay. I know know you Eric had mentioned that you'd corrected some of the administrative items in the application. One of the questions that came up last time was identification on the drawings of the iron pins for boundary corners and monumentation. Those were not put on the drawings that we've had. So I guess my question is, is the updated drawing been submitted yet so that to Jim so that we have access to that or is that still in the process of making it his way? And did you get those boundary markings and monuments required by the regulations put in there?
Yeah, the drawing is in transit. I think the plans are in transit. They probably have not arrived yet. I don't I don't think Andrew sent them over. So you know we'll get them over shortly. To answer the second part of the question. We did talk about this and I think there's on our side a little bit of uncertainty as to whether or not now, like these need to be on the plans at this moment. One example we discussed is, you know, we don't have approval of the subdivision, you know line as of yet. Yeah. There's no survey pins there. We're, you know, so is now the time that's required or is it is it something we would do when we submit has built as a condition of the, like the CEO.
Agent Halsey, you got any insight on that? I share Eric's question as I was going through the regs. I know when we're all done, we get the as built drawings, you know, expect to have it all done. Let me believe that it would show proposed an existing monumentation. So even though the subdivision isn't approved yet, you could put a proposed monument on the drawing and then when it gets to be as built, would take proposed off and they would all be existing at that point. Is that how that works, Agent Halsey? That's fine. They could be on-site plant as proposed. My preference is that they'd be labeled either existing or proposed.
Design professionals sometimes tend to leave that off and you have to guess. So that can be addressed as part of the site plan, part of the as built. It shouldn't be a problem at all. Okay.
Take a look at the draft motion and tweak it perhaps.
The as built is when the foundation is in, the surveyor comes and picked up a corner of the building and puts it on the print. The which there's quite a few on that lot, should be on the print it's brought to the commission.
They can be on the print as far as I'm concerned, they can be on the print as proposed. And then the as built would show that they are installed, that the pins are installed. Usually done during typically very done during the construction process.
And the reason for asking the question is, you know, when we get to items like change the notes to reflect the Andover instead of Coventry, if that's already been accommodated, we won't put that in a condition of approval just to get that list a little shorter. But if the monumentation, well now I think we're all a little clearer on how that should work. It would be nice that when the mylars get presented for my signature after the the subdivision is approved that it does have existing and proposed monumentation on there, and I would only call your attention to the fact that there needs, there are, there is some monumentation associated with the easements that you have that will clearly define that. So we'll make sure we get that put right in the conditions. I don't have any other questions for the applicants and at this time if there are any members of the public who are online, Speak up and we'll hear from you at this point. The fire department
letter, was that submitted? I can't remember, Jim. Yes, it was. Okay, thank you.
Yeah, I'm just looking through who's here and I don't see any members of the public and having heard none. I would like looking for somebody to make a motion that we close the public hearing. So moved.
Thank you, Scott. Can I have a second on that? Second it.
Okay. With that, all in favor of closing the public hearing, raise your hand so we can see. Leanne, I can't see you raising your hand there. I'll have to get a voice vote from Leanne. Aye. Okay, thanks Leanne. Any opposed? I didn't see it either. Okay.
I see no opposition. So the motion passes five-zero-zero. And at this point, I would like to call the regular meeting to order at 07:21. Roll call and seating of alternates. I see regular members Anne Cremay, Scott Persson, Steve Nelson, Leigh Ann Hutchinson, and myself all present, in addition to Anne Blanchard and Kevin Arneson present. So neither alternates will be seated. Susan England is absent tonight as an alternate. Item three on the agenda is additions or changes to the agenda. Anybody have any additions or changes? Hearing none, we'll move on to item four, public comment. Anybody from the public that's present that wants to talk on any item other than the subdivision we just had the public hearing on? Hearing none, I'll move down to old business item 5A and it's the application of George Korea and Eric and Melissa Liteska, 28 Old Farms Road, aka Assessor's Map 28 Block 7, Lot Six-twenty 3. Applicant is seeking a special permit for one rear lot, two in total, and two open space cluster subdivisions in accordance with Section five of the Andover subdivision regulations in their entirety. At this point, Agent Halsey, do you have any other comments on the application?
No, just for clarity. There was a rear lot approved years ago. So at this point, they're looking for one additional. So at one point, says one lot and the other it says two, just a total of two, one additional. Just for clarification. Yep. Thank you. Okay.
Very good. Would anybody like to make a motion to approve the subdivision? And when we get into the discussion on any motion that we have, we would go through conditions of approval as part of that discussion.
Commissioner Larson, I do have the draft motion, which you're welcome to use. Can you call that up on our screen?
I can't. I'm on my iPad. I can read it to you.
No, I think Mindy has got it there for us. Yep, so stop Yep. Right there. We'll give us a chance to all read through that.
I do want to point out that there were no waivers requested. There are no there's no need to act on waivers. It's easy to overlook.
Scroll down a little bit there, Mindy. Thank you. Okay, the thing that that I don't see in the proposal in we can add is in the easement, we should authorize removal of invasive plants. So Mindy, if you can scroll back up to where it talked about the easement in here. Think that was. Covered it. Where is that covered? Number two.
However, I am not sure that I ever addressed the monumentation of of that of the of the open space area. Okay.
I'm trying to I mean, the applicant submitted a draft. Yep. I wasn't going to have it reviewed before it was approved just because anyone incurred the legal expense, quite frankly. And the form they use has been used before it was used to came from Grimaldi's. So the format has been is not new to to our land use council. I'm not sure where it originally came from, but he is he approved Grimaldi's and this one. The Korea Tesco, the covenant was based on that.
Okay. And just for the applicant's information here, when there are couple of comments on the driveway. Did we get a letter from Brandon, Jim, saying that he thought the driveway supported to 70,000 pounds or
addressed it by under here that he just said add notes that the driveway shall be capable of supporting emergency equipment up to 70,000 pounds design construction materials, be certified by a professional engineer. That should be professional, not profession. I mis engineer and submit it to the town for you prior to construction. So by adding that note, it's required it's requiring that that be addressed at the time of construction. Okay. That's the way he addressed it in his comments.
Now, just remember seeing some letter that we got that you sent out late this afternoon from Brandon, and I can't remember. No, that was about the gravel pit. Okay, so that's a different and that was not posted.
So I'll bring that up under the gravel pit when we get there.
So where can we add what you were talking about, Jed? Invasive.
I'll get there in a minute. I was just looking to make sure I've got a note, I will read it off here in a minute. And I was trying to see if the draft motion here had monumentation in it.
It does, but I want to be clear what monumentation is for the open space I think, right? Well it talks about monumentation. Let me
go down to I think it's on two there down.
So under Monumentation Section 7.12 of our subdivision regs. It says iron pin shall be installed at all lot corners. The commission shall require installation of such monuments in iron pins as a condition of approval of the subdivision or re subdivision. Doesn't mean they need to be installed already. It's just a requirement that they are installed.
Right, but this is this is saying monument monumentation that our regulation said all monumentation and steel pins. So these are two different things. Steel pins and monumentation are two different things. Yep, I understand. And there's some words in there that talk about
monuments shall be placed at all block corners, angle points, points of curves in streets and at intermediate points on tangents over 600 feet in length in principle corners of the lots.
All I'm getting at Jed is that it says the monumentation. It doesn't say monumentation and impingement.
Point taken. I honestly use the term interchangeably but perhaps wrong.
And I know in here, and I can't put my finger on it right at the moment, it does talk about under the conservation easement that monuments be installed there to identify the easement.
And I just tried to address that by way of number four there. Yeah, okay.
So you just need to change that number three to all monumentation and pins will be installed.
Okay. And I'm looking back for which number was it where we're changing profession to professional or whatever that was that you had a comment, Jim? Well, it's under one. It's the £170,000, right underneath 70,000 pounds. Yeah, yeah, third note. Just
change profession to professional. If you go to number six, just want to make sure that it's clear what I'm trying to do here is the applicant shall take appropriate action to ensure that the drainage structure shown on the approved plan is maintained in perpetuity. What I'm talking about here is there is a drainage structure that's on the plan. It's designed to accommodate the driveway drainage, the driveway leading from Old Farms Road. I'm not sure the best way, I mean, basically that can't be built. You couldn't put a building on that space in that structure area, for instance. So I'm looking for some sort of language in the land records. I'm not sure what is the best approach. So I'm kind of deferring. It's really a legal issue. And I was just throwing it back to the applicant and the applicant's attorney could handle it by way of a deed, in the deed. I don't know. I'm leaving it open for them. That's what I'm getting at by way of number six.
Okay, so at this point I had the following additions or changes to what's displayed on the screen. On condition one, the third note, we would change profession to professional. Under item three, we would add after monuments and iron pins. And in item four, we would add removal of invasive plants from the easement is authorized.
From the from the area, from the open space area. The open space easement
from the area. Easement to me sounds like the document. Maybe it's just me.
Okay, so number four would be removal of invasive plants from the open space area is authorized.
Sure. And that'll be addressed when when the covenant is reviewed. And the covenant should should have that language in it. Yeah. In my opinion. If that's what you want, that's where it belongs.
Okay, and I was looking and you thought maybe it might not be necessary, but I thought we were going to have an item on damage to the Dubies driveway as a result of equipment or materials being brought into the building site would be repaired by the applicants. I think that's in there. Number five. Okay, very good. Yep. So that's there. Okay.
Just just to be clear, I'm referencing the plan that you all reviewed, the plan that is on the website, the plan that I have a paper copy of. And as far as I'm concerned, the plan that Andrew changed, that's that's a worksheet for him. You know, I'd like to see him incorporate whatever changes the Commission adds as condition. Commissioner Andrew But I don't want to get I don't want to confuse things with another plan that that was never presented so I'm referencing the plan that we revised. Commissioner Andrew I believe it's I have a date on there of I believe 08/2020 and revised through 06/1421 I believe. I agree. And
that's why I didn't make an issue of removing the Andover to Coventry or vice versa there.
Okay. And that should be all in here. I believe it is. I want it clear that this draft motion is intended to work with in concert with the plan revised to 06/14 and not any subsequent plan. Okay. And that's what it says. Yes.
Okay. So at this point I am looking for a motion to approve the application with the conditions as specified.
That. Second, this is Leanne. Oh, I'm sorry, Scott. I guess you weren't done. No. Go ahead, Leanne.
No. I was just gonna second it, but I wasn't sure. I don't know if I cut you up as to how much of it you were gonna repeat. No. I move to approve the plan as specified. Then I'll second. Any discussion?
I want further comment. I hope I structured this correctly. I mean, the applicant needs a needs a special permit in order to get the subdivision approved. I put them together. Hope that's I assume that's okay. I could have structured it separately so that special permit was approved first. And then the subdivision was acted upon. I didn't. I think this is okay.
Okay, Jim, on the on what we have displayed right now. Yes. Under item one, it's the precast concrete box culvert blah blah blah. Does that line end with page six or is page six in there an artifact of it going over from one page to the next in something we were working? I see page six on there between that and the driveways on that exceed a grade of 10%.
I believe those two comments below that are page six, are on page six of the plans. Okay, you're right.
That is, okay. Yeah, I could have made that clearer, suppose.
Nope, just so we all understand what that is. Okay, Any other discussion on the motion? Hearing no further discussion, I will call for a roll call vote. Anne Gremay? Aye. Scott Peterson? Aye. Leigh Ann Hutchinson? Aye. Steve Nelson? Aye.
And I vote aye as well. Motion carries five-zero-zero. Congratulations to Eric and George. It's been a long journey. And we took another big step forward tonight. Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you. Thank you, guys.
So again, the approval will be run-in the newspaper. I think we'll try and get that in next week and there's a two week period after that that we can wait for an appeal before we actually start doing anything. But I think it'll probably be two weeks at this point before you get going there. So I'm hoping that not delay you any more than we need to. Thank you. That wraps up that. The next item on the old business is discussion, possible action, planning and zoning application 20 One-four, 128 Wheeling Road. Applicant is seeking a site plan approval for accessory apartment in accordance with section 4.11 of the Andover zoning regulations. And I think the applicant is with us tonight. I saw him. I am present.
Okay, Adam. The as you recall, the item I struggled with last time was regulations. Send us to, know, the first thing in there is just talking about requirements of Section 11.2 space requirements are satisfied. And as I go to Section 11.2, it talks about the minimum lot size of 60,000 square feet. And if I'm not mistaken, your lot is short of that amount. Is that correct? Yeah, you spoke last time, that is correct. Yeah, your lot is about 50,000. 50,000, correct.
I guess I tried to look at this from the perspective of, is it an administrative oversight in that when we changed Andover lot size used to be 40,000 square feet and 80,000 square feet. When we went to the Andover rural development, we made the lot requirements 60,000 square feet. Did we not catch all the little pieces of that and have an unintended consequence where we made the lot smaller than our regulation? We precluded a normal sized lot in the past from being able to put on the accessory apartment. Certainly that would be an item for the Commission to determine and vote on. I think however the requirement got in there, again, for the Planning and Zoning Commission, we can make almost whatever rules we want. But once the rules are the rules, whether we like them or not, is no longer applicable, we have to abide by them. And so my thought is that as of today,
you don't meet the size requirement. And there's probably two options there. One we talked last meeting about the potential to go to the zoning board of appeals and I can't say how that would go there to present why you've got a hardship there. I can tell you when we did last modify the accessory apartment regulations, we were concerned about small lots and putting accessory apartments on them. And that's why in the Lake Regs we specify the minimum lot size in the Lake District with all the small lots there is 120,000 square feet. Other thing that comes into play, and I don't know what your time frame for needing to do the accessory apartment is, But the state of Connecticut recently passed a lot of legislative changes and I don't understand all of those changes yet, but there are some significant changes with respect to accessory apartments. Apartments.
And I think it's going to make accessory apartments easier to put in, almost where it could be a matter of right where you don't need to go to Planning and Zoning Commission. Planning and Zoning Commission has an opportunity to opt out of that, but we haven't discussed at all what the thoughts of the different members are on that and I don't want to do that tonight. We'll be doing that in the not too distant future as we go through the creation of an affordable housing plan for Andover where accessory apartments are a big part of that plan. So anyhow, for tonight we can choose to, you can choose to withdraw your application at this point or we can vote on the application. And my suspicion is it might not pass because of that, but we owe you that for putting in an application. And so I'm looking for your thoughts on how you would like the Commission to Okay,
I I don't want to withdraw it. If we choose to vote on it and it doesn't pass, can I take it to Zoning Board of Appeals or does it just completely get shut down? I guess is my question.
Jim, correct me if I'm wrong, but if it does not get approved here, you can take it to the zoning board of appeals.
So that's not Actually, is nothing in the legislation that precludes you from another special permit application immediately. There is language to that effect for a variance. A variance does not have to The ZBA does not have to listen to a variance or entertain a variance that's not substantially different for six months. No such regulation in the planning and zoning in the planning regulation in the zoning regulations. Can I just touch just mention, you know, I did look at the regulate at the minutes for when the changes to the when the ARD was established and also when the accessory apartment regulation was changed? Well, no, it was changed just for detached. And there was no discussion. I saw nothing in the minutes that led me to believe that anybody thought about it. I did not initially bring it to the applicant's attention because I didn't think of it.
Part of the reason is if somebody comes in for a building permit, for instance, and they have an existing lot, I don't look at the lot size. That lot was created under previous regulations or what have you. Having said that, it does read, I mean, regulations do read to cover lot size. Go ahead. Okay.
Okay, if I understand that correctly, if it does get denied, they don't have to The Zoning Board of Appeals does not have to meet with me for six months. Is that correct? No,
not at all. I probably shouldn't have gotten into that. If no, ZABA would hear your application immediately. Just, they have the right not to listen to it to a reapplication for six months, but you haven't applied to them as yet. Okay, yep. Probably shouldn't have got into that. No, it's okay. To clarify. I have one quick question. Go ahead, Kevin.
So are the garage and the accessory apartment considered two separate line items on the application? Yeah.
So the garage is considered to be part of the accessory apartment. At this note, this was more for just clarification on my end. Just was looking at it The
application doesn't really differentiate, but but as far as the the accessory department would be defined by the the finished space. The square footage that I would requirements would apply to the finished space, the living space, the habitable space.
Because the When I was looking at the rags and maybe I'm wrong, but accessory department was calling out gross area. And the gross area was anything that was. I don't know they had a there was a thing in there that said, if it was more than half of the structure was showing above grade, then that was considered in gross area. So I was just curious, just for reference, if the garage is just someone putting an addition on their house and the accessory apartment is another thing, or if the entire unit that's being added on is the accessory apartment?
Well, it's not clear, Kevin. I think that the accessory apartment is the accessory apartment and the garage, at least what we did on a previous application, is we allowed the garage space to contribute to the gross square footage. And in fact, on the last one, the applicant needed, I think, the gross square footage of garage to give him enough so that he could go to the maximum 800 square foot being the right percentage of that. So it is kind of interesting that the applicant, I think, could put up a three car garage without coming to us, but the accessory apartment on top of it at this point we're
Right, because the room on top is at the maximum area and then when you include the garage on the bottom, you way exceed the 33% allotment for additional capacity over the gross square footage of the house that already exists.
Yes, I did not consider the garage square footage to be part of the accessory accessory apartment.
Okay, that was what I was wondering. You could be wrong on that. Yeah, was just wondering for clarification.
Question. Yeah, I assumed that it wasn't part of the equation, but I could be mistaken.
So I have a question then. Can somebody who's. Go ahead. But he wants to build a garage. All they need is to have their plans to get a building permit. They don't need to be approved by us or P and Z. I mean the VBA.
Is that correct? As long as they meet the setback requirements, you know, for the lot and in all those other things. Yes. Okay.
Yeah, that's basically what I was wondering too. Thanks, Ann. Yep.
It is. So if he puts in a garage, he can put in a garage. If he wants the accessory upstairs in the garage, he needs to a permit for that from us. Any other questions? And that's all good discussion. You never get into the sticky points of an application until you're right on the verge of whether or not you meet the requirements. When you exceed the requirements by a lot, the discussion's always very easy. So at this point, I would does somebody want to make a motion to approve the application? And the reason I say approve as opposed to a motion to disapprove, again if we make a motion to disapprove an application and the motion fails, I don't know where that puts us. So we always go to the positive, make a motion to approve it, and then if it's denied, we know where we stand.
I move that we approve the, the application for an accessory apartment at 128 Wheeling Road.
Thank you. Is there a second? I'll second then. Thank you, Scott. Any further discussion on the application? Hearing none, I'll call for a vote. Anne? I'd like to say aye. Scott? No. Leanne? No. Steve? Sorry, I was on mute. No.
And I vote no as well. The application is denied by a vote of four-one-zero. And to Adam, when you go to the zoning board of appeals, I recommend you include the discussion about the fact you can build the garage and maybe they would be sympathetic to why can't you put the accessory department up there. If they don't agree, come back in less than a year we should have the matter resolved and I think we will be more lenient. Certainly my vote against has got nothing to do with the project you want to do. It's not an to meet our regulations as they are currently written. And I like what you're trying to do.
Okay. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you. Who would I follow-up with about the joining board of appeals? I know there's an application online. I've already printed out. But I would send that into just the town hall with the tech as well.
You should discuss that with agent Halsey who, you know, the ZBA, you know, he is the agent for the ZBA as well. So in this case we've made that easy for you. Thank you. Okay, I'm going to move on to old business 5C. Request of Christopher Bell, agent for William Joe Genovese applicant seeking an extension of existing special permit to operate sand gravel pit at 517 Route 6. That's section 16 of the Andover Zoning Regulations. We've had the I guess the real reason that I added this to the agenda tonight because we did in fact authorize the approval at the last meeting, there was a question as to whether or not there was a cease and desist from planning and zoning. There was a cease and desist letter issued. It went to the property owner, not the owner's engineer. That's why Chris Bell, as of the last meeting, did not seen that. Also, Jim was our agent was not at the last meeting and I wanted to, know, he's been a little bit tied up and I know we have not issued the notice of approval in a timely manner to get that done and so with those couple of loose ends, I wanted to put this on the agenda again for discussion tonight so that we could get an update from agent Halsey on where we actually stand on that and make sure that all our questions
All right. Yes, the cease and desist was sent to Bill Genovese, who is the applicant of record. I sent it to him at the address, his business address, because that was the address on the application. Whether he received it or not, don't know. But my plan was to have them file a special permit for the original approval is filed on the land records. So I was having them file an extension in a similar fashion, along with just a letter saying that the peace and desist is hereby lifted. And when they file that document, it's a one page document in the land records
that would effectively negate the cease and desist. As far as I'm concerned, that's the appropriate approach. On the second matter, I know that there was an issue about the detention pond. Applicant wanted to to grade that over, I believe. And I did get written correspondence from the town engineer Brandon Hanfield. I saw it today and I sent it for posting late or early this evening. It will get posted when when Amanda who who does her postings is in the office next ensuing And he was in concurrence that he thought it would be a good idea. There was no need to retain that pond for as far as protection of the site, and that it would be said would be in a better situation for development and marketing without that pond.
Am I still on? Yes. Thank you.
I think everybody's just trying to take in all this because this is late breaking news.
If I may, Mr. Chairman? Go ahead. Yep. My name is Chris Bell, a professional engineer representing the applicant. Just to back up a couple of steps. As you recall, you gave me four items, bullet items to take care of by the next meeting. Number one is to report every week to Jim House. You give him a written report of an update of the gravel pit of any outstanding items and any new items that may have arose, which I have done every week. We had to get the grass that's on the very top of the mound that we couldn't see from below, but you can see from a much higher elevation. That finally got done. We were really delayed by the amount of rain that we had because after it rain, we had to wait till it dried out so we wouldn't get the truck wouldn't get stuck in there. But it finally got done just over a week ago, I guess, about two weeks ago. We did get blocks to block the turtle nesting area. There were some on-site which they put up about a week after the last meeting.
And there are additional blocks that we had ordered, which aren't really necessary to block anymore. Mean, the two blocks do a pretty good job. You can't really drive through that area. But we're gonna put a couple additional blocks up there. And also, we have some that are gonna be used for the front driveway once the gravel pit closes, we're gonna block off that driveway. So that's why we we have quite a few on-site. The last item was the item regarding the detention pond. Member Scott Persons asked us to to look into the matter. This was a suggestion by John Valenti a couple years ago to leave it there, which I wasn't for or against at the time. But
as we thought about it, we think it should be filled for a number of reasons. First of all, it's gonna be a a liability for the owner. He's gonna have to grade it, seat it, most likely put a fence around it. I would suggest putting a fence around it. And, and it's not the most ideal place for a a detention pond, and it's a little bit oversized for what, a site might be using. This afternoon, the town engineer, Brandon,
sent a letter. I don't know if everyone's read the letter or not. I think they have not. That was the letter that you talked about
previously. Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I can put that up on the screen. With permission, can share my screen if you want to read it. Okay. Yep. Go ahead, Chris.
I think it's going to try to take up too much of the space here. Hold on. I'm told that it's on. Did everybody see Yep.
Did you see it? Yes. Okay. We'll give everybody a couple minutes to read through it there. Okay. I think everybody's had a chance to take a look at that. And again, I apologize for not getting that posted so that everybody could see it before we came to meeting tonight. But as I see it, the Commission tonight can our job tonight is to consider whether or not we should modify the existing restoration plan to remove the requirement to maintain the detention basin based on the recommendation of the applicant's engineer and our engineer. Is that going to be a motion, Jed? That
will be a motion. Now that I've explained what it is that we're trying to do, I am going to ask somebody to make a motion to do just that. Could I add a note, Mr. Chairman? A comment? Yes.
With your permission. I can, we can have this inclusive as part of the as built because we have to do an as built for the project as part of the final restoration. When the restoration is done, we have to do a grading plan to show that we're at grade. And I mean, can just have this as an order to close the tension pond. And I guess what I would need to ask is normally we would take everything out, the pipe and everything else. We wouldn't wanna leave that there, But we would put it back, know, have the whole grading plan done like that. I mean, don't wanna have to go back and forth with the commission with this. I mean, would you agree we should take everything out and basically, you know, the whole site is going be silk fenced and it'll be up to someone else's job to design the site plan and detention basin. You know, it's not going to have an increase in runoff because of all the grass. I mean, this was, you know, really bare ground like a meadow before. It's
No, I understand. And my goal tonight was to just get the motion into our minutes and then between agent Halsey and our engineer and you, you can work through the details of does the pipe stay or go. But we will authorize changing the plan To remove it.
Remove the detention basin as part of the restoration. Okay. So that, you know, I was I think all of us were unhappy when we found out how much of the original plan we weren't doing. And so I would like to have it clear what we're changing in the plan so that when you do your final wrap up report, there's justification for all that we've got there. Okay. Thank you.
So I think we had Scott made a motion. And I don't know that we had a second to the motion. I'll second it. Okay.
Thank you, Anne. Any discussion by the Commission on the motion?
Yes, this is Leanne. I have two or three questions. Go ahead. So this motion is strictly about the detention basin? Yes.
Okay, so have the to be clear because as you said we did get some items some information just tonight. Have the other three items from last month's minutes been fulfilled and has the zoning agent seen them?
That was yes. The answer to the question is yes. And that was the discussion that Chris Bell had just a minute ago where he talked about the letter that he sent to Jim dated July 16. And I think that one is posted online. But it only got posted today. So if you missed it, that's understandable. But it says the special seed for the turtle area is still on order. Concrete blocks were installed to protect the turtle nest area. Bear area on top of the back hill was hydro seeded last Saturday. There was no removal of material this week and he sent all the information to Brandon, which we did look at the letter that Brandon sent back in response to that recommending removal of the detention base. So the other items that we had talked about at the last meeting have all been addressed.
Okay. And that includes the item that says submit weekly reports to the zoning agent on the status of the project?
Yes. That was not addressed specifically in the letter, Chris Bell did say that he had been reporting to
agent Halsey on a weekly basis. And to the best of my knowledge, posted each of those
reports. Okay, I didn't see them. I didn't know there was anything in addition to what we were sent as, Travelers. But if you're stipulating that it's there, then okay. And my other question is, I guess I'm a little confused about the cease and desist part. If mister Genovese was sent a cease and desist letter to the address on file, but I as I understand it, mister Bell said tonight that and and last month that he didn't know about it, and I think the chairman also was a little up in the air about whether or it had been issued in the first place. Is that right, Jed?
That is correct. I knew I had seen the letter that Jim wrote because he had it vetted through Mark Branch, our attorney. So I knew the letter existed. Who specifically it got mailed to was the part that I was unclear of. Jim's unavailability leading up to the last meeting didn't give me a chance to chase that down. I don't believe I posted that
letter until such time as it was brought to my attention that there was some confusion.
Do we not send things by certified mail or registered mail or something that requires a signature for something like this? We do.
Yeah, I know we didn't get anything bad. Did you send a cease and desist by certified mail? Yes, definitely.
This And was so nothing was received back by the town? I don't believe so, no.
The applicant recalls, and I recall the cease and desist from wetlands, and that's the one we were really concentrating on to get done right away. I never saw the cease and desist for planning and zoning, but as we worked through the wetlands one, by the time that was done, well, we were okay with the items, I guess, on the cease and desist for the planning and zoning. But the applicant doesn't recall seeing that either. But he did get the one from Wetlands, so I saw also.
So I'm gonna assume that the address on file that we had is the same that the Wetlands Commission had. I wouldn't assume that at all. I don't know. You wouldn't assume that? No.
I know that the Wetlands agent had an issue with a document that went to Mr. Genovese in the past. What kind of issue? Quite honestly, if somebody doesn't pick up a certified letter, it's not really my concern. That's what I've been told to I mean, quite frankly, I didn't care because I was working with the applicant and his engineer to address the problem, the issues that were were cited. So it was I assumed he had gotten it, but I don't know.
I'll tell you something from being up in his business in New Britain. He gets a lot of certified letters every day, and it doesn't surprise me if this just went past his desk and, you know, maybe he never saw it. Right? He did see the wetlands one because we're you know, we all talked about it. But if you didn't get a receipt back, then he didn't get it. Or he didn't.
If you didn't get a receipt back, then he can get it. Is that you
know? No, that doesn't mean anything that well, yes, it means it doesn't mean that a lot of people choose not to pick up their certified mail. Right. They didn't sign. He didn't sign for it. They didn't get a receipt that. Right. I don't know where it went. That
will go right back to you immediately. It doesn't, from what I remember, when someone doesn't sign a certified letter, it goes right back to the person that sent it with a note saying, guess what, they didn't sign it or they didn't accept it. Right. It doesn't hang around anymore, it doesn't get lost. Hopefully not. It goes back to whoever sent it. Right.
This is Leanne again. I'm sorry, somebody else still finishing? Nope. Come in Leanne.
I I don't as long as the other conditions the other three conditions from last month's minutes are okay and the you know the zoning agent wasn't available last month. The people are in agreement about the detention basin tonight but I would like for the record to say I don't think it should be our problem if somebody doesn't either open their certified mail, send it back, whatever you're supposed to do, because that's the whole point of certified mail. And a cease and desist is a big deal. And I just would like to say for the record that I don't think it should be our problem that we didn't get it back and I think I'm going to respectfully disagree with Jim that it should have been looked out for if that's the term on the town's end whether it was him or I'm not sure what the arrangement is right now. We used to have a full time administrative assistant. We know we don't have one anymore in the building department and that's been in flux with cross training, but I just think it's important to note that
nobody else would happen to it. Leah, I'm in agreement. It's once we send it out, it's a done deal.
Are you saying that we have a record of it? It's we do have a defense if that's the right word if we don't get anything back? Yeah. So we do have a record of sending it and then yes. So you're saying that is if I understand what you're saying that's sufficient to show that the town did their part? Yes.
If if we had to move forward with with civil action, that would have sufficed in court. That's the that's the advice that I've gotten in the past from Mark Brantz.
Okay. Well, that's fine then. It it just sounds a little funny that it it you know, the explanation tonight, the way I heard it was that anybody can either ignore anything on purpose or if they genuinely don't get it, but the fact remains that the town never heard back. But if you're saying that as long as we can document what we did, then that holds up, then I guess that's satisfactory to me. Yeah. It's possible that that something came back indicating
that he didn't, you know, that it wasn't picked up. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I I do know that I have a record of mailing it. That's all. That's all I can say. If we have a record of Okay. Well, thank you for that. Keep a receipt, and that's got the tracking number, you should be able to look it up. Yes, we have it.
Thank you. Yep, and I will I share Leanne's concern that it is a big deal. I guess the matter in mitigation in this particular case was Jim and I both knew that all work at the gravel pit was stopped. And so it appeared to us like the letter had been received. We'll do a better job of tracking that stuff going forward a little bit because it was our goal to get it stopped and it did get stopped. But we ought to if it hadn't, and we hadn't been tracking that, if it hadn't stopped and then we were talking about it a month later, that would have not been a good situation. So I guess that's the only blemish I see on what I thought was a very successful remediation and renewal of the gravel pit application.
Quite frankly, I had numerous, I had a lot of conversations with Chris Bell on the matter and met him and other parties on-site, you know, and I wasn't concerned about the issues were being taken care of. I wasn't overly concerned about whether somebody received the cease and desist.
But we should because at some point in time, the cease and desist won't have ceased. And then we'll be trying to figure out why that and something untoward could happen then. So we'll look at that a little bit. We certainly did our part from the town, but it would be nice to know that the guy got the letter that we took such pains to send to him with tracking system on it. Okay, well that's all I got. All that I'd like, yeah, I think we've covered enough the ability to mail at this point. We'll do better.
Jim, what stage that, what stage will the detention pond leave? It's towards the end of the project.
Was that written anywhere? When when are they gonna fill it, pull the pipe and all that? Well, would be part of the final phase, I believe.
I mean, saying that based on memory, I don't have a plan in front of me. Don't I can't square that case, but that
would certainly make sense to me. Chris, do you have when do you think?
My understanding was the tension pod is going to be there until we final grade the site and have enough material to fill it and have grass growing and then we basically, that's the last thing we do is fill the pond topsoil seed that and that's it. That's not the last thing we do Presenting tincture pond should stay there until
we're really done with the grading operation. That's going to be the last thing before you drive out of there. That's correct. Yeah, sorry. Missed that
one through. I mean, it's on the plan. It's shown to stay there. Now we're now we're discussing eliminating.
I mean, this is why we put it where we put it, because we wanted to be close by to the end of the operation. We went back and forth where we were gonna start the project initially. We were gonna start in the front, but it works best for the pond to be there if you start in the front. It works best if the pond is there if you start in the middle. And that's why we started in the middle. So we said, we'll just leave it there, put a channel to it, and that'll be the last place for us to be as far as braiding goes.
Another question I have is I recall that they were supposed to put stones around the turtle area.
Oh, we had a discussion the next day. Yeah, you're correct. We talked about large stones. And I called Jim the next day when I told the owner, he had to put large stones, he said. Very bluntly, he goes, I don't really have any of those. I don't like large stones. Have some concrete blocks, wouldn't that be better? I said, well, they're bigger than what we needed. And I asked him about that and I asked the town engineer and they both didn't seem to have any objection to that. They can definitely be a lot easier moved with a forklift than the rocks could. So I was, I didn't get any opposition with that, I didn't want to have to wait to come back to the Commission to ask them again and miss the date of being, having not done for two weeks, so we we put those concrete blocks up right away. I I hope that the Commission wasn't dead set on having large stones. But again, it is your choice. I hope that you have on that, Scott?
Excuse me. Did you have a concern about the concrete blocks versus stones?
I think that the turtles are probably like the stones better to be honest with you.
They're a bigger than the turtles. Don't know if they
Yeah, it could be imposing to the turtles. I don't know. I would say I'm suggesting It
always comes down to what the commission says and then when we get to the field people change things.
Well, suggest you put less blocks up and put, you know, tree, you know, like a white oak log across it, it would look nice and he didn't like that either. So this is what I, this is what we got. But it's up to the commission.
Well, do we have something that says stones are required or you know I thought that came up as a comment during Yeah, Chris Bell said that he was gonna get them off his property. Yeah, that didn't happen either.
Well, we were gonna get the concrete blocks off the property? No, stones. Stones. Stones.
Also the the detention basin originally was supposed to be moved at every stage of the project.
That wasn't actually part of the conditions, that was a suggestion. That
was, yeah, that was, I recall that. Yeah, I do recall that, but I There's
a lot of things that have changed, but I don't have any problem. If everybody else is all right with the concrete blocks, I'm all right with them. If I had my druthers, I would put stones in.
Okay. I would tend to agree with that, but I was outvoted.
Well, on Agent Halsey and our engineer thinking that that was okay, I think that that should be okay. And if you want that in the motion, we can put that in the motion. But I know the item that we were supposed to be coming back to discuss was in fact the detention basin and that's where I'm at. So I think we have a motion on the floor to delete the requirement to maintain the detention basin as part of the restoration plan. And I think we had a second to that motion. Is that correct, Mindy?
Yes, I had a second. We just didn't vote on it. Okay, so now we've
had any other discussion on that before we vote? Hearing none, I'll call for a vote. Anne? Aye. Scott? Aye. Leanne? Aye.
Steve? Aye. I vote aye as well. The motion passes five zero zero.
Okay, thank you. And I assume Mr. Chairman that you'll still be looking for a report every week from me? That's correct.
Unless agent Halsey comes to us and says, nope, I'm tired of getting that all those emails once a month. I like having the report before the meeting and update. Jim, you have any flavor for whether you think weekly or monthly is better for you?
Weekly, I like weekly. Okay. I I don't think it's a tremendous amount of work for Let's stick with weekly. Well,
if nothing's going on, there's not a lot of work to do. Will try to get it on a Thursday morning so that you can get it posted. I waited a lot of times till Friday because I was waiting to get something from somebody and you know, when I don't get it, gotta put the letter out anyway. And I was hoping to get something done. I'll make I'll try to make sure it's done at least about every Thursday. Again, nothing's been happening there. The owner says, you you're going to get everything done before you start moving stuff again. So now that we've got everything resolved, they're ready to go again.
Okay, well, correct me if I'm wrong, Jim, but we need to wait two weeks following do we need to wait two weeks following the issuance of the letter in the newspaper to allow anybody to complain. I don't know what the technicality is there. But in this case, since it's a renewal versus you know, approval of an application, do we need to wait two weeks at this point or is the applicant good to go?
I don't see any reason to hold them up. Okay. It's valid, still revoke as far as I'm concerned.
And Chris, I think based on that and the fact that this is a permit renewal, I agree that you're good to go and start moving material from the gravel bit again. I think all of us want to see it wrapped up sooner rather than later. Absolutely.
I'll be watching a closer eye on this and as soon as we get to the point when we're, you know, an area has agreed to, you know, less than two phases, you know, like a phase and a half, which is only going to be another, maybe once he takes that big mound that's out there and some of the bank, it's not going to be too long until we have to do another, know, bring the restoration up to the next point again, you know, go up another 100 feet. We'll be watching them. Okay. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, Chris. Next
item on the agenda is discussion possible action previously approved special permit for previously approved kennel at 241 Route 6. And we talked about this a little bit last time. I went out and did some more research as did Jim following that. And while it is clear to me that the permit was approved by the Commission and we have the permit, the underlying documentation that should have gone in like a site plan to support the application so that we here know what would be approved is missing. We have not been able to find that. So I don't know, I know the special permit was approved, but I don't know what they approved. And so on trying to figure out the way ahead getting with Agent Halsey today there's, I think we use the term permit modification. Yes. And based on the fact that there have been no complaints about the kennel operation having gone on in the past numerous years that it has been in existence. You know, there's words in our regulations that would allow us to if we've already gone and held a public hearing and this this permit is going to be very similar to what was approved in the past. We don't have to do that again and we can just process a modified application so that we can discuss what it is that the applicant is really doing, where he's doing, and then we can compare that to our regulations and make sure that it meets what the regulations require. Is that acceptable to you, Mr. Beebe?
Yep. Yeah, I talked with Jim today. He said he would help me get that together for you guys. Yep. So yeah. And I
know the original plan and everything like that. I mean, I don't have it with me, but the main thing, and I may be able to find it, was originally it was a huge commercial kennel. And right now it's just fencing in a field and use of some of the existing, like a heifer barn that was on the farm previously. So I never went and built the elaborate building and kennel runs and all that. So that's what the original plan is. Right now, and Jim's been there and some other people know about it. I mean, you can Google Earth
It's it's just fencing in a field off of a heifer barn and some kennels that you would buy a tractor supply to house the dogs during the day. And then I have a have a bus that holds 17 crates that we go on field trips and things like that. And I just want the board to know like this all came about because I bought my partner out and the state wants to inspect the facility, I already had them come in and inspect it so I would know when I pass what I have to do and I don't have to do anything. But the funny part in all this matter is if I park my bus at the commuter lot and load my clients, I'm not breaking any laws. But if I'm at the farm and I have it there, they want me to have all these Where actually it's safer for everybody on a 200 acre farm. It's kind of nonsense. And
so one of the things I asked you last time, why is it that if you've got a training facility where we're asking to put a kennel in and for everybody else, this is section 19 of our
So hold on, hold on. You asked if I was putting in a kennel and the answer right now is no. Down the road someday maybe. The landowner is Serenity Post. She said if I ever want to put in a kennel but right now I'm not looking, I'm at the end of my career. You know, I'm 50 years old. I'm looking for ten more years to train dogs in a field and on my merry way of retirement. I'm not looking to build any facility. It's all existing buildings on the property.
And as long as those indoor housing facilities comply with state regulations for commercial
And that's what this is all about for Jim to sign a paper for the state of Connecticut to go there and say whether or not I'm meeting regulations.
Okay, so you're saying that you do meet that requirement?
Yes, because I had them. So listen, I'm also the town of Andover ACO. So I've been dealing with the state of Connecticut in some form or another in the ag business for the last twenty five years. So I have a good relationship with them. So I already asked them to come and inspect me so that when I got this paper signed, if there was a problem, could already have it addressed, right? The only real glitch in that whole thing is the boarding and that's because of the dogs coming during the day and staying more than five hours. That in the state classifies me as a boarding facility, even though I'm not a boarding facility. They had nowhere to put it in their licensing years ago. So that's where it falls. Okay,
I just don't want to approve a permit and then the state comes back and says what a bunch of yo yos you guys are. No, no, no. Jimmy: So if you put in an application then, other question I have for you is I saw that on the little outline map that we have posted, you have to be very close if not within the flood prone district.
So I don't know where that is. I talked to Jim, but I seriously doubt I'm within the flood zone District because He's not in the. Yeah, Scott knows the property better than I do. Okay. And I mean, I'm next to the cemetery, so you allowed him to bury people there. So I doubt him in a flood zone.
Okay, good enough. I went to our zoning map that has the flood Prone District on it. And I see that it's over there by Pine Ridge Drive.
Oh, I'm not over there. Well, map I mean, I know it's there, but I mean, Scott can tell you. Okay. He owns that land better than anybody. Yep, I'm there. That's why we're talking about it tonight.
Because when I looked at the map you provided, it looked like it was drawn within the flood Prone District. Okay. And regulations say you can't do that. Right. That doesn't mean that you say you've got 200 acres over there you're using for a kennel, that maybe a small portion of that in the flood prone district, I don't really care. But the majority of your kennel area shouldn't be where it's going to flood.
Right, and what I'm telling you is I don't have a kennel area, right? I use the Heifer Barn that's been there. It's just a concrete slab. And then there's just like you would buy a tractor supply sitting on the ground on P stone. I'm not building any buildings I guess is what I'm saying. The only thing I'm using is where you've already approved these buildings before where there were 60 cows at one time. Scott, can you explain better than I can? I mean, you know the land.
I would like to just know what Jed wants and the Commission needs to know before they okay it. Just know it's not in the flood zone, Jed. Okay,
and that's good to know. The map that we provide on where the kennel is operating ought to reflect that. What can tell you that I did was I looked through our regulations on kennels and tried to answer the question, are we in compliance with those? And I could not do that. Exactly. None of the other commission members can either. It's every
different type of panel or the usages, everyone goes back to camping in the flood prone district. The elevation jet is at the same elevation as house that's down there. Okay,
yep. But it would be nice if the application addressed what the requirements are and we can make a decision based on our regulations.
It should say something about what type are we going to have here too.
It's presently a type C, which is a commercial kennel. Commercial kennel, yeah. Yeah. I wasn't here when you got the original, We went through the process initially, but I mean, don't have any problem handling training grooming showing. To certainly fall under this the definition of kennel here. Don't. Right. The fact that they may not spend the night there is not a particular concern to me. Seems like the right approach. I mean, the way it was handled initially and modification could just address what's what is there now. And with with the approval of the commission, and I'd be happy to transpose that flood zone. Mean, I did, you know, when I met with Scott out there, we did discuss the flood zone. I didn't have the flood zone. I didn't have the map and hit my hand but we got a big idea as to where it was. It's it seems to be a distance from from any any activity that's that's going on there.
Okay. So the request for the commission at this point, I think is to have a motion that asks the applicant to provide a modified application for our approval. Okay, so
Again, you're much more familiar with this stuff than I am, but I read words that Thanks. No kennel will be so located or allowed to fall into such state of repairs to constitute NYSOR either to the adjacent property owners or to the general public. Right.
So my whole thing here is I don't have a building. Right? So as much as they want me to be under the commercial kennel, it's because the dogs stay for more than four hours.
Well, and does that mean that you have to make it so the dogs don't stay more than four hours so that you could be in compliance with the regulations?
No, it's not that I'm not in compliance with any regulations. The point is, I don't have a building. Right? So what the state is saying is, all I need is the town to sign that one piece of paper that says, I have approval, Praying dogs there, and they can be there. And then they take all the regulations that apply from the Department of Agriculture, no different than the dog pound or any other farm, And then they come in and inspect. Like the inspections do for the town pound, she'd go from there three driveways up and then inspect my place. That's like a commercial kitchen in a restaurant. And so, I mean, I would agree. I agree that if it's an eyesore, I have to keep it up.
I don't see anything here yet. I mean highest classification it's 10 acres you have to have over 10 acres. He's on 200 probably a thousand maybe not a thousand feet but he's you know 700 feet from the closest home. And it's at the elevation of the home that's down there that Scott's mother lives in so. Okay.
I know that this is an area that is probably not black and white. Our job is to receive an application from an applicant that shows how they meet the regulations and then we vote on whether or not it meets regulations. Don't have any of that. Have meeting minutes that say a previous special permit was approved. We don't know what was approved. We don't know what the conditions of approval were. And so I'm looking for that information so we can make an assessment. Does that make sense?
We need a motion to provide a modified application to the zoning agent for approval. This is Leanne. I think that's reasonable.
You. Leanne, you were there for all of Leanne was there through all of it. Leanne, like she was there the whole time.
I know Susan England was as well, but she's not here tonight. But that's what I'm looking for is to tell the story of what we actually have. We asked to build a kennel that we didn't build. I'm told it's in a different spot from what was approved. And I can't find anything that talks about what was actually approved. And so I need a little bit more so the commission can vote on it in good conscience.
Are we doing what makes sense? Now that was the motion that I just gave you, Ted. Okay. Read it again, Scott Lee. Motion to provide modified application to the zoning agent for approval.
And would that be are you suggesting that it doesn't need to come back to planning and zoning?
As long as it fits with the regulations, as long as it fits with the regulation. I think Who would it go to?
If it's going to be a class Charlie Kennel, it's got to come back to the commission. Commercial class? Yes.
For approval, then we'll change it to for approval by planning and zoning. Okay. So motion to provide a modified application to the zoning agent for approval by planning and zoning. Is there a second to that motion? I'll second. This is Leanne. Thank you, Leanne. Any other discussion?
And that's what you're looking for is something on paper that said that he fulfills all the regulation requirements. Yes. And some good maps showing that it's out of the flood zone. How far it is from adjacent neighbors?
It talks about a fence in there. It'd be nice It's if you have to show the going to be fenced in. Perfect. Okay any other discussion?
So just to this is Leanne just to be clear Mr. Beebe isn't saying that he's going to establish a kennel now. He wants and needs from the state something from the town that approves what he's doing now. Is that in a nutshell? I know we talked about flood zone and neighbors and things like that. That's right. I know in a nutshell isn't a technical term, but
That's my interest. He's not building a structure, but he's operating a kennel. He's operating the training facility, which falls under commercial kennel.
And is that because of the number of hours right there that the dogs are on the premises? Yes, that's a state regulation that. Okay, I'm dealing with my thought of local regulation.
I mean, all all I'm trying to do is to get the applicant to come up with a I mean, the idea is to come up with a plan showing what's there now or poses to do treat it as a modification to the existing permit that was approved. That was never Okay. That sounds
if we get something, as Jed said, if we get something just like that, it sounds like it would be helpful to us and the applicant to show what's going on. Yeah. Applicant also.
Any other discussion? Hearing none, call for a vote. Anne? Aye.
Scott? Aye. Leanne? Aye. Steve? Aye. I vote aye as well. Motion passes five zero zero. Moving on. Affordable housing plan and recent legislation. So Mindy, if you can allow me to share my screen, I will go through what I've got on that tonight. Should be able to. Yep. Thank you.
Okay. So not a smooth PowerPoint. Oh, this fireworks are going off. Must be time to close the meeting. Me go shut my door and maybe it'll keep some of that noise out of here. Is the location of the presentation such that anybody can see it well? For me, I've got all the pictures over on the right hand side and it's blocking out the edge of the presentation. How about that? Okay. We'll try that. So anyhow, last at meeting we talked about the fact that we submitted a request to the state for a grant to do our affordable housing plan. And that is it. Since then, and we have not heard back whether or not grant approved or not, I assume that it will be. But we have put out a request for, I put RFP request for proposal, request for quote, whatever, request for bid for the different planners around the state to come in that want to help us build our affordable housing plan. And we issued that on July 15. And so just on the big scheme of things, what we're looking at on this, want the bids are due back to Eric on the September 1. We're going to look to award the contract on the October 1, hold an initial public hearing in November on development
of the plan, Work on the plan over the course of the winter. In April, hold the public hearing on the proposed plan so in May we can approve it and submit it to the state. So that's a big picture on affordable housing plan, what we've got there. In the information for this is what I sent out to everybody a link. Steve, I don't recall whether or not I sent it to you, but there was a link from Halloran Sage that talked about all the legislative changes and lots of words in that. And I'm trying to figure out what the actions are so I can hold me to making sure that we get the actions done in time. So if I didn't send that to you, Steve, let me know and I'll try it again.
Yeah, I don't think I saw it, Jed, but I'll check my inbox again. Okay,
yep. And very well could be that I missed you on that. It was a while ago that that went out. One of the things that is in the legislation that changed a lot is on accessory apartments. And these changes for accessory apartments will be effective 01/01/2022. And it's a little confusing to me how it works, but we can, I guess in January 2022 is when they can be effective? If we choose as a commission to opt out of those requirements, we have to do that by 01/01/2023. I would have thought that we would have had to opt out before they went into effect,
but that's not what I see there. But on 01/01/2023, unless we opt out, any non compliant existing regs with respect to these updates become null and void, which essentially gives any property owner the right to build an accessory apartment on any authorized lot. We might not want that. We might not want that. Maybe out in the ARD we don't want that for a 40,000 square foot lot. In the lake zone, it requires 120,000.
Yep, and the lake zone requires 120,000 because we've got some lots in the lake zone that are maybe an eighth of an acre. I think I've seen 8,000 square feet for lot size. Certainly with the problems of septic design and all that stuff in the lake zone, we do want something different. So what I plan to do is when we get this smart planner guy to help us build the affordable housing plan, since accessory apartments are a key element of that, he can lead the discussion through a discussion on that and we can figure out what it is that we want to do. But I was not willing to commit to our applicant tonight to have that done in the very near future because there are a lot of changes coming on with respect to planning and zoning. I think we're going to struggle, I'm going to struggle to do this. Now if there's somebody out there on the Commission that wants to assist in developing proposed changes, that has legal backgrounds and that sort of thing, and I'm all in favor of any assistance that might come my way on any of that. But I think other
than that, you know, this can be part of what the planner is helping to guide us through. So that's going to be a big change. If we do nothing, everybody's got a chance to put in an accessory apartment. I think it authorizes, we limit it to 800 square feet. The new state regs would propose that we go up to 1,000 square feet for the accessory apartment. Jimmy: New requirement for Commission training. Jimmy: I got to be the chairman of the planning and zoning Commission without any training whatsoever and it did not feel good. And so I do think that
it's good that we all get to do some training and it's not an immediate problem for us but it says after January 20, 01/01/2023 each member shall get four hours of training by the next year. And we're going to do training every other year thereafter. So it's four hours every other year. I know that we have a hard time getting people to want to be on the commissions because everybody's overextended. But I think you would all find this beneficial. The people that have gone to the various trainings we've held, I think have all thought that it was very worthwhile. So that'll be coming and I encourage you all to do the training that's available to us starting as soon as the next one comes around. I've been to several and I thought they were all very worthwhile. And I need to report compliance annually to the Board of Selectmen on how we're doing on that. So that'll be a part of our deal. Then I put a slide in here on other stuff and a couple other things that you know as of the July 1 of this year, we are required to resume posting our decisions and our public hearings and all that in the local newspaper. Was eliminated as a requirement due to the pandemic. I think those rules have expired on the end of June. And so now we are encouraged to continue electronic posting,
but we need to go back to the posting in the River East as well. I like seeing those things in there. That's how I learn a lot about what's going on in the town. 04/01/2022, there's permanently updated regulations on outdoor dining. And again, as I looked through it, they were kind of confusing to me. Didn't know exactly what they said. Jim hasn't had the opportunity to look at those yet. But I think we've got all of one or two places. I know when we put the outdoor dining into effect, we had to consider Andover Pizza. I don't know how Tom's place down the road fits into the dining establishment regulations. But he's been doing outdoor dining for a long time and I don't know what permit, if any, we've got on that. So that's coming up in the near future. Planning and zoning, desired changes to our regulations, and I know we've talked about we currently don't have a frontage requirement for a standard lot. We've got width. I'm under the impression that that was purely an administrative oversight when we lost that and pretty easy to put back. So as we go through at some point a update to our regulations, we'll include that in there. The other thing that we had was, you know, it was somewhat a technicality, but the property owners over on Hendy Road, because of the wording in our regulations, able to go to the zoning board of appeals and get authorization permission to build a home in a flood prone district. I'm not sure that we thought that was the best idea in the world and
there's a couple of minor changes that we can make if we choose to that would strengthen that prohibition. And so I'll be looking at doing that. I started working on changes to our sign regs a while ago that got unwieldy. And so, you know, a bunch of stuff in there I don't think we're currently complying with. I don't know that we wanted to. I didn't necessarily want to make the regulations mirror everything that we're currently doing. But with a couple of elimination of two or three words, can make them at least constitutional in all respect, get rid of that unconstitutionality that political signs are any different than any other signs. So I'll do that. And those are the changes I added on this. I talked to Eric today about when should we be doing our 08/24 referral to build, allow the new community center saying it's consistent with our plan of conservation and development. So I put that on the list just to remember
to do. And that was all that's in there. Again, I encourage everybody to read that bulletin I sent out from Hallor and Sage on all this stuff. I've read through it a couple times now and some of it's actually starting to make sense. It certainly didn't on the first go through and I know that to a large part is going to be on me to bring some regulations to you all so we can discuss it and make things as appropriate.
One thing I, not to interrupt you Jeff, but one thing I did notice when I read that thing, they want to change the accessory apartments to two spots, one for each vehicle because they, anybody else would think the same thing but there usually two people, know, two spouses, whatever in an apartment. They want two spots for that accessory apartment. Okay, I hadn't picked up on that. Thanks Scott. Think Yep. Our regulation should have said that.
Yep, we say one extra. Right, yep. And again, when we did the accessory apartment, the thought process was there's an in law apartment for one person is at least what I had in mind, right, wrong or different, but we didn't limit it to that because we figured we couldn't because eventually that person would pass away and then what's the person supposed to do with the accessory apartment? So we eliminated that thought. But makes sense to have two parking spots for the accessory department. But as other folks say, you know, as you catch me saying, making commitments to thin air that I'll go off and do something, And you should say, so are you going to put it on that list that we're going to take a look at every now and then and make sure that we've done what we do? At some point very soon, the Board of Selectmen will ask for our annual report on what we've done and what our goals are for next year, how we did on the goals for last year. This can form the basis for doing that as well. So that's why I put this in here. Any questions on Any other questions or comments on that?
Jed, this is Leanne. I inadvertently got disconnected and had to call back in. Could you just tell me really quickly two or two and a half questions about the affordable housing plan. To make a long story short, is it if we don't do certain things on the town level, does whatever the state pass get imposed on us unless we show that we're doing something by ourselves?
That is certainly the case for accessory apartments. Affordable housing plan, we are required to have an affordable housing plan that reflects the desires of the citizens of hand how we want to meet affordable housing with a goal of 10% in the town. And we may not be the lowest percentage in the state for our town, but it's in the lowest two or three, if not the very bottom. So the thought process is we may never meet the 10% goal, but at least we have a plan that tries to get there. So it'll be tied to funding. If we don't have a plan we might not get all our funding.
And I said I was going to make it quick but I'll make a two part question. Is any of this covered by our plan of conservation development? Does that count toward it?
No. Our plan needs to be consistent with the plan of conservation and development. And if you look on the website, there is a piece that can be included in the plan of conservation and development, but it wasn't ready when we issued it last time. And and I forget the title, but is affordable housing study or something like that. And that is 90% of the solution. And so if we don't get our grant, I will probably change the name of that from affordable housing study to affordable housing plan and send it in. There's not a lot of requirements right this minute about what the plan has to have. We just have to have a plan. Now I'm sure that's going to change over the years where the state figures out more than what we want to put into it. But as of right now, we just have to have a plan and we currently don't. Don't have Did we have something ready but we didn't include it because it wasn't really ready? It was not ready at the time. I think that so our last plan of conservation and development was issued in 2015.
The date on this study is '16. And there's also, if you look online, there is a if you look under appointed committees, there's a long term study committee. 2019, I think it is, they issued a long term study plan. And it talks about affordable housing and all that stuff in there. So there's a lot out there. We need to take we know we don't have any affordable, we know we don't have much affordable housing, what are we doing to get there? And we've done several good things. We do have accessory apartment plan, which is a key. We have the mixed use floating rig thing that allows affordable housing. We made the open space cluster subdivision so we could have smaller lots. And we reduced the size of a house that is required to be built. So we as a town, primarily through Eric's work, did a lot of good stuff to get us that direction. We just don't have a plan saying what we want to do and how we're going to get there.
Okay, thank you everyone. Thank you and thanks everyone for reiterating it. And did we do F and G yet or did you skip those while I was having to dial in again?
Pardon? No, we're going to move on to that right I'm going to close it. It sounded
like maybe you were on new business when I called back in. So, okay. Thank you very much.
Is still affordable housing plan in recent legislation. Okay. And there's a lot of it. Sorry to take so much time on that. Return to life planning and zoning commission meetings. We were supposed to be meeting live in person this month. I was concerned a little bit because I wasn't able to discuss it with Jim between last meeting and this meeting that we go sit in the room and I could not use the computer that the town might provide to get things up on the new electronic screen in the community room and do even worse of a job than I do on presenting the stuff here. So I chickened out and we went back to holding online meeting. I guess the other thing that happened right after we decided to meet in person is Mindy unfortunately put in her resignation and said I live up in South Windsor, not good to drive down there. And I certainly agree with that. So we're meeting virtually tonight. Since then, I've thought a little bit about why I like these meetings. And while I live very close to town hall and it's easy for me to get there, I'm not sure that everybody does. And for instance, I know Kevin lives, you can't live too far away and still be in Andover but he's probably got the most inconvenient
drive to get here. And if we wanted to ask our engineer who lives in Lebanon to attend the meeting. It certainly makes it easier for him. Or Mark Branch. I don't know where Mark lives. But I know he doesn't live in Andover. And so for a lot of different reasons, I thought it was more convenient to people to hop on the Zoom meeting. My thoughts are that it's easier to present material in a Zoom meeting because I'm used to using my computer and I can put it up. You know, we saw Chris Bell tonight put up some stuff for us to review and it's sitting right in front of me where I can see it good. I'm not sure I can see it as well on that large screen that we've got in the community room. And I know the acoustics in that room aren't very good. And I can crank up my volume and not bother any of you and hear all that I want. So with that, I said there are some nice advantages to continuing on Zoom. But I'll bring it back to the Commission. I know Abby lives not too far away. I kind of like doing it in Zoom for the time being. I really don't know where this Delta variant of the coronavirus thing is headed. And this is pretty easy. If there's some big opposition, you know, opposition is I don't get a chance to
shoot the breeze with each of you folks and get to know you each, it is people. I've never been able to say hi to Mindy and here she is leaving already. I regret that. That's not a great thing. So that's the piece that we're downside on. And maybe we have, you know, when the weather's nice, an in person meeting, occasionally just to work on regs or something like that when we don't have other stuff going on. But I wanted to bring that back to the Commission for discussion. But if there was no big opposition, I would suggest that we continue using Zoom for at least
a little bit until I'm convinced. Let other people work the bugs out of displaying everything. I know the town's working on how to do a hybrid meeting, which I think is a good idea. I just don't know how to do it and I didn't want to jump off on that until we didn't have the bugs worked out. So if somebody really got a hard spot and wants to get together, I'll say we can do that but otherwise I kind of like doing it this way. Any thoughts?
I've said before that I prefer in person and I still do.
And that was a big part of why I wanted to try it because of your input and the fact other people were doing that. I don't know what I don't know how many other commissions are actually meeting in person or not yet. But anyhow, when I attended a Board of Education meeting, I liked the way they did it. I don't know that we over at Town Hall are geared up to do that yet. That was my decision on that. Leanne, what's your view? You're the one I can't ever see. I don't see your expression when you're frowning at me.
Well, I don't think I frown at you too often, if ever. But basically, I now have to drive around Bunker Hill Road to Coventry to go anywhere. So I don't mind doing that. But I could go either way. I'm fortunate that I don't have an underlying condition that makes me reluctant to go out to these kind of things and I'm fully vaccinated. On the other hand, the Delta variant is a concern and according to CNN, cases are going up all over the country, although they're mostly among unvaccinated people. So I'm fine with continuing to meet over Zoom. Okay.
And I think for at least, you know, for next month, I'm going to plan on meeting on Zoom. I recognize that there are some drawbacks to it, but there are some advantages to too. Filling of vacancies. The good news is that the vacancies are filled. We've got a full commission at this point. Steve is I'm sure that when we ask you to vote on all these things and you hadn't had the benefit of sitting in on any of the discussions, let alone the chance to familiarize yourself with the regs, that's what get paid the big bucks for. So there's a lot to learn, we'll get there. But I certainly appreciate having Steve on the Commission and look forward to working with him as I enjoy working with all you folks on this and come to the best answers that we can. So welcome, Steve. Anything you want? Thanks, Jed. Tell us about yourself in two minutes or less kind of deal.
Sure. I know everybody's pretty tired. Long meeting. But happy to be part of the team here. My wife Charlotte and I moved to Andover two years ago. We bought for anybody that remembers Priscilla Bronkey, we bought Priscilla's house on the lake. Totally. Yeah.
Never met Priscilla, but I heard great stories about her. Anyway, we want to do our part to contribute. And I was a little surprised to get elected after only living here two years, but happy to serve. And I am an engineer, undergraduate degree in engineering. I haven't done any hardcore engineering in several years. I'm more management, helping to run an engineering services business here in Connecticut. But this kind of stuff really interests me. And I obviously am going to be drinking from a fire hose for a little while. So if you guys can be patient with me, I appreciate that. But I'm sure I'll come up to speed pretty fast.
So Steve is also on Alpoa and Alma. So for a guy who's been in town all of two years, there's been a lot of volunteer time sucking them up and here you go. So great to have Steve join us. The other addition is Abby Winter who I forget how long who is well let me just say I know Abby is another recent addition to the town of Andover, hasn't been here too long and again you know is involved in just a ton of stuff to make Andover Dick. So how about tell us a little bit about you there, Abi?
Yeah, absolutely. So I moved here last October and since moving here I've dove in into working over and over and starting a community garden in town. If you've heard of it, please stop by. It's right behind town hall, as well as helping onboard here. I'd love I'm really excited to learn more about planning and zoning and land use. I currently am working in the water monitoring group. I'm really interested in land use and seeing how you all contribute to this really interesting piece of land we have here in Andover. Abby, you're a graduate student over at UConn?
Yes, Someone studying environmental science. Are there? Environmental science and energy. Yep, so
especially for the inland wetlands folks, works out. That's right up Abby's alley but she is certainly very passionate about all this stuff that we're doing and very nice to have her here. Thank you. Susan
England couldn't join us. She has other obligations tonight, but she went from being the full time Commission member to an alternate. So we've got the three alternates, Kevin, Anne and Susan now. Life is good. We're a full house. So that is just great. Oh, I guess we've got minutes to approve from the last time. And so with that, I can only say thank you, Mindy, for the fantastic job you've done throughout your tenure here on writing the minutes. I will ask well, I guess first, I'm looking for a motion to approve the minutes from the June 21 meeting. I move to approve the minutes.
Thank you. You, Ian. Looking for a second. Sooner we second, sooner we get to go. Second. Thank you, Scott. Any comments on the minutes? Any discussion? Again, I thought they were very well done, Mindy. I'll embarrass myself by two or three typos on page three paragraph 5B under the second line in there, applicants in and, which should be an A N. At the bottom of that page, third paragraph up from the bottom, second line, coverage needs the E at the end of the word there. And then the last little paragraph there, if the extension is granted instead of ingranted, So and then on the very last page at the top there on the special meeting site walk of June 1, it's got we move to approve the meeting minutes as presented, and it says Scott Person moved. It should be Scott Person seconded. And so any other comments on the minutes? Hearing none, call for a vote. Anne? Aye. Scott? Aye. Leigh Ann?
Oh, I just saw something. Sorry. Oh, under sorry. Now I'm trying to backtrack. Something minor. Under five d, discussion action about the dog kennel. Yep.
The second paragraph, SBB stated that operates as a as a doggy daycare probably just meant to say as a doggy daycare five d
I sorry it's no big deal I'm trying to do this quickly yep no I've got you so on
page five item 5D, second paragraph, Scott Beebe stated that he operates as a doggy daycare. So we need to add the word he and eliminate the word does. I think so. Yep. Good comment, Leanne. So we will add that to our list of procedures.
I will go back and vote one more time starting from the top. Aye. Scott? Aye. Leigh Ann? Aye. Steve?
Since I didn't attend the meeting, can I just abstain?
You can, yep. Thank you. And I vote aye as well. So the motion passes four-zero-one with Steve Nelson abstaining. Okay. Agent Halsey, any correspondence or administrative reports?
Not much to report. I I have been working limited hours the last month. I do have a couple of enforcement actions that I have put on put on hold. Hopefully, we'll be moving forward on at this time. A lot of activity given, for whatever reason, backlog of permits, working through them. Other than that, I have nothing new to report.
Okay. Any questions for our zoning agent? Hearing none, move on to commission discussion, miscellaneous.
Ed, could you just quickly go over return to live planning and zoning commission? I got kicked out again tonight, Greg, when you were talking about that. Yep. So
at least for the next meeting, we're going to do another Zoom. My rationale for that is it is so convenient to have people pop in who maybe don't live right next door to town hall, whether it be the lawyer or engineer or even applicants and their engineers and that sort of thing. So there's the ease of that. I like the ease of presenting materials electronically on the screen that's right in front of everybody. And I also think the acoustics are better. We're able to understand more clearly than we can in the community room. The only downside is that we don't get a chance to really meet each other as people, which I think is very important. With technology today, that's what's driving us away from getting to know who our neighbors are. And I think there is a big detriment to that but
for the time being with I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and until I get comfortable with the technology over there in the community center and how that's going to work, would like to continue to do a virtual meeting. Okay, thank you. Yep.
Any other discussion miscellaneous thoughts? Okay, moving on to the public comment. I'm sure that we don't have any public remaining here. Very good. And so before I get a motion to approve, Abby, you now see what your challenge is ahead. Take all this discussion and try to distill it somehow. How Ian has done that so well, I don't know. But get the secret from her, not Ann Mindy. Ann just happens to be sitting in the little box right next to you as I look it up there. Mindy has done an exceptional job and I know you'll do just as well, but there's got to be a trick in there, I don't know what the trick is. So get it for Mindy before she's gone. And welcome to Abby and Steve. At this point, looking for a motion to adjourn.
I move that we adjourn the meeting. Thank you, Anne. Any second? Leanne,
I'll second. Thank you, Lee Ann. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? The motion carries unanimously, five-zero-zero. Thank you everybody and good night and I appreciate all the work that all of you do to support the Commission. I enjoy working with all of you. So thank you. Thank you.