Oh, sorry. kept the down in the applicant. I think probably a fair amount of support for you doing what you want to do, but I also understand that it is and so take a look. I know we we got to where we are tonight because we might not have been as happy as we could have been in which round to do it. And so we're on a bit of a clock to get this in the dome. I think we can. but it's not going to be the lack of Brian. There are a few Did you get the comments that he had on your Okay. So, there are are a fair number of comments applications. Some of them are pretty easy to fix. Some of them
not so much. Why don't you tell us what you're asking? Well, basically what I'm looking to do is slow. I guess we're getting the guys hopefully they can hear me. Basically, we're looking to have events at the farm. comedy shows I some you say concerts you think of big you know orchestration but it's you know small bands karaoke nights just to bring some entertainment into the farm and hopefully eventually make some money you know the last you know we did run them last year because I didn't know you know that there would be ordeals permits and stuff and you know
basically I lost money on every single But, I think it was still good for the community. I think everyone that came down was very impressed with the layout of the, farm and and and some people don't even know the farm's there. people come in like, how do you know this was down here? And I've done a lot of work to the farm since I've purchased it. And, you know, as we all know, less and less people are buying Christmas trees as the cost of the Christmas trees have gone up. So obviously so I need to offset that hopefully and be able to keep you know the properties and the businesses private. So again you know I've been looking also I've been I've always tried since I owned it to try to get the farmers market here because I thought the venue that they had that was you know would been better served on a bigger property. So that was something I jumped into try to jump into this year. it didn't pan out because I think I started a little late. Didn't get enough vendors to buy in. But hopefully I'm not I'm not giving up on that. Hopefully that's something we can do in the future. I think Andover is a farming town. It would be nice to have a a
farmers market in Andover. but again, you know, a lot of this stuff takes it takes a lot of work. as you know, John's helping me out, you Wayne's helped me out, with the with the procedures cuz I'm not used to, you know, procedures, permits, you know, I, you know, even when I bought the farm, you know, Bob gave you some instructions and and it was basically Bob do whatever you want until someone told Bob not to do it. you know, and I didn't know that a permits would be or needed for something on the farm that was, you know, pretty off the road and interfering with limited people. I I've always reached out to the neighbors and asked if there was concerns or anything like that. So, basically, we're just trying to bring some, you know, usable entertainment to the to the farm.
you know, as future goes, I I'd love to possibly have weddings there. you know, stuff like stuff like that. Just making it more of a a venue. But yes, I'm not, you know, when you asked me to write the per the these regulations, I was dumbfounded. I was like, that's not my forte. I got you. It's basically not mine either. That's why you know I did watch and it's hard but it it is hard. I understand that certainly what what John's got posted up there. You know we talk about agricultural accessory uses and that's to pick your own events and you add strawberries I guess. I don't know what you have cut your own trees. So that's probably you know what what you got there. The non-aggriculture accessory uses are probably where we get, you know, the questions coming up and we'll we'll get to that. There's a couple of little use site plan review and special permit here a little bit interchangeably a few different things. Got to you get that straightened out. Got a couple of subsections in in that general you down there. John scrolls down a little bit. at right there where it says subsections 283 and 284 of this section. I don't think we have any 283 and 284, so I don't know what what those are. yeah, it was my understanding when I was putting these together that there
would be back and forth. So, I didn't want to go fullbore into it because I wanted to have more give and take. for instance, I didn't want to say shut off at 9:30 or shut off at night. That would be something that we would want to more have more of a discussion on. And and again, me not fully writing this myself, kind of having intel from you guys as well. Thank my comment. I I think it's important to point out that these regulations don't just apply to you in your operation. They would apply townwide. for instance, if a restaurant town wanted to have outdoor entertainment, I believe these regulations would apply. I'm not sure because this is specifically listed as agro tourism or agro business. It does talk about the industrial business. Yeah. believe the the question I had and well I know we're going to focus very heavily on on where you want to go Ryan because that's the way it is but if Herspar wanted to to do something this would be the regulation that they would have to follow one of the questions that Wayne
and I had talked about a little bit is you're in an industrial zone first farm's in a a residential zone do we want this to apply to a residential zone or is this limited to an industrial zone? I think it needs to be residential zone 2. That's where most of the farms are. So, we're looking at something that would be applicable to anybody who's out there doing the farm business. we can get there. That that'll that'll work. the I guess at this point, do any commission members have any specific questions of Ryan before we go to get some input from the public on
what they think about this? I I think it's a great idea. Farmers market are always profitable. Every time has them, you know. I think we got a lot of cottage and commentary. We offload some of those folks there. some make sure you're trying to talk up for the microphone. Can y'all hear me online? Are you okay? Yeah. And and you know, weddings too. I mean, you're trying to keep the business alive, keep it going, right? I mean, who has the right to do so? And you got to get creative. So, I think weddings are are great locally, especially folks that want to stay in the town and little concerts, live concerts are always great, you know. so I think it's going to be good for the town as far as growth wise. So, one of one of the things that that I don't have an answer to, don't know if it even is applicable to us in the planning and zoning is at some point a tag sale is no longer a tag sale. It's a store. When we have these little events, at some point they're no longer little events. It's a business. You know, a wedding is a business.
I don't know how to capture that transition. Maybe it's not even important. Maybe that's somebody else will come get the taxes from you that you're breaking in on all these events. I don't know. But but at some point we're not into the little tag sale kind of things. It's bigger than that and it's got to have a bigger expectation with the facilities and all that. So that's one of the things that I was thinking about as we, you know, go through this. Well, can can I ask a question? What do you want to do? What do you see see this? What I see I see it just basically the farmers market basically what I laid out the farmers markets the you know I do I like to have events again I can't do it every weekend every I like to do it twice a month you want this to be a business that goes into something that's a bunch going to get taxed or is it something Oh yeah. Well I get taxed anyways because I I own businesses all my businesses you know I have three businesses so they're all going to get taxed. on the income that I bring in. Yeah. but yeah, you know, that's the the end goal would be to make some money, but again, as most of my people know, most things I do, I break even on or lose. but it's it's about, you know, for this, it's about providing something. I I think it's it's a great venue to just to have people come together. There's not many things that go on in this town,
in this town. It'd be nice nice thing to have and I have a nice bag for it. You know what I mean? Any other questions or comments with Andreas? Yeah, I'm just trying to tie the tie it together, Chad, as as to what your concerns are and what he wants to do with that answer. Other commission members have questions or John John could you put up something that Ryan had written up that the events that he was going to have. Is that possible? I don't know if I have that. It's on the town's website. Oh, okay. Hang on. yeah, give me a moment. You're looking for his essentially his narrative. Yeah. page looking for that. Any other commission have questions? You think I I feel the same way you do, Jed, about this whole thing that the farming are easy. It's the non-farmming uses. Is it the Sorry. Is it the the the event schedule that you're talking about? Yeah. Okay. All right. Hang on. We will we'll give everybody a chance. If I forget, just let me know. Put that little flag up again. I'm saying is most of this is non-farm related. So that's that's why this is going to it's going to take more time going over those uses. I like I like what was written what John wrote or and did Branch go over that Jed? Jed I'm sorry I muted you guys on the on the town side so someone's gonna have to hit unmute on the on the laptop.
Okay. All right. You're good. Yeah, we can hear you now. Mark Grant has not looked through the list of events. He has seen a copy of the proposed regulations. He has provided some comments on that. and it's too early really. Yeah, it's kind of on the preliminary side the but if if there's any any questions here question I'm saying I think it's a good idea. I know my high school reunion was at the Salem herb farm the herb farm down there in Salem. made it into a place for a vending mostly outside but it had a roof over one side of the old part of it and it was a really neat
thing and that's the kind of thing I could see being done here. Okay, gotcha. Yep. I'm going to go Kevin Arnerson any anything with you before we move on here? No, I think I have a pretty clear understanding of what they're looking to do. I definitely support the ideas, but like you said, and like Scott said, we just have to be careful with how we approach it. I also understand certain things where in the farm, you know, everyone's trying to make it and in the farming world it can be a bit tough right now. so I understand looking for other avenues as well. Say again, Scott. Did everybody read the regulation? I went over it. I found some spelling things and some things that needed to be changed in there. Yeah. and Wayne that
he can go over with with Brian later on. We'll we'll take care of that. I just you what I really want to get tonight is a sense of you know we got a lot of people from the public here and I want to get a chance to hear what they've got to say and and then we'll start working on it with with their input in mind. Chad, I put my comment in the chat. I don't know if you saw it but like wineries and some breweries are considered agurism and they have music and vendor fairs things like that all the time. So I don't know how this would compare. So if you can I provide a little clarification? Yes. Go ahead John. So yeah, so for the record, John Guskowski, consulting
town planner. I did I, you know, I'd helped, Ryan a little bit with the initial language and and yes, so some of these some of the references to, you know, section 2A3 or whatever would have to be adjusted to fit this in the right place in the regulations, but broadly speaking, this is intended to do sort of to the two separate things that you described, Jed. it it intended to because the town did not have any kind of regulation really at all for events or activities that took place on a farm that involved some public interface. And so the idea was to not only define that but regulate it in a sort of a two-tier
system. The the lowest tier being things that are clearly agriculturally related like obviously pick your own operations you know that which is you know the Christmas tree farm and things like that. which is you know different from the actual cultivation of whatever is being cultivated on the farm. and then the other tier would be those events that were just being described that are that are not really agriculturally related but use the atmosphere and the and the setting of the of the farm as a lovely event space. So you know weddings that that you know reunions, events, things like that are not strictly agriculturally related but obviously promote public activity and tourism and gathering and things like that. And obviously because that has the the whole point of this regulatory process is to identify and mitigate you know potential conflicts or potential concerns. And those are standard things, traffic, noise, odor, you know, neighbor impacts, and and those sorts of things. And so because the the non strict farming activities do have the highest potential for some, you know, negative externalities as far as neighbors are concerned, that would be a special permit. And so, you know, what Ryan is sort of doing is submitting not only a text amendment that would be applicable to any agricultural property in town, but also proposing his personal slate of activities for Fitch Family Farms. And and so it's there's there's really two issues going on here. One is the regulation and one is Ryan's slate of activities. and and the commission should do what they can to keep those things separate. Yep. Thanks, John. John, can can I ask a question? I'm sorry. Who's that? Who is asking? Wayne. Oh, hey. Yeah, sure. on a egg
related events, you said you spoke about pick your own like pick your own Christmas trees, pick your own strawberries. Are are we really interested in rel in regulating that activity or something along the lines of having Santa Claus visit the farm while trees are being picked and you know driving people around on a sleigh or something like that or well I think yeah the answer is the answer is we want to deal with both at but but the question is at what level of view because again you know agriculture growing trees is I think is really what all all the town talks about in terms of agriculture growing trees you know chopping hay growing corn that sort of thing that that is in essentially an activity that does not engage with the public when you're inviting the public that's what that's what land use regulations is about is to determine the the level of you know activity and potential for, you know, public health, safety, and welfare concerns. And so when you're bringing the public, even if they're just, you know, cutting down their own Christmas tree, not seeing Santa Claus or taking a sleigh ride or something like that, there's still traffic generated and potential for noise, but that's that's a fairly low standard. And so what's being proposed in this regulation is those strictly agricultural activities like pick your own tree or you know pick your own strawberries or whatever is just a straight permit from from you as zoning officer that you can just sign off because that's that's allowed. But, you
know, as you ramp up and and you know, there's going to be some of these things that are grayer and you probably put your finger on one of them that, you know, it's a pick your own, but there's this enhanced feature. You can talk to Santa, you can go on a sleigh ride or something like that. that I think you know the the question that the commission needs to ask itself when setting up these rules is at what level does the the the amount of public interface and in public activity on the site constitute something that the commission would want to look at with a little bit more scrutiny. So, I I think it all needs to be regulated at some level, but it's just a question of, "Yeah, go ahead. We'll sign off. You can do this as a right versus no, we really need to come you have you bring you in and have the neighbors comment because there's opportunity for, you know, significant disruption." So, it, you know, the example you site is probably a little bit of a gray area, but I do think we need to clarify what the town's
position is. And, you know, when you say, "Are we asking for this?" You know, it's it's not up to me. It's up to the commission. Exactly. Okay. And I think we can come through that fairly easily. I think it's going to be at the higher end of the non-aggricultural uses that we struggle a little bit. so that's all we'll say about that point. I am going to go through the guest attendees we have online first before we go around the room here. And the first up on my list is Aaron Hbert. you got any comments? Aaron? yes I do. So I'm gonna try to keep this very brief and quick. when I saw this online, I I actually called a
number for Fitch Farm. And I think I spoke to Ryan who said he had only done one or two events. which coincides with the weekends that I've spent on Bear Swamp on my back porch trying to enjoy the solace of the seven acres and and thinking there was a band playing right on my back porch. and it takes me about 25 minutes to walk down to where the bridge is being rebuilt or the the old sand pits through the woods. I can't imagine that sound traveling that far if it was not cranked up. I don't begrudge anybody any type of anything for the community. I I I applaud Ryan. I I hope this works out for him. but from what was explained to me was that he only did one or two events to try this out and basically the town told him this is the verbatim the conversation we had on the phone. that what he was doing this this is the permit that he's applying for that he needs to do what he's doing now or what he tried to do with a few events. that being said, my question is, does this open up the door to you know, 500 people at a concert that goes on till 9, 10, 11:00 at night? Does it does it regulate the days of the week? or is the town just going to Are there going to be are you guys able to write in specific clauses specific to his permit and other people's permits, or is it just a blanket where the town says, "Well, it's approved. there's nothing we can do and we're stuck for five or six days a week listening to,
you know, somebody that sounds like they're right on our back porch. In other words, how can I how can I word this? Did I lose you? I I got the I see what's there. I'm I'm a novice, so you guys kind of got to break this down to me. I understand there's a lot of stuff written and a lot of stuff is going to explain, but I don't really understand all the verbiage and all the I guess basically I don't want to see this. he's applying for what he's saying is just well that's not going to happen. I can promise you that. Is it going to be in writing is my question. So other than that I wish him all the success in the world. it's and again like the one thing I would disagree with is that he said he reached out to neighbors. I don't know if he reached out to pe people directly next to him but as far as everybody up and down Bear Swamp who has heard this on their back porches or in their backyards. nobody reached out to them. Yeah. Thank you. Want to talk here tonight. Let me address a couple of your specifics there in the does have hours that are allowed. Those are proposed by, you know, Ryan. I
don't know that that's, you know, what will be agreed to or whatever. That's a commission decision that we're not going to get into tonight, but it is specified in there. there's there's a couple of things that are written in there that I'm not sure that the st the the standard is pretty severe in what we've got drafted here in in the general requirements. Such uses or events shall not create a nuisance by noise, vent frequency, odors, trash traffic, and are contained in the parcels. That's a pretty high standard to meet. I don't know that anybody can meet that one, but you know, obviously, you might think that there's a nuisance there. Okay. No, no, no. So, again, this is the first time I'm seeing a lot of this and maybe I just didn't do my research, so this gives me some comfort. So, sorry. Go ahead. that I will point out here is that and I can't find it. So I'll just What are you looking for, Jed? Under standards, it's sub paragraph C and it says commission satisfaction that sound can be attenuated to a level not higher than background noise at the property boundary. I I don't know what that means to you, Ryan. I know what it means to me. And so they're they're your words. You present it to the commission. How how do
you how do you deal with something like that? I thought there was a decimal reading that I think we I thought that we mentioned prior to you're talking on the laundry line. I Yes. You have boundary line with your neighbors. Oh, background noise. I mean, that's kind of vague. What's What's background noise? Kind of vague and kind of low because, you know, if you're on route six, background noise is higher. Pretty loud, louder than a music problem. So, anyhow, that's it. I just point out that and so again for Eric's benefit, the benefit of anybody else that might be here, what we do is we draft the regulation that has a lot of requirements for different things in it. And then the case of any of these events that we're talking about of a non-aggricultural nature, any applicant, Ryan, Hurst Farm, whatever, would have to come back to us with a special permit that we would go through to look at the exact specifics with his site. What he's going to do to attenuate the sound at the boundaries could be landscaping. There could be all kinds of different
things. But how are we going to make these regulations work to protect his neighbors? So, and that would be that's you know, right now we're looking at starting that process next month. So, you interested in that. But that's that's where we're headed that to go and then that would in addition to this being approved by the commission that special permit to do any of those other things would be approved by the commission. And those would be the specifics that we would enforce on on the F family front. I'm going to move down to Jennifer Bird Death. Hi. Can you hear me? Okay, great. Hi. I live on 154 Bear Swamp Road, which is not not directly across from the farm. just a little bit down
the street. and I I love the concept of the agricultural events, of course. I think that's fabulous for our town. And I do agree that we need to be very, very careful when we are putting things into our plan, whether it's agriculture or the non-aggricultural, because we'll start setting precedents even when we approve permits. And also as a family who has a business in town in a in a business zone, I realize also this could apply to to my family's business. And I when I look over what was put up briefly, it does not state an acreage requirement for business. I believe it was business and industrial zones. It just said sufficient space. So technically you're you're you are we are opening things up. We're opening things up to a
little bit more. From what I read, that literally means, hey, you could have a concert at Andover Landscaping. You know, you could have a massive concert there as long as there's enough people to park or it's a potential, you know, for the permit. And there are are other farms in town in other areas that of course that would open it up for too. you know, there's some large properties around us. And I I do support Erin in the fact that some of the although I'm a huge music and concert lover myself, some of the the events that have already gone on have been significantly loud. And though I don't think anyone cares if it's occasional or random, I am very very concerned that potentially, just potentially, it has to be written in well that we start giving permits for the non-aggricultural and suddenly all of us on Bear Swamp Road on, you know, on the Bunker Hill side of the street in our backyards are having concerts until 900 p.m. on the weekend weekdays. And what was it? I believe 12 I forgot the time on the the week nights. Maybe it was 10:00. I'm that's that would be my only concern would be the special events and and as a horse owner, I'm concerned about fireworks in my backyard also. And I'm not sure how fireworks would work into the special permits. So if they would start having massive fireworks shows or otherwise. just a just a cons just a thought about that. I think I think a few people have mentioned that already speaking that we definitely need to be very careful regarding setting a precedent
for the special permits and it and they're kind of vague. The requirements to receive the special permit are a little bit vague. So maybe they could just be finessed and worked on a little bit. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Jennifer. phone number there. Yeah, I think the phone number is Leanne. So, I think that's everybody online. Obviously, we got a lot of people here tonight. I would like to keep the comments as brief as we can. We'll start right down with you if you can state your name. Hi, Jed. It's Elaine Bookart. I'm online. See you there, Elaine. Hi. yeah, I
just I I just wanted to pipe in. I mean, as chairman of the Economic Development Commission, we're we're all for Ryan succeeding. And, you know, we we would love to see something like this working out for, you know, I don't see every other night every night concert. Maybe the the occasional concerts, weekend concerts, something like that. Certainly the farmers market. he's had, you know, like the funky monkey, the vendors and all that kind of stuff are great. Those are great things to have and we certainly want to encourage that to happen. So, we wouldn't want to, you know, squash it. I mean, I do understand the noise and it's kind of interesting. I don't think anybody really realized how close Beer Swamp was to Ryan's property and that they were listening to the bands. It was like, "Wow, we just looked at a map and that was like, oh, that's interesting." you know, but we're just trying to now put a lot of thought into it so that and it will be rules that everyone has to follow in town. So, that's why we're trying to get something boilerplate, but certainly whenever you do a permit process, there's going to be some customization based on what's being requested. but we're definitely all for it and and certainly, you know, hope this comes to be. Thanks, Thanks Ela. Thank you. Now we start the course. Any can I interject a 10-second thought? I know I already had a chance to talk, but can I give you 10 seconds of your time? no. And when everybody hasn't gone home because we're into tomorrow, got to get to the people now. Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying to get to the guy
in the corner. Yeah, I'm I'm his neighbor. Probably have more land areaing ordering him than anyone else. But music I can hear it, but I have woods between me. I suggested to him today if anyone complains, just put a barrier behind where they're playing the music and on the side where they're playing the music and it'll block a lot of it out. I I I've never bed before 10:00. I really have to listen to hear the music coming through my windows of air conditioning in the summer. I'm not really worried about what's going on down there. I really am not at all. address name and address for the record. The address is 405 room 6. I'm right behind behind their yellow house and I have 20 some acres there. What's your name? And I'm very happy with What's your name? I'm sorry I don't know you. We need your name. You want me to put you in the record? Sure. Edward. Okay. Thank you, Edward. Next. I'll speak on behalf of myself. My wife and I both own over and over. So we have business in town. We do also we're 415 group six. my personal feeling is the noise that is coming
from Ryan's farm is something that we enjoy. We can go down and enjoy it. I think the selection of music he has picked typically has been pretty mellow, pretty chill. I'm one of the musicians that performed at his place. So I I know that the the noise has always been a concern. And the other thing I would recommend is knowing the number of venues that are like-minded like this to give Brian an opportunity to make make an investment. he's already made an investment in a small stage area and for him to make additional investments in like sound barriers and such like that. you can certainly look at places like the farm on Carter Hill and Marboro. They've got a full music venue. They do v they have a farm. They do weddings. So there's lots of people who are doing this and
capitalizing on a way to make a property more, you know, attractive to come and visit as well as generating revenue from town. So I think it'd be a fantastic addition to our town. Okay. Thank you, Wendy. You're all done. Did it? I'll just add really quick. So, yeah, Wendy Cup and we wrote over and over and we've been doing a artisan fair for a couple years now and it's growing and it's been amazing and a really great contribution I believe to the community and Ryan and his entire family have been great collaborators. They're partners, they're friends of ours. We have just had a really amazing go of like this relationship. And even on the other side of it, I've been to his shows. I've been to the comedians. This is it brings people together and they're act they're having an amazing time and it's just chill and a wonderful use of space and I really hope that this does come to fruition. Okay. Thank you, Bob. If you don't mind, I'm going to stand up for this so everybody can hear me. Bob Gamberger, 101 Shotty Milro. a couple of different things I want to say about this. First we looked at the distinction has been made between agricultural and non-aggricultural activities. The agricultural activities because it's a farm we call this something as of right or by right because it's a farm you can do
agricultural things and that's one side of it and I think that's the easy side of it. the other side of it, the non-aggricultural things. If you look at his schedule of activities for this year, for example, there are nine things. There's live music, there's karaoke, and there's comedians. And these all fall under one umbrella, which is entertainment. And I would hope that if we go ahead and pass these requirements that when he goes to the to you guys to get a special permit that it can be one special permit for all nine events under that umbrella of entertainment on the property. So that's just that's one suggestion. as far as what the purpose is of these rules for those of you who don't know I once was on this commission. In fact I chaired the the planning and zoning commission before Jed. my vision of how this commission should work is that we should be facilitators. We should be coming up with the rules and regulations that help people do the things that they want to do. Some people speak from a different perspective, which is that they're looking at ways of avoiding problems of avoiding liabilities. And this is all important stuff, but I think as
volunteers that serve the town, we should be looking to try to enhance what the town does, not to be obstacles to it. So that's kind of my philosophy and how I approach all this and I hope you guys will get it at it the same way. To echo what Wendy has said, these events, I went to some of them last year. They bring people together. They really are a wonderful thing that this town hasn't had in the past. And you know, people talk about worrying about the size. Frankly, I've been to Fourth of July parties that have been bigger than his events. In fact, I've been to Fourth of July parties at your house that have
been bigger. people talk about, well, what if 500 people show up? We can't get 500 people to vote on the budget in this town. Okay? You know, if we if he gets 50 or 70 people to show up, that's a big turnout. And and quite frankly, if he wasn't charging, you know, to try to pay back the bans, I don't think we would be discussing this because it wouldn't be a commercial endeavor. So, I'm all for it. I I' I'd like to find solutions rather than find impediments. And that's it. Okay. Hi, my name is Terra Fitch. I live at 98. Yes. My name is Tara Fitch. 98 Shotty Mil Road in Andover. Anyway, I'm in support of it. I mean, obviously Ryan's my husband, but we live in town. We have kids who went through the school system. We have been to the events and honestly they're pretty lowkey but it's nice. Families are there, couples in town are there. They mingle. They meet
people in town. They make connections professionally, socially, however it is. And just a nice environment. It would benefit the farm itself. I think it benefited the community in a lot of ways. We do recognize, you know, that some of the close proximity neighbors, you know, noise plan and things like that, but one time Ryan had the decimal thing to make sure that it didn't go above a certain number, otherwise he would have addressed it. So, I think that a lot of the problems could be mitigated and I think it's a nice thing. I'm in support of that. Okay. Thank you. I don't have anything to say. I'm in support. I'm also in support of what the realer probably doesn't have anything. I can speak for hi Li Manula from 177 Chieville Road. I just want to say from like a public health perspective, one of the like the main things that people need to live a happy life is community. And that's what's Ryan that's what Ryan's bringing.
And people come together at these events. We all do. And they're really good. I mean, most of them we could we went to every single one pretty much. And they're like wrapped up by 10 pretty much. No noise was not bad. And my dad's a business owner and he's constantly trying to expand on what he has. So I only I hope the best for you. You have anything to add? Yeah. I'm Logan Kennis 177 Road and I brought all my friends with me because we all go to pitches concerts and they're always so fun. You know, we bring some food
down there and hang out and see some live music or some comedy and it's always a great time to like see everybody from high school and everyone in town and just like make new friends as well. 16th and you know I've done a couple of the events there and like everybody has been saying they are lucky and really it's not disruptive. I think it's a kind of a good thing for our community we should foster all Kevinis 170 Shannon Mill Road. I'm Logan's father. I brought Logan today. he actually wanted to come and it was a good way to kind of show the public that this is a family oriented thing and we as a family have gone to a lot of these things and we're able to bond together and meet other people from town and it's a it's a good way for everybody to come together and meet new people and meet the people from town and enjoy some live m acoustic music that's not very loud at all. and it it's just fantastic and I'm all for it. So, that's why I'm here. Okay. Scott Warren, Bunker Hill Road. I'll speak to one. I also have a firm and it can be a pathetic life where you don't make any money. It's not funny. And you need to do what you can legally to make some money off your land that you own. Well, most time the bank owns it. Maybe when you get old enough, you can own. Now, positive side, what he's doing there is great. It reminds me of some
things that used to happen in this town that don't really happen anymore. And he's never going to make much money doing it. He's not He is doing it for some money, but it's more like, oh, maybe I made $50 tonight and it was a great time. And it's a great time for everyone. I bring my son there. Last year he was eight months. And you know, there's teenagers, young adults, old people. You know, it's great. And they also understand that yes, there are there's always going to be negative. And maybe it's a little loud sometimes. And they can probably work on that, but
you're also One thing's guaranteed in life. You're never going to please everybody. There's always going to be somebody that has a has a problem. So, just take that into consideration. Okay. Thank you. Next. Biola. Route 6 425 Route 6. Ryan's right behind me. we have had discussion before. I called a few times about the noise being too loud and been been a nice guy about it, but it's definitely a different experience if you're going to a concert versus you want to be so quiet. So, I'm coming from that perspective of why I'm teaching quiet. I you know I hope the very best for Ryan and I we we talked about agricultural things like the farmers market and I'm you know I think that's exciting but you know three hours of music you know when it's loud it could be pretty intense for me trying to look for peace again if you're going to concert you want to have a good time you want to loosen up yeah it's a totally different
spirit so I think you have to consider that side of it as well. if there was a way maybe to use that big building, maybe could have, you know, because I'm picturing parties. Well, are we talking about parties? They want music outside. Do we want, you know, do we want to have big, you know, big speakers and stuff outside? Maybe you can move it in a building. you know, you're building that might, you know, that might go a long way as far as keeping because my only complaint is the noise. Really? So, okay. Thank you. Okay, Erin, now you can have your 10 seconds back.
Thank you so much. sorry about interrupting earlier. I just I didn't know how many people were in the room. So, I'm wondering again because I'm not opposed to this. and I think when people say it might be 30 seconds, give me a second. When people say, I like the music selection or I live right behind him and I enjoy it. It's all subjective. Again, this gentleman that just spoke kind of, reiterated that. Is there a way to grant his permit and let's give it a trial run for a year? Give him the the blanket permit for one year and if it doesn't work out or one event's a nightmare, we have to deal with nine more, but then you do it event by event the following year. Is there a way for him to start generating money now and we can give this a a trial run? He has expressed to me over the phone that if it's an issue, call me directly, man, and we'll we'll crank it down. So, I'm not opposed to I want this man to succeed. I'm just concerned, like I said, the way it's written that we don't end up with there's no restriction on it and we don't end up with five nights a week, you know, blaring music. So, that that's my my two cents. So, is there anything the town can do for him is the flip side to kick it off like get it get it going and and let's give it a trial
run. Thank you. Well, actually, you know, the town is giving it a trial run. If if we weren't in favor of what he was wanting to do, he wouldn't be doing it right now because not reg. So, got Okay. And I hope to work with him, keep it that way while we go wrestle with there's probably a couple of sticky points in here that we've got to get through. but yes, I think everybody on the commission wants to see Brian succeed. We just need to acknowledge the concerns of a couple of the neighbors. And I think there are ways to deal with those that can have that win-win answer out there that everybody's always looking for. So, I'm confident that we can do that. We can put the we we can make the regulation on a trial basis. nice. Okay. People aren't aware and we haven't been very good at following it, but every home occupation is is by regulation subject to a 90-day review. We haven't done many of those, but we could. And I do think that we would end up putting a similar kind of stipulation in whatever we do here, whether it's in his special permit when he gets to that or in the regulation. But it's clear that there's a lot of people like what he's trying to do. and I thank everybody from the public for for coming out tonight. the Jed, this is Katherine Hutchinson. You didn't call on me when you were asking
for input from those people who were online, so I would like a chance to speak when appropriate. Probably here for other reasons, but go ahead, Catherine. Now, I just wanted to express my concern over the noise level. It is a problem. I live on Bunker Hill Road for those of you who don't know me and it is a it's loud and I just joined in the sentiment to the people who live on Bear Swamp Road about the noise and hopefully the commission if it is seeking to approve any part of this that that noise the decibel level be addressed in all seriousness. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Katherine. I apologize for skipping over you when I was you on the list there. So I think we're we're getting to the adjourn the public hearing tonight until the next meeting so we can a set of revised regulations and John get together to go with and do some of these things. we about noise that I haven't seen in regulation and I've got out and if we're after dark we have some pretty requirements lighting and I think lighting is something that o a good answer. Can you hear it breaking up again? No. Jet. Jet. Yeah. Your last your last minute or so of dialogue was a little Okay. here. do you know when the concerts end farm in Carter Hill? just looking it up. You just so you know and you know
through the permitting process out there noise was a concern. And you know, this farm is is bigger. The the one that was in the newspaper just last summer, they had a big beautiful barn that they would also point out that on Hill Farm, you they got one concert listed on schedule. the place that was, you know, written up in the paper had one concert listed. How much of an inconven would it be to end your events by nine? That lets us wait the lighting issue waits I think it provides the people while we're working on it to impress. I'd have to think about that. I mean most people got to six. I mean Saturday. Yeah. So I I'm gonna ask you to consider that I can talk about maybe 9:30. I think that's you know maybe more list. I don't didn't put the I didn't put the time in like I told Wayne today that I want to discuss that with I restrain hey we have to be done whatever it would be nice as a matter of faith working it together could wrap up about 9:00 I think that's a better answer personally we're not we're not deliberating the the the application but you know I I personally 9:00 with better numbers. But the nice thing about the farm just I think is when it's dark all the lights the solar lights that we have the lights are on the stage and during the summer it's not dark enough
that I mean that's part of the little atmosphere that we have. I do have lighting. The big commercial building that we have has pretty pretty bright lights. Well, look at that. That's one of the things that concern me is safety of the people walking around. Again, we're trying to have an event and most event who the bar at Carter Hill they're selling alcohol making money. Well, I don't know where one more thing on the subject of sound. I'm an electrical engineer. I have some experience with acoustic design. In fact, I had a lot of conversations about the acoustic panels that are in here now with Eric over the last couple of years. I would be happy to throw my hat in the ring, go around town during one of these events with a sound pressure level meter, sit on your porch or in your living room, and just to try to get some some grounding on some real numbers on all this. And I I need to point out
that there is an enormous difference between what is detectable, what we notice, and what is offensive. Okay, people talk about 60 dB, 70 dB. You know, 80 dB is the sound of an electric drill and a 100 dB is a jackhammer. if you go out when it's warm, the sound of the crickets and the tree frogs is about 75 dB. It's actually an elevated sound pressure level. And I would be willing to bet that that background sound is louder on a measurement instrument than his music is. I actually don't actually talking about it. I'm just throwing out. Okay. Yeah, I've got the I've got the sound pressure level meter on my phone. Okay. And so, you know, I I know how to go out and get that data. Yeah, I will. But the the way the instruction is written is to a very good standard is we won't be a nuisance to the neighbors. We had a couple of people that shared some thoughts that had bordered on that and and I'm looking for the win-win on how to make a suggestion is you might try ending the concerts at 9:00 and seeing if you get the support of your neighbors
that way. That's and that's all I'm going to say about that. That might be more deliberation than I'm supposed to do here tonight. But at this point, unless the commission members have an objection, I will continue the public hearing till our next meeting at 7 o'clock and updated restriction or regulations to go through. Hello. Was Leanne, you good? Okay. Oh, she's not the bottom. Did you have her? Leanne, I showed you muted. I don't see your phone number listed up there anymore. I Yeah, this is John. I merged her I merged her phone number with her video
feed just so it was just one listing. Okay. Well, at this point, sorry, but we can't get in get Leanne's comment. We can make it at some other point. But that that concludes the public hearing portion of the meeting for tonight. Thank you for attending. Thank you guys for being involved in the community and those folks who joined us for that online. Well, thank you for joining us. outside. I appreciate it. You want to get back tonight. Thank you. so at in time 88 I will call the regular meeting of the planning zoning commission to order. First up is roll call and seating of
alternates. I see Ann, Patrick, Scott, Leanne, and myself. All the regulars are here in addition to the alternates. all three alternates are with us tonight. So thank you all for attending. next up is addition or changes to the agenda. And I'd like to add an item 7C, which is the discussion of the letter that the town attorney, Dennis O'Brien, has asked our zoning enforcement officer to sign about the lot line adjustment between the King family and in the town of Andover. So I make the motion to any other changes to the agenda. Okay. I make a motion to approve the change one change the agenda to add item
7 C the letter B lot adjustment. Looking for a second. A second. Okay. Thank you. An any discussion? No. Call for vote. Ant. I. Patrick I. Scott. Hi, Leanne. Jed, this is Katherine Hutchinson. Leanne just sent me a text saying that she can't unmute herself. I just showed that she did. Oh, she just did. Okay. I just a second got in. All right. Thank you. I I don't know what happened. I couldn't even, you know, use the mute button. the motion. What is the motion on the floor? Okay. Next up, the public speak. Yes, ma'am. what is the motion on the floor? The motion on the floor was to add the one item to the agenda. The letter the lot line agenda. The what? the lot line adjustment between the King family and the town of Andover that we voted on last year at the town Dennis O'Brien. Well, I don't want to get into it now because get there. We're just going to add that thing to the That's the And it passed five. Okay. And what happened was the was the what happened to the Fitch item? We we adjourned the public hearing. We'll continue it at the next meeting. Okay, good. That's what I was going to suggest. Thank you. Okay,
so next up is we've got a free application confer God is coming to discuss is planned and I'll turn it over to you and you you referred to the date of the meeting so I will pay respect to that. so I believe the commission has copies of my draft application as Wayne pointed out over email. It's not complete and I'm aware of that. The reason I'm here tonight is because I wanted to vet whether I should go through the process building the application as you probably know going through that is at least hundreds of dollars if not more I have a brother he probably had to do with $20,000 on so basically I'm here to say you identified a property Hill Road property 24.8 acres on its known residential at this time would like to put an energy independent AI data center. Now let me just talk for a second about energy independent. So y'all all are probably reads I'm reading about AI taking over the world. Analysts are saying we're going to run out of capacity. Capacity means the idea. The other thing people are saying is there's going to be a shortage of power. So for example might not be able to provide us all the power we need. But what I wanted to do
is put natural gas substation, a couple of panel farms on the property next to the and then wide vines point. Maybe we're going to make some but not any kind of you know that there are a lot more certification that's certing some sort of or what have you. plan to do that. Now the main issue is so number one the data center two stories 200 by 200 relatively large but it's going to be offset off the ground. I was out at the property walking the the ground the other day and I I did also want to mention catch that I sent you the application to actually pay discovered when I walked the druit owned property so everything is going to have to be moved up the road possible and frankly I love the land so that's unfortunate but so the issues that I need to deal with of course number one natural gas although it's less polluting than some of the other energy sources out there still need to control any kind of pollutants coming out of that and there are ways to do that. So now all of that I realize I need to have certified through various Connecticut agents. So I am tracking those. I didn't ignore them. Wayne, I looked at them and I, you know, I
realized, okay, I have to do something pretty similar to this application to Andover just for the the water. Plus, I can't just guess what the flooding characteristics are. I was in contact or I attempted to contact a previous owner, Roger Bell. I don't know if any of you are familiar with that. He did not respond to either an email or a call wondering whether he did any testing. As I walked the property, it occurred to me that maybe we just bought it because wanted to hunt deer on it. I don't know. but in any event, it's an unimproved property. So, we would
need to put septic systems on there. We need to put in a well, build the building. We need to build a substation. We need to put up those solar panel farms. and also have a parking lot in the data center. and I am also aware that the certification requires me to get approval of the fire department and make sure they have water available if there's a fire. All those things I I've looked at, but really coming up with a solid plan is going to cost a fair sum. and I wanted to make sure hearing from you folks there's no chance that we're going to be able to put a a data center on the property then I I don't want to try to do it and the the why why would Andover want this? Well, I would say and I haven't gone out to any of your local businesses to see hey you guys need AI resources right now. I would say for most people as a toy may be insulting but most people are just playing games with it but there is tremendous potential if you're smart efficient so I'm seeing companies like Sigma like which you know is owned by CS now health providers I'm a veteran I've been trying to get in to help the VA trying to deploy a new electronic health record system. presumably there would be some need there also for data center resources. so I believe it would be enhance the the tax base. I don't think we're going to be hiring hundreds of people on in
fact in my draft application plan a lot of people showing off but I hope revenue would be interesting over and businesses that might be using AI resources that don't have their own in-house resources they of course would be welcome to customers of our services when as I said open saford health haven health ever source are also going to be so again that's so the main the main my main objective in coming here tonight is is take as little of your time as possible, but to hear from you whether you know there's any chances residential property could do what I'm asking. Wayne also mentioned, hey, you know, we got Route Six. There's lots of commercial zoning. Why don't you look at that? Well, you know, I've been looking at Connecticut because I grew up here. This is the property that, you know, kind of rose to the top. So, if there's property out there that I'm not aware of, I know the Bolton Ice ice rink looked about as I drove by looked about the largest build that's close to what I was looking to do. so, o open to options, but again, the main objective here is, you know, should I continue? My my real estate agent is here. should we continue to consider buying the property or is that not a good idea just because there's no way and and I did of course have the opportunity to listen to the discussion about the farm the concerns about all that and that doesn't even environmental factors that deal with we'll try to be
independent so back probably 12 or so years ago, the last big thing that tried to come into handover was a night a natural gas infusion plant. It was going to be at the Christmas tree farm right out here and they got blown out of the water. Never even made it as far as you just did tonight. So, congratulations. but that you know I think the concern was all these tankers with natural gas were going to come on a heavily trafficked property and and you know if I might make a quick comment on that I'm not looking to generate enough net energy to to supply all of Connecticut or even focused on the AI data center just so I don't have AI I don't have ever source saying sorry you haven't got power for you and tomorrow, you know, we have to shut down. I just don't that was just an example of the last thing we we did get a little feedback from the town at that point. The just so in your in your write up you talk about the size of this building, right? And it's and I want to
make sure it's not a paper. It's large. So you say in fact two story 25,000 square meter that's not feet that's meters. Okay. Yep. That that is huge. Well and in fact one of one of the partners that I listed here came back to me and said sorry our approach is we do wooden frames. We we can't do a building that size. We have to do. So I I actually have made an adjustment to my plan. Seven Summits construction out of Hartford I think is probably a better choice for that. But I have not gone through all the details again because we can't build it, you know, spending money or asking people. I I feel guilty inviting Ron to be here today. So So just, you know, continuing on a little bit. So the location of that property on
on Skinner Hill, you know, and if you if you were to look in our plan of conservation development, the the business industrial pretty much along Route Six at this point. If the property were open for Route Six, then it would certainly be easier, right? We So that would be a a huge industrial thing in a completely residential area way way off the beat path. And and so you said, "Is there any chance?" Yeah, there there's a chance. I I think that's that's kind of a stretch from my thought is is going out there. the I would love to have the AI data center in town. I think a building that huge would be, you know, we're we just got done talking about, you know, we're going through the plan of conservation development. the businesses are 3% of our grand list. You know, everybody else is residential. I think you'd be able to help us there. The the piece of the piece of property that I do have in mind that I think could work well for you is called Windhold Corners and it's right down at the corner of Route 87 and Route Six and it's a little bit fast there, but but we have had conversations with that guy that owns it and it's not for sale now, but I don't know why it's not for sale. I think it's just because he hasn't got around to the list is my thought. You know how big the property is? It's I'm gonna say if
if acres, how many, Scott? 56. But he has parcels off of Route 6 that are like four and six directly adjacent to Route Six or on the turnaround up there. And so it's bigger, a little bigger than what you're looking at, but I think the cost of the property twice as big. Yeah. More than twice as Yeah. I don't know if that's good or bad, but if you that would be someplace where I think we could entertain right now that that piece of property's got a little bit along Route Six that's business and then the rest was intended to be residential. I put the map on the screen, Jed. Okay. Yeah. And so yeah, thank you for that. there's been talk of a vineyard on there, right? Yeah, there we have talked about putting a vineyard wine thing out there. That is part of what I've been and so I think that would be a much better fit and work well for the town. It's a guy's name. So I won't harass him, but I just it's good to know. So we have we have the chair of the e the inover economic development commission on this call and and my suggestion the lake. Hi. Yellow. So, my suggestion is is that you you guys get together and and discuss this as as we discussed on this property on Skinner Hill. The first hurdle is the zone change and that's a significant hurdle. You've been up there. you you told me you're up there. So, you know, I also read through your requirements. I got there's a huge amount of wetlands on that property. There's there's a there's a pond. It's, you know, bisected by a pond. There's a pond on it. There's a lot of wetlands.
There's an intermittent stream that goes right through the middle of it. right. And you're talking about putting a 6 acre building on a what was it? 24 acre lot. Well, so when I saw you a proposal, I say I like the proposal. I just don't I'm not fond of the piece of property you're going to put there. And I know why you picked that one. That's the one that's for sale. You look through the listings that pops up. And so my my hope tonight would be don't rule out Andover being a bunch of folks who don't want to work with you. Good. I think Well, I would just ask you that I think better to go to better parcel. If I may, our economic development commission meeting is tomorrow. You can add it to the agenda. Ela, what do you think? If you're Yeah, but it's actually on our agenda to
discuss this because it was it's an exciting proposal. I'm like, "Oh, we want those businesses, but it's got to be on Route Six." You know, it it can't be off in a residential area. and it's not just Lindome Corners. We have that whole parcel there. Andover Auto Parts. That whole parcel is and they are trying to sell that. Yeah. And then and then also I know there's some property I think it's 32 acres. the Jab property next to Network. That one they're they're in tax trouble and they haven't been able to try to get a hold of the owner at all. So that might potentially go up for tax sale in December. Wow. Okay. So those three are all all come to mind as like that that's where this would fit. [Music] Doesn't that property being split by the hot river be problematic? Well, the hot river is always there. but you could find some acreage to handle it. You because it's a large it's they're large parcels, you know what I mean? The the grapes vines could be over near the Hop River. You know what I mean? It's like the agricultural part of this could be there. but yeah, the Hop River is always an issue when you're trying to develop along Route Six. And I thought the Andover Auto Parts with the the gravel bit next to it might be too small for you, but you know, how big is that property? Does anyone know
how big that one is because you've been discussing it? Six acres or so. Oh, that's only six acres. Never mind. That would be just enough for the building. Yeah, exactly. Never mind. I thought that was a bigger and and there is not enough room on that other property. That flat area on there is not six acres. I I know that land very well. Which one? The the network. The one the one that he's trying to buy, the 24 acre piece. Oh, yeah. There might be six acres up on the top of that hill there, the flat area. But and and you've got state property. You've got Nathan Hill Farm, State property. You have you have wetlands, Coventry Farmers Market right next door. Elaine, we got we we're gonna we've got a pending problem here. The the laptop we're using is out of battery. The battery's running down. We don't have a charging cord. Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. No, you you are welcome to come to our 7 o'clock meeting otherwise, you know, we'll have another one, you know, next next month. Every month we meet. So, we can let you know when that is. Yeah. Yeah. I'll send you an email tomorrow morning early to let you know whether I can make it to the meeting tomorrow. Okay, sounds great. Thanks. I was excited to hear this. You know, I I said, well, the last good news that came down was the Dollar General. You know,
that was a little bit this coming and folks were mixed on that. But, you know, I think what you're talking about would be good for endover if we could do it right. And just don't find you a right spot. Thank you so much for your time and and for generosity. And I I must admit I was a little worried that I was going to get shut down. Your your language is pretty direct and and Wayne was quick to tell me, "Hey, your your application's incomplete and your your language does say you're you have risk of being rejected outright if you're in." But I think I I did a good job of saying, "Listen, I need to assess whether it made the investment. just so I could present to you whether it makes sense and certainly you know I I grew up in weather shield so I I didn't grow up here but you've got a beautiful town wouldn't want to do anything undermine the the environment else but right now it looks to me like AI is ready to blindside a lot of economies that great if we were able to be a little bit ahead of It would be great. I have you here. Yeah. So, if I Jed, if I might, Pete, it's I'm John Guskowski. I'm the town planner. I I would be really happy
to meet with you and sort of talk through logistics of the whole process in in Andover. Great. Okay. Thank you. And I I do know how to read and I've been reading your stuff, but a lot of it. So, God bless you and thank you for having me. And thank you Ron for coming here. I'll we have at least one other item on the agenda. Thank you. Enjoy. Thank you John. You have a way of knowing how much you got left. We can see it's halfway. Okay. Oh, we got that. Okay. So, yeah. Well, How long after the last? Yeah. Well, but it'll start flashed at us when we have to. yeah, it'll do something bad. What What I'd like to do in the interest
of battery life is go down and have Wayne talk for two minutes about this letter that he's been asked to to sign. That's item 7 C. We're not we're not going to have anything, but well u just quickly I got I met with Dennis O'Brien the handover town council and apparently there's something and it's unclear to me exactly what it is going on where the attorney for Willie King [Music] Grim and that whole land that whole boundary line agreement with the town where they they were asking for something that basically said that this boundary line agreement doesn't violate any zoning rule, any zoning regulations or creates any zoning problems. Attorney O'Brien doesn't believe it does. I don't believe it does. It's It's I don't believe it does. I know Eric doesn't believe it does. It's clearly created something. It's clearly a lot adjustment that in fact solves a a zoning issue. So, Attorney O'Brien drafted this letter. he asked, you know, that it be presented to the board and that the board bless or the board the board basically give me permission to sign off on it and send it off. I don't see any problem with it. Okay. So, at this point, I will make a motion to approve the letter that zoning agent drafted to send out on our behalf. Thank you, Ann. Any any discussion on the letter? Hearing none, I'll call for a vote. Dan. Patrick. I Scott. I didn't I Okay, thank you. Leanne, I I vote I as well. So, the motion passes 500. Next, next quick thing I want to get done before we use up to the Nevada with John is the approval of the minutes from
the last meeting. I'll make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes for plan zoning commission on Tuesday, May 20th, 2025. I'll second. Okay. Thank you, Leanne. Any discussion on those minutes? Hearing none, I'll call for vote. And Patrick, Scott, I vote I as well. The minutes are approved. 500 Z. Now we're back to John BC. Okay. well noting it's a you know relatively empty room and we're almost dealing exclusively with the commission. I I will not do a extended presentation. I wanted to to note hopefully everyone got a chance to re review. We sent out a revised copy of the economic development chapter from the POCCD incorporating comments that were stated at last meeting as well as the markup and comments that Jed you had gone through. the the major changes were you know a couple of a couple of typos and references and then we had sort of downplayed the existing floating zone stuff, the mixeduse the mixeduse zone opportunity. And so we we changed most of those references instead of establishing the that sort of mixeduse regulation to promoting and and enhancing to make them a little bit more attractive and a little bit more user friendly for the market. So there weren't that many substantive changes. I think just a change in focus. and
hopefully if anyone does have notes on that based on the second draft which is referred to as draft revised June 9th, 2025. would be happy to receive additional comments on that. and then in an effort to keep on track, we drafted the housing chapter, that I'd be happy to share. I'm again, I'm not going to go through this in great depth, this evening. Oh, sorry. My one comment on the economic development thing. Oh, okay. Yep. And so, I know it's probably intentional, but we don't have, you know, who's responsible for the action items yet. And then the paragraph right above that, you know, I thought was the would would maybe be a key to the whole thing unless we could get an AI data center. It said smaller, more dense housing options and strategic locations to be an economic boom to the town. Done correctly, this can add valuable real estate to the grand list without substantial service needs. And so I thought that was probably the place where we could get the biggest bang for the buck on our effort is getting more housing. So that's the need and I would put that number two on the action item list of priorities because as is tempting as it is to consolidate the town garage and transportation and move it someplace else can be very hard. But I think we need to and must do something with housing and that's how we're going to, you know, keep the budget under control. And the number one action item that I
would put on the list is the one you tacked on to the end, which is incorporate economic development task into the scope of work for the town planning consultant. Now, I know you probably won't like to have that hidden in at the end, John, but dang it, that, you know, if we're going to make some some progress here, we're the EDC and the planning and zoning need a little help. We need to make sure that we have the resources. And and I was very disappointed in the discussion that I heard on the budget this year that we're cutting the town budget. You know, we need more help over here to be average. You know, we we need help. So, I would put that right up there at the top. And that was my only comments on that. But I think you would agree with those Elaine. I agree with you too, Jed. Yeah. No, totally. Totally agree, Jed to make that one of the priorities. Very good. Yeah. And Okay. Now, back to the house. Okay. Oh, can I can I just one more thing on the EDC because I know I had I had mentioned it last time. it's just kind of a little sniggly thing that you still when it comes to coming up with events and things like that, you still have in there talking about the rock paper scissors and the roambo. And I basically think if nobody has any clue what you're talking about that that was just a little too specific. But you know just kind of developing some kind of tournaments or festivals is good enough as opposed to rock paper
scissors because I I still don't even know what that is. I thought it was somebody's attempt to humor the day. Yeah, I know. Well, that's that's fine. I I mean this was this was a suggestion from from EDC specifically and I mean because from Viata I know it was biata well so yeah I mean we could I don't know what are you suggesting Elaine to to something of this type or to get no develop tournaments and festivals surrounding the history of the town okay the town history Because once again, I mean, when people read through this stuff, they'll all a sudden say, "What the hell is that?" Yeah. Yeah. It's a It's a teaching opportunity. Yeah. Okay. Battery's running. Yep. Enough of that fun. Okay. All right. So, we can we can
refresh. Thank you, Elaine. Yep. okay. So, let's see. Housing. I'll share that. Okay. So, again, this is, the, vision statement that we envision in Andover that strives to create a more more affordable housing to welcome a wider variety of residents and households and ensures opportunity for residents to thrive throughout their life stages. we go through a lot of the background and the data that was available as part of the affordable housing plan. that talks about the the age of our units, the you know the distribution the relative drop off of new construction over the last really 15 years or so. and then places and over you know in its context in terms of
median household price, household sizes and and and that sort of thing. So, we go through the the demographics and and what's that affordability. we talk a bit about Alice and the need for affordable housing for not only our current population but also populations of Connecticut and and projected population relative to housing grow housing costs and the need for increased opportunities for empty nesters and and young families and and first-time home buyers and those sorts of things. So it it's a it's a lot of sort of going through a lot of that data. and then we focus on the aims and objectives, the strategy items. and I'll just I'll read briefly the the the four big core goals which are to ensure adequate housing for individuals of all ages and incomes is available within Andover with a focus on allowing for allowing residents to age in town and young adults to remain in town and grow their families. Second to allow for a variety of types of affordable housing. Third is increase the number of affordable housing units through incentives and density bonuses where appropriate. And fourth is to encourage additional housing in locations near existing services and transportation options. and then we go through a variety. I think there's about there's 13 specific recommendations looking at different sections of the regulations to tweak for additional density or you know restriction requiring restrictions on income as well as looking at specific grant or funding opportunities that the town could pursue to create either carrots or sticks to to incor encourage more affordable housing development.
so I I I won't go through all of those. I'm happy hopefully people have gotten a chance to take a look and I'm happy to listen to any comments. and and then you know we we'll talk about this next month as well. I thought that action or strategy number six was done. The ADUs as of right I thought it was still a special permit. Am I in special permit unless it's as of right if you rent restrict it restrict it but if you want to not have it restricted then I see yeah so then it's a special permit. Yeah. And so this this is this is recommending going going making it either shifting it a little bit and so making it easier for everyone. So either make it as of right across the board or make it an affordable restriction across the board. So it could be as of right but you're you're you're restricting. So to basically encourage more of them one way or another. So but but yeah but we can we can we can look at that a little bit more. Okay. And just as a reminder Yeah. Just as a reminder to everybody, we don't allow ADUs in Lake District unless you've got like three acres of land. You don't allow accessory dwelling units in the lake district.
No, ourselves here a little bit. Great write up. One word that I got heartburn with the very last sentence of the various methods of achieving goals and were discussed in the end portal housing plan. Continued commitment to achieving them will result in sustained efficiency housing stock. If we continue to commit the way we have over the last couple years, we will get zero. Where? So, get rid of that. Continue. Where is Where? I'm sorry. Where is that? That is the second line up above and objectives. Yeah, we we have done I think we've done an okay job with the the regulations, but no, we have done nothing for affordable housing. Okay. Yeah. Identified the last plan of conservation the three or four areas where I don't know if that's in this new version. It it is that's about all we've done. So adding to what you said, you know, right? Yeah. But you know how much affordable housing did we we have in the last five years? Right. Right. Yeah. That's a thing. So, you know, we either don't believe that we want more affordable housing and we just pay lip service to it or we
got to start doing something. But, you know, to continue on as we have gone is not going to get us anywhere. So, does affordable housing falls under what's the moment? affordable housing. We we do have a regulation for 55 and over plan residential development but you know we can do other stuff too that okay maybe this is not the platform to discuss it about I'm concerned with affordable housing. Yes I think we all are just so and it takes you know strategy one is the key to this whole thing. We have to create an affordable housing committee to work on it. and and that was that was item number one in our affordable housing plan, you know, and we don't have one. So, we need to if if we fix this or start making any progress at all, we got to go out and start tackling it. And
going to take a much bigger effort than anybody wants to do right now. Yep. And I think that's because we're all happy living in our little single family single houses, right? Yeah. And I think affordable housing, if I may see, it comes with a lot of problems. I think that needs to be addressed and looked at. Yep. Everything else. So, I mean, well, and we're looking for, you know, Alice housing, not you, not lowinccome housing. You know, we're talking about policemen and teachers and you know, nurses and stuff like that that you would love to have. So I I think this town would be perfect for I do too. I'm looking for one. Yeah, I think I mean that's that's an option. Further up back after talking about the hog homes at Riverside Drive. It says section 4.14 of the regulation currently caps the density of six bedrooms that septic systems or is that just that was I think it was due to septic systems. We used to have a requirement that you could only have a 5,000galon and I think it's like 150 gallons per person per day goes into that. Right. So it's it's Go ahead. We moved up to 7500. So that's a 50% increase in the septic design. So we we can make that and there's a lot of technology going on in septic designs now. I think we can make that much better than that. Yes, it would. Yeah. So, it's it's it's 150 gallons per bedroom. and so 7500 gallons equates to basically 50 bedrooms worth on on any given lot. So, assuming your soils are decent or you have enough acreage, you
could actually do a fairly substantial development. [Music] Yes, that's changed that one thing new new stuff. Any other comments? So, what we would ask is if so, everyone hopefully has the word version of this. if you do have edits and I' I've made a couple of notes this evening, we'll plan to send out a revised version of this and you know in the next few weeks in advance of the next meeting and then in advance of the next meeting we will prepare the next chapter which I believe is the quality of life chapter. and and Jed, to your initial point, yes, we will when we have all the chapters drafted, we will also be producing an implementation guide that has the the to-do list for who's who's doing what and when. I was a little surprised that in the background your lead in paragraph talked about in the remaining 2% are mobile home to see that there was a mobile home in Andover. Well, that's what the Census Bureau says. Okay. Because you know, one thing you probably got to do is upgrade our regulations to allow mobile home some extent. Even though everybody's excited about that either, but that that's in 50 5002. Yeah, it is. It is. It's yeah, for an individual lot like mobile manufactured homes are to be treated the same as standard single family stickuilt houses. so which not to say you could put a trailer park on your residential property, but you could put a trailer
style home as your as your residence. Yes. Yeah. Now, is there something that we should recognize in this chapter on affordable housing that discusses anything coming out of what the state working on right now? I don't think No, I I I I don't think so. what what 502 would require is a modification of how we approach our affordable housing plan principally. That's the major change that that would address zoning planning and zoning and it would just establish a numerical target for housing generation mostly through regulations, you know, incentives, policies, requirements, and that sort of thing. It doesn't require the town to build anything or to to fundamentally do anything different with how it's building, but but it would it would be primarily a regulatory change and and you know, this chapter in specific, you know, talks up and down about the need to encourage more of these things. So I I think any affordable housing plan with a specific numerical target that would come out of the town would be very much in line with the the direction and thrust of this chapter.
Okay. Any other comments from anybody else who's here on on the housing thing? Okay. What else you got for us, John? well, I mean, we could we could talk a little bit more about 5002. which which does have a number of things that towns are going to have to to look at. it's, by the way, it's it passed both House and Senate sitting on Lamont's desk. he hasn't decided whether or not he's going to sign it yet. It seems likely he's going to allow it to pass into law over the next week, whether he signs it or just, you know, lets it be, which would be an automatic approval. but he will probably bring the legislature into special session this summer to address some of the more problematic things. A lot of towns had problems with there is an elimination of arbitrary minimum parking standards in local zoning in in favor in favor of instead allowing or requiring developers to demonstrate that they have sufficient parking for their anticipated parking demand. In other words, case by case, a developer would come in and say, "Hey, I've got here's a Starbucks or here's a Chick-fil-A or here's a Dollar General. I I'm going to need 75 parking spots and here they are." Rather than rather than the town saying if you have 2,000 square feet of
retail, you need da da da parking. And and it, you know, eliminates the formulaic and and goes to the specific. there's also an as of right provision that commercially zoned property could become middle housing which is to say two to nine units of housing. that's a little bit of a problematic provision that may get excised if we go into special session. there's another provision that would require every municipality regardless of size to have a a fair rent commission. but there's also a provision that would allow municipalities to regionalize their fair rent commission. So it's certainly possible that you know Andover will be you know asked to participate in a CRUG you know regional fair rent commission or you know Bolton Coventry Andover Colombia will won't go into one together. anyway there's there's a there's there's a number of provisions. I I don't think any one of them is going to dramatically change the way Andover does business or does it planning. I I do think that if we have to write a fair housing plan or a a an affordable housing plan under the new provisions, it'll just require the town to be a little bit more aggressive with some of the regulatory changes that it's it's looking at. but again, I it's it's not it's not a it's not a C change. How did the fair share conduct discussion end up? So the the a fair share report was issued
and and this this bill and and there they the consultant used three or four different methodologies to come up with sort of different numbers. One was sort of based on economic opportunity within the community. Others was based on sort of proximity to transit and job centers. others was dealt with the sort of level of throughput of of applications for development. and they they settled on this bill 502 settled on methodology A of the study which you know sets up a a number and I I regret I don't have Andover's number off hand but it it sets a big number which in Andover is is not that big. It's it maybe 200 units or something like that which you know relatively speaking is a lot but this bill would then this bill would then take a quarter of that and that would be the town's target
for the first 10-year period. So again let's I I'm let's assume the number is 200. I think it's probably lower than that. But then we take a quarter of that. 50 units. And that's what the town's target would be over the next 10 years is how can we improve the regulations, improve the regulatory environment, you know, through a system of incentives and and requirements, you know, make it possible for that number of units to be built. And so it's just it just places a number on the town's trajectory. Okay. What happened? Have we Have we contacted the governor's office? Push back some of it. I know Eric has. Good. The governor was here. Push back for what reason? The reason it's that's a that's a high number for a small town like that. It's Yeah. mandate the towns on on what they need to target as far as affordable housing. Okay. Well, so there's there's been a federal law called the Fair Housing Act that's been in place for 55 years and towns like Andover have basically ignored it for five decades. So at some point you got to follow the law. Well, I'll disagree with the stateing and regulating towns. Okay. But this the
state controls zoning. Any any authority that towns have is granted to it by the state. So it's it's it's not as if the town is an independent entity with with sovereignty of its own. Listen, my my my wife is a real estate lawyer and she can probably get into it with you more. So, I'll be more than happy. Send her my number. Absolutely. I disagree with this. So, okay. Yep. A lot of people do. That's why why there's such a problem in the town in this town and every other rural town. That's why we're here because it's rural. Want to keep it that way. Okay. I think so that's old business. The new business we're not doing anything on Michael Heckler. He'll start next time. we deferred that at his request and we'll continue the zoning regulation text amendment application and we voted last time that we would have the special permit for pitch the next one too. I don't know if he can do that based on where we are now because he doesn't know but we put in it but that's that's his choice. We have no, we have to act on it. And let let me ask you this. do you want me to talk to Ryan Fitch and perhaps ask him to withdraw that application? I think it would be in his best interest. Okay. It would make this whole process go a little different. Y So I'm sorry. You withdraw his activity application versus the regulation application? a special permit application he has. Right. Okay.
Yeah. It's just not tied. Right. He and he has a lot of work to do also, Jed. He has to have a I mean some sort of diagram. I know he doesn't have a lot of money, but he has to have that's true. The Yes. Yeah. I'm not saying he needs an engineer, but something something has to be drawn up that he has to show us. he has to be able to come to us with something that meets all the requirements. So my focus right now is on BOC and trying to get through the regulations to us there. see how cooperative teams [Music] that sort of thing by next month. One thing I realized documents that was signing. I didn't know what where that was coming from. Now it makes sense that [Music] but the music was Well, we can't Yeah, we can't we shouldn't be talking about that at this point. I just I just made a like Saturday night. We're not talking this so I don't hear that. So, next up is correspondence. Anything on that? Look at my notes. no, no, no, no correspondence. Okay. Well, the only correspondence was we we discussed this under item item five, the pre-application conference. Okay, moving on to administrative reports. you're up again, Wayne. We're So, I'm happy to say that I in that did pass the Casio level one exam, which I was really worried that I did pass it, but I I got notified that I did. Okay, so having said that, something came to my Congratulations. Can you hear me? Some something was brought to my attention involving a real estate offering on on Wales Road that I did my research on. Learned that that
property is not a lot of record. It's not a it's not a lot that's been reported. And in further research, I listed these attorneys of and they confirm my opinion that a lot of record cannot be offered for sale. A lot that is lot that is not on the record not be offered for sale. So I am working with the land owner and the real estate and there's been a lot of back and forth between them resistance I'll be honest notice of violation is pending and issue voluntary compliance is not forthcoming. a a play complaint that I investigated the Hutcherson Road. after my investigation, I determined it was mostly unsubstantiated. However, there are some cars on the property that are not registered or being found. They are in good shape, not jump or anything like that. So I'm monitoring that again for [Music] where is that last one question in row thanks specifics I don't want to discuss in a public forum forum individual teams and things like that right so I've also brought what information I gleaned from my investigation to the town assessor. There was a complaint build clearing a lot
not against any of our rules to cut your trees down. but it appears as though the complainant is is working with the landlord who purchased the property behind them. Hopefully that goes away because of that. I investigated a bite violation on Hill Road. zoning violation would have been in a camp trailer taking up residence in a camp trailer. I'm unable to substantiate that portion of the complaint. However, a potential blind issue does remain. [Music] again and hoping for voluntary compliance before don't go down the road of of writing them for on on Andover Lake remember the name of the road but it it's it's it's actual I I did deny an application for a deck because it was proposed I watermark is against our rule. That's the end of my report. Okay, for Wayne I didn't think that I saw the camp trailer. That's an angle. I noticed the kids. Well, no. wetland water there. Anything else, John? nothing else for me, Jeff. Okay, we've already approved the minutesly scheduled with a public hearing prior to 7 o'clock on July 15. We'll try and find the real owl. I I apologize. I thought of coming out here this morning. Everything was okay and set up, but then I said, "Yeah, what could go wrong?" Those are the magic words.
Okay. anybody else have anything for tonight? John. John, what is your number? I'm sorry. Phone number. My phone number 860 455 8251. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. If nothing else, it's 910. Make a motion to adjourn. Second. All in favor say I. I. Any oppos? Any abstaining? Motion 500. Thank you everybody for