Meeting transcript
Planning and Zoning- Regular Meeting
May 19, 2026 · Watch on YouTube · All meetings
Sorry, I can I can pause the recording. I just don't want to forget.
That's fine. Thank you, John. Well, we have a quorum, so I guess we can begin. Welcome to the May 19th Andover Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. And we're now calling the meeting to order. And first things first, present is Leanne Hutchinson, Jed Larson, Scott Persan, and myself, and the Jay is here.
I'm here. How you doing, guys?
You will be seated as the alternate. You'll be seated tonight.
Okay, sounds good. think in bagels online yet. So, all right. And we do we're moving right along to item three, additions and changes to the agenda. We do have an addition. we we are adding a 5A second constitation to for whispering bills for old business for the planning part of our planning zone. Are there any other changes or additions the agenda? Make a motion to approve the agenda as amended.
Second. Any discussion? All in favor? I
J.
I'm good.
Okay. Motion passes. Five Z. Any Okay, moving right along to public speak. See some extra people online. Well, they're online with for for new business. Okay,
very good. Moving right along now. We're at old business. the floor is yours. and if you want
Yes, please announce yourself.
I'm giving names for most people know me as the state just I brought this is you were you discussed it last month while I twist the bills and thank you on the property because nobody can see it from the road. you could share quite the study civil engineer Jessica Chapman who's the manager of the project has has contacted us about doing the engineering for the application but the property is you know it's on wheels whales road and shotty hill road there are 32 apartments at the present time she was here a month ago and discussed that she'd like to put some or onto the piece of property and there's a mention of the 8-30g procedure for doing it and my question to you is since I was saying civil engineering preparing the information what do do you envision the next step as far as this then what level of information are you because it's not in your regulations and on't want to spend any more money than we have to do.
Those are fair questions. U I'm going to defer to our town planner John and maybe Wayne a little bit here because we're this would be the first time that I'm at my knowledge that 8:30 was utilized to add apartments to our town.
so if if I might Mr. Sure.
Thank you, John. Yep.
So, yeah, I mean it it's a little bit tricky and I'm sorry I I missed the name. Is it Skip the the book?
So, it's a little bit tricky to ask the zoning commission how to proceed with an 830G because 830G is sort of designed by the state to do a an endound around local zoning regulations. So, it it's it's used when zoning regulations would not otherwise allow the sort of housing density that you're proposing. so you you wouldn't find an answer in the zoning regulations. I I think and and I I've talked to your your your client or your partner about this a little bit. I I think you and she need to determine what your goals are in terms of unit yield and and understand where on the property you'd like those units to go. I think you you probably need to do some soil testing to determine if you've got sufficient, you know, and and decent enough soils to dispose of the waste water that's generated by the new housing units as well as your well
yields to make sure that you can provide portable water and possibly fire protection depending on fire codes for those units. I I think I think the idea being you need to do your development due diligence mapping site investigation and and development planning as if this was essentially a go because if you you know if you present a plan that you know sets aside 30% of the new units as incomerestricted and you are able to answer you know basic issues of public health, safety and welfare, this will be a go. You know, the state is put its thumb on the scale on on your side. and you know, the the only thing you would really need the zoning commission for is if you were looking to change the current regulations in order to, you know, legally and locally enable the sort of development that that you would want to do there. But barring that and and you know if you're going to proceed down the 830g path you should proceed with a site development plan as if you were doing something you know as of right from scratch. I I would add that I I really think the commission needs to be cautious in discussing an A30G because that is essentially an appeal of a zoning decision as far as the way I understand it.
Yeah. and and yes and that's yeah the the way that the statute envisions 830G going is you know you as you know the the property owner would present this apartment expansion plan the zoning commission would look at it and say hey we don't allow these in this location you're denied and then you would take that denial to court and make your case for 830G there is something called a friendly 830G which that which basically proceeds with the planning and zoning commission going into the process acknowledging that not only does the town not have 10% of its housing stock you know designated as affordable. So therefore the town is subject but you know so we intend to cooperate with this process and will focus our comments and our review of the proposed development exclusively. We will not look at the elements of you know do we allow multif family here or what is the density allowed what are the setbacks allowed that sort of thing. we will ignore those and focus our comments exclusively on those elements of public health, safety and welfare. So the town can be an active participant, planning and zoning can be an active participant in what we would call a friendly 830G. But yeah, broadly speaking, as Wayne said, the way the statute is set up. this is, you know, you would take your denial from planning and zoning because we don't allow this and go to court. But but we can you know I I think this commission would be more than willing to entertain a a friendly A30G with the understanding that you know andover is subject to this statute. I guess you know when I started looking at how I thought this might go I thought
we would do in I don't know if it's site plan review or special permit you know I but I would just go through the process we would have as if it were allowed by our regulations right and
sit down you we've got a 57 step checklist of all the things that a special permit would require. And I think if you did most of those, there might be some things that you want to not do and and you and Wayne agreed that that was appropriate, you filled the checklist out that way. But I think what we're really looking for is the site plan that shows what you want to do and the approvals from, you know, the fire sanitarian, that kind of thing. And then, I would think that whether we determined it was a special permit or a site plan review, my sense would be we ought to do a public hearing on it because it's first 8:30G. There's going to be a lot of confusion in the town. That gives us a chance to answer everybody's questions about that right off the bat. But even though we don't have regulations to say that, you know, with the friendly P30G, if you will, you know, we don't have to disapprove it and and let you take it to court, I think we're clear to say we approve it knowing that, you know, E30G is on your side and we see no reason that it wouldn't be upheld that way. Right.
But I would just use our special permit instruction section 23
of the range.
I think Jed Jed, you're broadly correct. The one wrinkle is that an A30G application need you know must comply with site plan standards or I mean site plan procedures. it is you are not specifically authorized to hold a public hearing on it unless the applicant so consents.
the rationale of the the commission determining it's in the public interest doesn't work in this case. I I mean, you know, that would be ideally sort of the the mutual friendliness of a friendly 830G is that the applicant would would say, you know, I I want to be transparent here. I want to make sure that that the town understands and so I am consenting to a public hearing. But but you you you should not mistake that for this being entitled to a public hearing. No, I just think the applicant and the commission would both benefit from sure the public chance to ask questions and get it all out on the table. Otherwise, the rumor bill is going to go crazy.
Of of course, but but you know, we need to be cautious with not giving anyone the sense that the the public or the commission for that matter has more authority or say than they actually do.
Yeah. But we went through that with the Dollar General. You know, we didn't have a whole, but I think it worked out well that we did. Dollar General was permitted by our regulations.
Yeah, I got you.
So, I I I just I I am I am I can't emphasize enough. I I I believe the commission needs to be cautious on how it proceeds because you're giving advice to an applicant that we and we we don't have we have no legal counsel here to advise us at this time. that I'll just leave it at that. But as far as coming to the commission with a fully developed site plan, absolutely you have to do that. That's that's that's step one. How where you going to put these? How you going to take, as John discussed, how you going to address septic and water and and safety and and all that good stuff? what what else you planning on doing? you know pop river trail borders this property going to do something with that things like that so that that's where that's where I am a fully developed site plan A2 survey A2 A2 standards and all that good stuff you you know it well sure
so when you say safety what are you referring to as part of the plan you said subject water and safety Yes. Fire fire access, emergency access,
appropriate lighting,
you know,
and understand things have changed since these were built in 1967 as far as a lot of these things are concerned. So that's that's where I am. But I think I think one of the top reasons at least from the newspaper articles I read are when when people view safety, they talk about road traffic in the vicinity of the development,
but it has to be addressed.
Yeah, it does. in the that's that's on the article here to address it. Great.
So we take a look at traffic how you're getting traffic on.
Okay. So how do we determine that
so that's and again not getting too too deep into the weeds on this but if you're talking about traffic I I think you would probably do a a an existing conditions traffic count. how many vehicles are going out of your driveway and onto the road in the course of you know x hours or or the course of a day and then you what you do then is a projection forward. So you've got what third 32 units there right now.
Yes.
you you know you do those counts say you know those 32 units generate 120 vehicle trips per day going you know left and right onto the onto the town road. you know with a peak flow of you know maybe between 7:30 and 8:30 in the morning is your peak flow and you've got you know 15 of them or something like that. and that establishes a level of service. So like how long does someone need to sit at that intersection before they're cleared to make a left or right turn. And then you do the projection forward. If you're adding another 16 units, what is that traffic count likely to be? And does that affect the time that people have to wait at the driveway or on the town road? my my suspicion is and I'm not not casting any judgment about this. Traffic volumes on that road are extraordinarily low and an additional 16 units are probably not to change not going to change it that much, but it it's you know necessary to kind of do that exercise to to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the commission that you know this additional traffic volume is not creating an unsafe condition. Okay, got it.
That checklist is important.
Just follow that.
Okay.
Goes over fire marshall. He's got it. Okay. And all just a lot of things on the checklist like Wayne saying.
Okay.
Easy enough.
And then if I might add in my opinion to try and be conforming to the rest of the zoning regulator.
the lighting. Yeah. So, it's not shining at the neighbors. These are all requests because I'm not sure of the legal implications of what I'm asking, but at the same time,
well, lighting is the same.
Okay, fair enough. And then we also have the with what was referred to as a summary review or site plan review. We discussed that briefly, but also the environmental review. So that would go before
inland wetland has to weigh in on
Yeah,
but they just weigh in. Correct.
No, they it depends on what was identified as wetland.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Are you looking for full environmental
just wetlands? Just
No, it
right. If there's if there's if there's wetlands and I you know I assume there's no there's no flood plane on site. there's, you know, if there are endangered species, that's something that we should know. But yeah, it's it's primarily wetlands.
And in fact, wetlands comes first before the permission.
Okay.
Well, anything else or Yeah.
Okay.
So,
thank you very much.
All right. Thank you.
Oh, let me do some homework.
There it is.
Yes.
There's no other old business. double checking before we move on.
As far as I know.
Okay.
Put it in there. well, before we move on to old business, I just want to like to take the opportunity to just have a quick discussion about this because and that since I did review the attorney Branch's input on new developments and the state's new requirements, a couple of things that caught my eye were the architect arctural review board or summary review, site plan review, which in this case would actually be applicable because that's like the only things we do have a right to have an import. If correct me if I'm wrong, John,
that's what I was interpreting from that class, the online class.
I 830G throws a lot of that out the window.
Oh, it does. but summary review is applicable to the state's new requirements for what's called transit oriented middle housing, these small multifamilies. That summary review is still is still applicable to that. 830G is a different animal
if we had those regulations in place.
Yes, correct,
which we should try to get on top of soon. And also I wanted to kind of get the feel of the commission. Do you think we need a subcommittee
to address jumping?
Oh yes.
Yeah. Maybe. Okay. We can talk about it later discussion, but also the economic development commission, we had our meeting last night. We we talked about a lot of this stuff, too. So I just want to make sure that we start looping them in and they're involved more here. also going forward with the hopefully some zoning regs for multif family and you know what's the max we would want to do etc but we can talk about that moving on to new business okay we have Scott Electrocraft's here We have Chris Busy who is come to the coming to the commission to discuss concepts for potential expansion of Scott Electrocrafts. I believe everybody knows where that is located on Route 6, pretty much close to the Coventry line.
Scott, you have I mean Chris, you have a floor.
Hey guys, thanks for having us. I have my general manager on the call with me as well, Tom Johnston. So, over the course of the last year, we've grown significantly here and our, you know, our current floor space isn't really allowing us to expand much more. So, we've been having internal discussions over the last year or so on things that we can do. And we've been speaking to some outside construction companies and we're looking at potentially different ways where we could add anywhere between, you know, 10 to 13,000 square foot, you know, depending on what the the land and the the current lot will allow us to do. So, we're just kind of we're we're still in the early stages here, but we're trying to lean into the town to see what you guys will allow us. We understand that, you know, parking in septic will be, you know, a big part of this, but, you know, we're we're trying to also understand, you know, how like how far from the the road there on Route 6 are we allowed to go towards and
and that that's that's essentially really it. So, I've put the I've put the copy of the sketch that was sent by Scott Electrocs 2 on the screen so you can kind of see broadly what they're envisioning.
Yeah, it's on like a super high level as to, you know, what we're really trying to accomplish there. And we believe by doing that would allow, you know, an additional 10,000 square feet and we'd able we'd be able to bring, you know, our current employee count up to, you know, 75 would be the max we could probably fit in there. Well, do you know what the distance would be from the the edge of your new building to the road?
Like how far from the main road?
Yes. so if you if you've been by our building before, there's a little building out in front that's used as our break room.
And that's about the as far out as we we would want to go where where that building ends.
So you demolish that building and not any closer to the road than
Yeah. No, no closer than where it is right now. Where the where that building is right now. But just try to enclose off the entire building and you know make it one big square. You know, at one point we were in a, you know, a brief discussion with trying to get a hold of whoever owns the lot next door to us, but from our understanding that that piece of land is with Forestry for the next couple years. So, that owner isn't willing to sell at this current time.
We used to own it.
Yeah. At a time we owned it. How long ago was that? I would say 35 years ago.
Yeah. But if we if we were able to get that, that would be, you know, pretty big for, you know, adding a parking lot over there. And now with the latest addition that, you know, with that stoplight that was added this past week.
So, I put up on the screen, I believe, if I'm if I I put a copy of the zoning regulations. ind this is industrially zoned. Wayne, you'll have to tell me if we're adjacent to residential or not.
No.
but it looks like
one might be but go ahead.
the front yard setback appears to be 100 ft. So from your front property line along Route 6, you're 100t back for structures, 35 ft on one side and a total of 75 ft for your two sideyards and 35 ft for your rear yard.
How does this work? How does this play into effect with parking?
Parking is not considered a structure.
Okay.
So, parking can be located in the front yard.
Okay.
And is that I was trying to find the words. I'm assuming that's measured like all other setbacks are from the center line of the road.
No, from the property line.
No, from the front yard setback.
Front front yard is is from the front property line, not from the center line of the road. Well, in our other in our ARD regulations, it's actually says the center line of the
Okay, for 24.3. All right. Sorry. Let's let me check.
So, this would be an addition or a new larger separate building than the
It would be an addition where we would want to tie everything in. We were we we've been working with Slotnik Construction out of Mansfield on this. Oh, there. they've been putting together a proposal on a budget for us. And one of the other things that kind of came up too was with fire protection. We understand from our understanding since we would be going over, you know, 24,000 square foot in current footprint that we would actually have to have fire protection. Is that correct?
There it is. hang on.
Last line, John. Edge of the pavement in the business and industrial zone. except where step back is measured from edge of pavement. Okay. So, so 100 feet from the edge of pavement, which is a little odd because the edge of pavement can change if the road is is adjusted.
Now, that existing building was a restaurant at one time, correct?
Correct.
Yes.
And that was that was issued a special permit back in the day to operate. And I don't I don't have the details on that. But
you know how long ago that was me?
oh, a long time ago. I'm trying to remember if I remember back in the 80s was it? Yeah,
it was in the early 80s
because it was like Jenny's place, Suz's place.
Anyway, I'm just there's there's history there. So, and of course, if worse comes to worse, I suppose a variance could be asked for. Oh, no. We can vary stuff for business and industrial, can't we? I don't know. I'd have to check that out. I guess the other comment I would make was I don't know how many square foot the lot is that you currently have, but you know, one of the requirements on that chart that John had up on the screen a minute ago was 50% lot coverage. And so we need to make sure that we didn't exceed that.
Yeah. And just
hat's some calculation to do. I I'm also we may have a little bit of a a setback issue if if we're we're measuring setback from the edge of pavement and this is this is you know please understand this is Google maps so this is not a survey but just taking a rough and I don't know if you can see this well but basically drawing a line from the edge of the pavement as I can see it on the screen here and going about 100 ft it takes you well past the existing shed there and and takes up a you know a chunk of that that front yard. So there may be some engineering challenges just just to fit the geometry again unless you're looking for a text amendment or a variance.
What about our addition in 2007? That's the front building there. It must be it looks like it's inside that rate.
It is. I I I don't know. someone who was here in 2007 may have more insight on how that was permitted. It's possible the regulations changed between then and now or or yeah, I I I couldn't say.
I think worst case scenario, we'd like to just tie it, you know, get rid of the front building and tie in the same length out of that building straight across the front.
Yeah. you know, that's what you know, if if it's that much of a variance, I would just it would make the whole building look a lot better from the road and it would kind of make give us space too without really a lot of wasted space out front of our building like that.
Right. No, it makes sense. I think then we'd have to check Wayne if you know what the regulations are on extension of existing non-conforming structure if you're allowed to if we could swap out, you know, removal of this building with extending the building to the south.
Correct.
that that may be something that can be swapped out, but we'll have to take take a look at the rags.
I will I I did dig up the and I I'm sorry. I didn't I should have thought to have printed them off or or scanned them. the 2007 edition, I don't know if any board me any members were here. and how that came to be. there there were several additions to that property over the years, 2007 being the most recent and
97 98 we did the other edition.
Right. Right. So, I will dig all that stuff up, Chris. I'll send it to you. I'll let the commission have it. And you too, John.
Okay. Thank you.
Also, I think you were asking Thomas, you were asking or Chris, I'm not sure who was asking about the fire requirements. You'd have to check the check with our fire department.
Okay.
Yeah. Our only concern with that is because we're strictly like electronics, we could not really use water in our facility. we would have to go to the other forms of fire suppression. understand that's that's not that's not our call,
right? Okay.
I think that I don't want to speak for the commission. It's not my place,
but we have but it is but it is a a you know long-standing business in town.
Yes.
Employs a lot of people. Yep.
Probably pays a lot of taxes. If I recall, they're one of our biggest stash fairs in town. So,
Chris, in working with your engineer, do you have any preliminary plans done? Just
No, just really what I sent you.
Okay.
Was the only thing We should we we should be getting more information from them in the coming weeks. They they've been kind of going back and forth with they're looking into the fire suppression thing for us now trying to get a budgetary quote in there. We were quoted out a price, but they're not going to go to anything preliminary until there's a contract in place.
Right. Right. Then they'll be able to start working internally on, you know, with their engineers on, you know, getting something together from my understanding to then take to the town of Andover to then work with you.
Would the commissioner like to hear from Chris next meeting and with more information provided by me and the rest of it?
Yes. and Before we go further, I'm I'm presuming that the if you were to expand on I mean well before that was is there anybody in the commission that would think that the front of the building is not a good idea before we even go further like cuz the I'm sure the back of the building you might have evaluated that there's
that's there there's a bank.
Oh, there's a bank. all right.
Yeah, there's the whole river that runs to the back.
Yeah,
that's like our only real feasible land for any sort of expansion. That's where this kind of started.
You do have room for parking on the side, though.
Yeah.
That's the only question I have.
Yeah.
So,
I guess the question I really have is how did we address, you know, is there something in the package that addresses the fact that we're not 100 ft from the edge of the road,
right,
when we built it 2007. Is that what
Yeah.
That whole new building was the building 07. Yeah.
did and they should have been addressed.
That's something I should have brought to the commissioner, but
well, we don't know right now. So,
I I'll get it to you guys and u
Okay,
Chris and John and I believe that was a site plan approved. That was a site plan approval, too. That was not a special permit. There were previous expansions that were special permits, and that threw me off. It's another thing to decide because me and John were going back and forth on whether this would be a site plan or a special permit activity is allowed in an industrial zone.
So technically it's not really
be a special I didn't think it was.
Yeah, it's it's allowed this is allowed in in But still be a site review. Commission would still get the drawings and all that good stuff. Any other questions from Scott electronics? No, nothing for myself.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. we have our two candidates. Yay. And beyond should be more formal. J CN be flip a coin start. You already have your letter of intent in your copy.
Yeah. Does the commission have any questions? Start that one.
The only thing to point out is that your letter says that you were applying for an alternate vacancy, but you're not really you're applying for the full position. My apologies. Yes,
she corrected that.
Okay. So, sorry. So I I guess my my question is you know a point of order here. We had I think the notice said we had an opening.
Yeah.
And so when made the mistake on our letter I said this is great. We've got one of the alternates wants to be the regular. We've got somebody new who wants to be an alternate. We're all done. Then I started wrestling with in that that one opening. They just shift it again, bring it in somebody new. And I don't know that we could do that, but I think it would sure be nice. I mean, well, it depends on how it goes. There may be an opening on there. Yeah. that I believe will have to be announced and go through the same process per the charter under the by
Yeah, the charter.
Oh, sorry. Charter. You're right. Charter. I'm sorry.
Okay. So like like need vision a little too much.
Good thinking.
Yeah,
I like where you were going.
Well, it wasn't exactly right.
Candidates. Let me ask each candidate to give a little
presentation and then
you guys go from there.
Jay, would you like to go first?
Yeah, of course. Can you hear me? Okay.
Yes, we can. Thank you.
Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I was elected as an alternate in the last election and I've really had a wonderful experience. have really enjoyed getting to to know the P&Z and also kind of understanding some of the the issues and challenges that that you have. trying to have you know a progress forward kind of a approach to development while also being you know very conscious of kind of handover and its needs and its own personality and wanting to preserve that. so I've just had a I've had a good time and so the I don't think I've missed a meeting. So when the position came up, I was more than happy to put myself forward to try and fill the position and be happy to do so if you if you need me.
Thank you.
Yeah, I don't I can answer questions, but I think that's about that's that's it in terms of my motivations. Earing up. Bata, your turn.
Thank you for having me.
I think everybody knows me. Jay, we haven't had the pleasure to meet yet. but I have an interest in planning and zoning because it's very career adjacent and I happen to really love what I do. I'm also deeply invested in the growth and future of this town being having a younger family in the schools, moving on to Ram next year and you know I would love to help with my real estate knowledge as that is my current career. and you know, I think I have a an interesting perspective a different perspective maybe than is currently on the board on the commission that would maybe lend nicely. I also currently serve on ETC. I am PTA president elect for next year and I do serve on some professional committees, regional events, young professionals network. so yes, would love to be a part of the commission if you'll have me in any capacity.
Thank you. Any questions from the commission? All right, hearing up. Thank you for your interviews and I guess we'll close out item seven and go into executive session.
Executive session two.
All right. So, who who's being invited to stay?
I think everybody but Biana and Jay have to I mean and Jay have to leave. I think everybody else is staying on here.
So Jay needs to log back in at some point or
Yeah, he can't be
I could I could actually bring us
There wasn't There was a way you did it before where we
Yeah. No, I could Yeah, I could take you to I could take us all to a breakout room.
I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. Do you want me to just do that?
It's up to you.
Okay, Jay, you you stay put.
yeah. Okay.
All right. So, Kevin and Wayne, you've been invited to the breakout room.
I'm going to hit pause on the recording. I have to make a statement for the record that we voted unanimous unanimously to go to executive session but it was not recorded. So you want to I'm sorry Mr. Secretary, you want to state for the record that no decisions were made in public in executive session?
I will make that statement. No decisions were made in executive session. We did not vote.
Ask Go ahead. I'm sorry.
No, just saying in the affirmative. I heard you.
Oh, good. Thank you. Thank you.
Oh, Did you guys
I'm looking for a motion.
I'll make a motion that we elect Jay as the new member to fill the vacancy created by there. Second.
I'll second.
what's your vote? discussion. Thank you. I'm a little flustered. Any discussion?
The reason I'm flustered for the record is we we like both candidates. Thank you. let's take a vote. I motion passes 30 and J is abstain have recused himself abstained
you abstained correct J
correct yes yeah abstain
That's great. Thank you so much. Can I can I make a quick statement?
Yes.
Yeah. I just think it's really fantastic that we had two people that wanted to step up for a town committee. and so I think that's wonderful. It's it's it's great and I hope that we can build the alternate seat
shortly soon. So
thank you.
Thank you for your consideration.
Thank you.
Congratulations, J.
So there will be an opening for the alternative posted shortly.
So I'll correct my letter back to just let you know.
Thank you.
Okay.
Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay. moving on to item 10, correspondence. commission has some correspondence, but that's for basically item 11 is discussion. I don't and no I I don't have any any correspondence for the commission. No other corresponds. Okay, moving on. Unless you have some I do not. Let's move on. should we wait till Le Rian gets back or take a pause?
Yeah, I think we have to make a pause. There's going to be discussion.
Yeah. John, in preparation for this section, could you pull up mixed use development andor the new chart that Maybe the chart chart precaution.
I'm sorry. What are you asking me to pull up?
Yeah.
I don't know. I don't even know. Sorry. Well, I'm thinking that that this discussion is going to be a a very high level organizing discussion, not necessarily get into any nitty-gritty on any particular specific topic because of our discussion about potentially creating a working group to address this. So you just want me to review sort of high level what sort of regulations need to be adjusted on the basis of public act 251 and and sort of how I recommend proceeding.
Yes,
okay. So there are two categories and and I know Mark Brance had had forwarded a bunch of templates and thoughts for you. I think some of what he's doing is I think he there's a couple of things in there that I'm not sure why he necessarily included, but we can we can talk with him about it. basically there are two sets of regulations that the commission needs to consider ideally before July 1st. It's it's probably too late in the game for us to have our revised regulations in place effective July 1st, but we can do it shortly thereafter and I think no harm done. the the first is the town is the town like every community in Connecticut is required to now allow what's referred to as transit oriented middle housing which is basically small multif family housing in as a site plan use. the that the statute calls it summary review, but that is essentially a a site plan approach in all commercial and mixed use zoning districts. So basically our our commercial corridor along route six will need to be adjusted to I think define what is transit oriented middle housing which is basically multif family units of two through nine units or a mixeduse development that includes multif family of two through nine units. Those need to be allowed by site plan in the commercial district. So that's number one. number two is we need to change our parking regulations relative to minimum parking requirements for residential uses and anything under 16 residential units. So our our single family residences, our accessory apartments and and our small a small
multif family including this transit oriented middle housing. cannot be denied solely on the basis of lack of off- streetet parking. So, we need to adjust our our parking standards there. And in a town like Andover, if you develop any kind of housing thing, you're going to provide parking. That's just how you know development is done in places where we have no, you know, we're not walkable. We don't have trains. We don't have buses. but we need the state statute requires us to adjust our parking regulations in that we cannot require significant off- streetet parking for residential units above 16 residential units. We are authorized to require a maximum of you can maximally require I should say one off- streetet parking space for a studio or one-bedroom apartment or a or two parking spaces for a two or more bedroom unit. so we basically need to address two areas small multif family in our commercial zone and and residential parking standards. for the first one I think Mark Brance has provided because it is a site plan review process, the town can still have fairly specific and fairly rigid requirements in terms of setbacks, in terms of lighting, in terms of landscaping, in terms of, you know, building design, roof, roof slope, fenistration. there's all kinds of requirements the town can put in place, but they cannot be discretionary. It cannot be a special permit process with a public hearing where we kind of negotiate terms. It needs to be fixed standards. Either you either you comply or you don't. but those those standards can be fairly high should the commission be concerned about what these developments might look like in your commercial area. So I think that's what attorney Brance provided. he provided a set of proposed regulations
for inclusionary zoning which is a purely optional provision of the state statutes. I I I don't think we need to focus on that right now unless you really want to. and I will I will close this little introduction by saying I think probably the easiest way to proceed would be to for you Mr. chairman to task a small ad hoc committee to sort of meet separately, make their recommendations to the full commission so we don't have to sort of hash things out you know on a on a Tuesday night with a full group.
Yeah.
And I would add that because we are now getting seems like more interest in larger scale developments. I took a look at the regulations and our ability to pass engineering and legal costs on to the applicants and attorney branch agrees with me that we don't really have that.
Every other town does.
Every other town does and he provided us with some language.
Oh [ __ ]
I saw how close he was over.
Wow.
There was a They're
Yeah, it goes over my house.
I know.
I haven't seen anything like that since I was a kid. And then they started making them flyer.
Anyway, sorry, folks.
Anyway,
it's an exciting moment. I I I missed what happened there. Wayne saw something. That's all I
We had a fly by. A couple of military planes just took a nice banking turn low over
town of Andover. so anyway, attorney branch did give us some language for for that and it may be according to attorney branch some enabling legis lab enabling language in a ordinance. The ordinance that we currently have only gives the commission authority to set fees for applications. So I I strongly would urge the commission to look at that because as we know our legal and engineering costs be very significant.
So it's an addition to work on that.
I that's I'm leaving that up to the commission. I would I would suggest and I would suggest that that's the lowhanging fruit here. but we we do need to address the affordable housing issues. Absolutely. The only places I found the the ability to pass costs along were in the area of storm water management. that's that that's my two cents worth it. You know, I'm sure me and John be happy to work with your ad hoc committee through any information that that I can provide and I know John's the same way. I guess my thought was that John some regulations for us. Never talked about them.
We Yeah, we could we could do it that way. I just wanted to task us with doing it. The the one question I would have is towns take can take very different approaches particular. I mean, the parking rags are easy, but the the the summary review of middle housing can really go in a bunch of different directions depending on how much you want to regulate. Like if you really want to build up a a fairly high bar for design and layout of these facilities, that that takes a little bit more work. I I will say the town of Colombia next door already has basically multif family as of right or I should say by site plan review in their commercial district. So they really decided they're not they don't need to make any changes at all. They basically say, "Okay, we already allow this by site plan, you know." but and and other towns, for instance,
Volentown, which is obviously a very different town from from Andover, although it's they're both rural, chose to just have a setback, a maximum coverage, and a little bit of a perimeter landscaping thing and just leave it at that. No building design things, no, you know, issue with fenestration, no thing about and it's really sort of, you know, how do you want these things to look? If if you don't have building design criteria for your current single family residences or your current commercial buildings, you know, do you really need separate design criteria for this middle housing? But the these are sort of the fundamental high level questions we want to ask before like I'm asking planning questions first and then we'll get those zoning regulations right you know
and does the commission want to engage the citizens of the town in this in this process in any way u via a questionnaire or or something like that. I'm just throwing that out there. I can get the get the input from from the citizens of the town.
What would be the charge of this subcommittee
to look at ours to to come back to the commission with recommendations for
essentially affordable housing regulations. I I would I would say I'm sorry, Wayne. I would I would just say regulatory amendments to comply with public act 251.
Okay, I'll go with that. Y
public act
25501. That was the big omnibus u are you going to be involved with these meetings?
I'm sorry. Am I?
Yeah.
If you if you'd like me to.
I'm at your disposal, guys. be asked that and I would even, you know, at some point we probably need to reach out to attorney Branch. probably when we have something.
Yeah. When we have something to review,
something Yeah. something him to review. So I avoid spending money on attorneys. But John was working on the plan confession development, right? So I think that you know after that's done then this would be as
if the PCD is done is done.
It's done. That's what I'm saying. So
f course this is all part
and this this exercise fits right in with the PC.
Yeah.
Do we really need a subcommittee?
Why can't he draw it all up and bring it to us?
That's I'm that's an option. No,
me and together I'm I'm I'm you know I'm I'm happy to do that. I guess I would want I would want sort of that first question answered if you know it. I guess so here here let me just ask you this way. how nervous does that make you that that the state is basically saying you have to allow small multif family nine units or under along the Route 6 corridor? you know, are do do you are you worried that this is going to really h have some detrimental effect on the community character and and and the the visual outlook on of of the Route 6 and your your commercial corridor. if you know if you're relatively confident that developers will do a decent job if someone's going to build a new small multif family building, you trust that they'll they'll you know have decent design approaches, then we can we can regulate it very minimally. if you want to be very prescriptive about what these things should look like and how they sit on the site and how they're landscaped and how they are, you know, designed and lit, then it can be, you know, more complicated. It's it's really how much do you want to regulate these things? That's the question.
What regulate
or not?
You think
medium?
I'm not necessarily.
Are we able to get any kind of
I was asking what it would charge. I'm not familiar with this. So Wayne, is that why you suggested maybe public input? I I'm I'm just I'm just making suggestions to the commission that this is going to be something that's going we're going to have to have public hearings on all this. so I mean the public will be able to weigh in at that point. I I I I would like to see us as a town try and do more to engage our citizens in any decision making process that we do with town, not just here, but anywhere.
Any
any
Hey folks,
can I jump in?
Other than whether we're gonna sweep the room like
Go ahead, Jay. Sorry.
Yeah, thanks. I'm just wondering just a couple of things if if we can get any kind of wisdom from other local towns that have been dealing with this and and see what they have to say in terms of giving us advice. And second, I think in just in terms of public engagement, it it feels like it would be good if before we do that that we have at least some thoughts and some thoughts of our own kind of formed that we could bring to them and in terms of suggestions you know I don't know done but I think they
could be doing a better job of advertising ing the public hearings that we'll have to have rather than just you know legal notice in the riveries that nobody reads.
So John, I thought one of the takeaways from the transit oriented housing was that that applied anywhere, not just Mexican transit places. It applies in any commercial or mixeduse zoning district.
Okay. So, it's not anywhere.
No, it's not. It's not not in residential district. You do not have to change your residential regulations at all.
Okay. I I misread that going through there. I thought that was anywhere. But,
and that's that's another thing that I I brought up. Does is the town interested in allowing duplexes and triplexes in the residential district? You guys can just shoot me if you want, but I I feel obligated to to bring it up for the commission.
Yeah. And I think and I think, you know, that that's it's it's good of Wayne to jump on this now. I I think it could also, you know, we are going to have to basically in about a year's time start having serious conversations about what's the what's called the town's housing growth plan or our participation in the regional housing growth plan. and some of those techniques, some of those zoning changes allowing duplexes, triplexes, quads or something like that is an appropriate implementation element of that housing growth plan when it when it comes around. Obviously, we can do it now and get credit for it. but it's it's something that is coming down the pike and and we're going to be participating probably with the region over the next two years in in that discussion. So, I I think there's just from a statutory standpoint, there's no immediate urgency for that, but I I commend Wayne in in being proactive about it. Well, I guess you know my sense was that I'm okay with having multifamily housing in multifamily housing developments where you know whether it be you know what we're talking about out there at Lynville Borders or Whispering Hills or whatever I don't know that I think it would be right to say that we're going to build a eight unit apartment out on Oaks Farms Road or something necessarily,
right? Me too. I feel
and the setting is
Yeah, we we choose, you know, where it is. that's what I would like to, you know, and I don't know why I think that. I just think that, you know, neighborhood looks like a neighborhood and it ought to be somewhat consistent. you know, Whispering Hills is tucked in all by itself. Nobody even knows it's there. And it's that's a that's a good thing for the town. But u even defining, you know, route six is the commercial corridor. You know, it's not all commercial. It's it's got a couple of different things along it there and and that sort of thing. But
and there's a lot of properties along Route Six are very challenged,
right?
Yeah.
Anyhow, that's that's kind of my thought on that. I don't know if that's right, wrong, or indifferent. But that's how I feel at this point. Always subject to change. Always subject to get smarter, but that's and I think that's a concern that a lot of people in town probably, you know, have about when when they talk about lowincome housing. They keep saying it's not low income housing, it's affordable housing for people. And there's still I actually ran the numbers on affordable housing and you're talking rents in neighborhood of $2,600. I I I think John came up with the same kind of number 80% of our median income or 30% of 80% of our median income. That sends up to like $2,600 a month for rent.
What's that? 135,000 or something like that.
That's in in Andover. And so it depends on Yeah, it depends on the specifics of the type of housing that's available. if it's an 830G, you'd use the lower of the town and the state. So that that number would be would be a little bit lower. If you did something inclusionary like Mark Brans was suggesting then you can use the town median which is you know the town is is more affluent than than the state as a as a whole. So yeah those numbers would be higher. I guess the other thought that I had as we were talking about Lindhol Corners was I would like whatever regulations we put in to allow affordable housing to be such that we limit it a little bit so that if somebody wants more they're kind of forced to go the 830G route which forces us to get a little affordable housing in the now because, you know, I think we need it and you know, I I don't think that's bad for the town in in a developmental capacity. So, it would be nice to have something out there in Corners that would make those guys create some affordable housing for us that got credit for, not just the right affordable housing that doesn't give us any credit. Well, that's a good point, Lane, because
$2,600 a month is not what many people would call affordable,
right? No.
When you hear affordable housing, I don't think a lot of people think that they're they'd be paying $2,600 a month. They're thinking like
twothirds of that. Yeah. Or half that, you know. So I mean there's a lot to study.
We're not the we're not the only town doing this, right?
Other towns have to face this, right?
Every town in the state.
Yeah. So they're they're in the same boat. Just wondering if there's some there's some way we could I don't know talk to each other.
Yeah. So I mean and and we can provide lots of examples of other communities and their different approaches. you know and again you know Colombia Colombia is doing it one way because they already have multif family allowed on their commercial district. you know other towns are doing it other ways. a number of communities. We we've developed sort of a fairly complicated template that uses some building design and some fairly high bars for things like landscaping and and site design that you know we can share and and if the commission likes that approach then we can we can just use that. There's there is no need to totally reinvent the wheel on this. There's lots and lots of examples. It's just, you know, I I would like some initial direction about, you know, the types of templates to to, you know, start with. I guess John, another question I have is is when we talk about the reduction in requirements for parking, you know, let's say you build one of these things on Route Six,
what what does it mean when we're have on street parking, you know?
Yeah. No. And and you wouldn't I mean the state, I'm sure, does not allow on street parking on Route Six. so yeah. No, I mean it really becomes it becomes it becomes an academic exercise because no no developer in their right mind is going to spend $25 million building a multif family building and not providing any parking for its tenants. Like that's it's ludicrous. It would not happen. But it's it's something to note. I think we should parking on town roads either. That's just me.
Yeah. Well, I agree with you, but we said this isn't this is only on the commercial. I mean, this ordinance. Yeah. The is on street parking with our little roads just isn't smart,
right? But that's that's a question for the selectman who I assume are the traffic authority in this case.
Yeah. well, that that brings something up. We're talking about this architectural and landscape requirements. I think that we should be a little proactive on that because you know the all the all those commercial properties are every our town that that stretch of our town is so small a lot of people don't even know they've been through. So if they see a whole bunch of, you know, multi-unit family houses and that's it and then they're out of our town. That's one of the things we have to balance. So we have to I think that it would be wise to go forward with that keeping that in mind that we have an architectural review board and or I mean that one of the things that came up is are we going
to need a housing authority because currently we do not have one. Was that one of the requirements too, John, that we have a housing authority by July 1st or certain population certain population
there? Oh, that was that was municipalities over I think 25,000 require a a fair a fair rent commission, not a housing authority.
Okay. Thank you.
But but either way it does either way it doesn't apply.
Okay. Thank you. The other thing I wanted to ask about was the architectural review board. oh no, I'm sorry. The WPCA currently we don't have a water commission because we don't have any sewers.
So does that stay the same? Is that or is that distributing that?
If if everyone is operating off of private systems, there's no need to have a water pollution control authority.
What about the is there a limit when that does apply? As soon as there's sewers and public water or
as soon as there sewers would really be the trigger because a public water supply would be managed by Connecticut Water or whoever the exclusive service provider is for Andover.
but yeah, I I I don't at this point and in the projectable future I don't think we need to worry about a WPCA.
Okay. Thank you. So if I mean so if the if the commission I mean you know this M Mr. Chairman it's up to you if if you would like me to work you know come up with some draft regulations or work principally with Wayne to come up with something for the commission to review you know at your next meeting. you know I'll I can pitch you something down the middle of the plate and if you want to beef it up or if you want to scale it back that's up to you. How about we just bring bring some
sample regulations from various towns for the commissioner to to look at?
Sure, that's easy.
Does that does that make sense to you guys?
Yeah.
Oh, that's how he that's probably how he's going to make
Oh, yeah. I mean, the wheels the wheels been invented some
goes to town for six towns. He knows exactly what he's doing on all this stuff.
Yep.
Well, did already give us an example? Yeah. Okay. But I'm sure
Brance has a Yeah, Brance has a template and we can share some other templates. Certainly.
Brance's template. I mean, it's it's nice and everything, but I'm not certain that that's what it'll look like. That was written by by the lawyers, wasn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Mark Brans will tell you that in his previous life, he was a planner, but yeah, it was written by a lawyer. some plain language is always better.
And then if we had to have at least one public hearing and that's what someone said, then that would address what Wayne was saying about involving the public,
right? But I I would like us to I guess it fall on me to do a better job getting the public out, getting notice out if it's required.
If it's required. Yeah. Well, a public a public hearing is absolutely required for this will this will be a text amendment to the regulation. So, you would absolutely need to have a public hearing, but it's I think Wayne is just talking about making some efforts to making sure that the public is aware and and engaged a little bit more than than they tend to be.
Oh, yeah. That that's a perfectly good idea. But I mean, I don't think there's anything that you're not doing now, right? You just wanted
Well, I just wanted I just put a a legal notice in the rivers that nobody
the POC survey that we put out. We had a little ad in the River East that did a better job on that. I think we had you know maybe some town email last that came out letting everybody know
and that's certainly a we could do. I guess I'm looking for the commission's blessing to maybe
we need some proposed rights basically.
Well, once we have something that Yeah,
I think John is right. Once we have something concrete
and then
we can ask for input
when we have the public hearing,
right?
And then do a better job of advertising and and promoting it.
Yeah. Okay, because this is a big step for an basic step,
you know, and then but it's also going to apply to mixed use zones.
Oh, we don't have zones.
It it is it's the same thing. Yeah, basically
Route 6 corridor at the moment. And you know, we have a lot of residential still on Route Six. so
I mean, I'm on some of the, you know, the town websites, but they're not town endorsed. You know, they're Andover citizen this and and over support network that. I mean, I could put something just factual on there just saying yes, there's a public hearing. This is what public hearing,
right? Once the public hearings once we have something in public hearing was set. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Get the word out and maybe we maybe we move the venue to the auditorium over there or something. That's all I got. Sounds like a plan. We'll let the planner plan. Any other comments, discussion on that? So, at this point, I guess we'll hold off an actual subcommittee, but if if it comes to that, I'll be looking for volunteers or you actually I point you.
Okay.
Yeah. And I'm not opposed to it. And I missed the beginning of the discussion. I was just thinking that's why I asked about exactly what the charge of the a subcommittee would be is you know sometimes they can create and the time it takes you to form a committee and then set a schedule sometimes whether it's you know this commissioner the board of selectman in my opinion a lot of times somebody could just do it whatever commission you're talking about could have just done it
I tend to agree but a horse by committee is a camel So,
All right. I guess we can move on to item 12, administrative reports.
Okay. I've actually been working this week on zoning and boy enforcement. I have a list here of one, two, three, six, eight locations. letters that are going out. These are basically preliminary letters, not notices of violation, just u make contact and discuss the situations that apparent that appear to exist.
Are you going to make that available to us?
Yes. Once the letters are Yeah, I'll I'll let you guys have copies of them. at the probably at the next meeting. And u two were zoning violations. can't make somebody finish the house they started building.
You haven't figured out a way to do that yet?
No, I I don't sign. I don't see anything. I don't see any way of doing that.
Wasn't the certificate of occupancy do that?
Yeah. Was there any I mean
it's the building official? Yeah. I mean it's Was there a CEO issue?
No, there's no CO house is still
I know what the downstairs Okay.
Is there a CO on house? No. On Center Street. No. Handy. Handy. Oh, that one with the Yeah, there's a CO because you can live in a house you're renovating. I I guess that that's how that works. 25 years later apparently. Huh. So I I was thinking I was thinking on Center Street. It's been at kind of a standstill for quite a while now. But but I'll you know I'll give you what what what I write to them and you know I don't I don't just send them letters. I call I talk to them before I you know just to let them know that this is coming. That's really all I have.
Thank you Wayne. Good to see you're sticking with it. I it's
big thing for Inland Wetlands is you we've got the application in to redo the Bola Bridge Lake Road culver and as of the last meeting we sh
now you know it's like was we didn't have a wetlands agent you know they have these big project. It' be nice to have a wetlands agent review. and so maybe unrelated to that, we probably kicked the can down the road by deciding to schedule a public hearing that and so that bought us a little more time before we have to act on it. But so we'll be doing a public hearing in our next meeting coming up in June on that. And I hope I can it's it's I'm I try to stay in my lane. Let me let me start out with that. I try to stay in my lane. So I conversations with Matt about scheduling a interview and interview of candidates. I use the word again, make that plural, but it seems to me it's or it seems like it's a lot harder than it needs to be. I'll just leave it at that.
I guess we don't have an Egyptian.
How many applications did you have? There was one and one other person that was interested, right? I told
but didn't apply.
Yeah. But it's just common knowledge,
right? There may be common knowledge, but without an application can't can't move on it. Can't move on that person. So John told you John told that the Columbia person was interested in doing web
and yeah I think she talked I think she talked about
I I don't want to discuss individuals in public form just prior to them being interviewed for position with the town. Okay, I just want to say that I am trying to move it and I've had limited success.
Well said.
Yep.
Okay. John, you're up.
Okay. well, so earlier in the month, Wayne and I had a discussion with the folks from Linhome Corners, the the potential developers, and kind of went through the the their their concepts of what they wanted to do and the and the current regulations. pointed out some areas that would need to be tweaked if they were going to pursue this as sort of that mixeduse overlay. and I think, you know, if they wanted to go that route, they could submit their you know, their concept plan and some proposed zoning regulation changes essentially at the same time. That would be sort of mutually enabling. but sort of gave them homework to to go back and try to figure it out. and and they'll be back with us hopefully sooner than later. and beyond that, relative to housing growth and the the required statutory plans that are coming down the pike, I have been invited as Andover's
consulting planner to participate in a CROG CROG meaning our our council of governments, capital region council of governments housing growth technical advisory group that's made up, it appears of most of the planners in the Crag region. the first meeting of that group is next Thursday the 28th. if Wayne or someone else is interested in in also representing the town, we can we can reach out to Craig and see I'll be there representing both and over and Colombia. so that's that's upcoming next week. Sounds good. All
I'll make a motion to approve the April 21st minutes as presented. I'll
second. all in favor
just sorry one little thing I forgot discussion
I think it's I think it's was under number two I think there's just one misspelling it's I think it's supposed to say heating and it says heaving very good. You like anybody like to make a motion? Do you want that amended?
As amended. Yeah. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes as amended. A second. All in favor?
I I
motion passes 500.
Is he allowed to vote? He's already he doesn't have to get sworn in. Right.
Well, he has to get probably sworn in as a regular member. Sworn in as an older Yeah. Seated and seated. Correct. Okay. Don't forget to get sworn in, Jay. Just before I forget.
You got it. Yeah. I'll be in I'll be there in person next month. Are you going to notify the town clerk?
Yeah. Do I go see you, Wayne, or do I go to the clerk?
Town clerk. Yeah.
Town clerk. All right. Patrick, do you know who that is?
Nope. second. All in favor I motion passes.
Thank you Jay. Motion passes 500 Z.