okay we are on the record it is now 604 the June 11th meeting of the charter revision commission is now in session we have in attendance Carol Lee Patricia Billings jod gross Karen Mador Jeff Maguire and Adrien Mandeville is absent doesn't look like we have any members of the public public present right now let me just bring up the agenda to make sure that I don't miss anything here we have called to order the second item will be public speak we have no members of the general public I just say something during public speak though yeah I wanted to say if if there are any members of the commission who want to speak as individuals Now's the Time so Carol go ahead I I would just like to suggest that section 10008 review an amendment of the charter that we just add a single line to that that states if upon review amendments to the Charter are deemed necessary the board of Selectmen shall appoint a charter revision commission giving this commission a minimum of 12 months complete their charge this way rather than having these Charter review visions that are you know expected to be done in three to six weeks that it's the law of the town of Andover I mean we need more time to honestly review our you know get our charge and then review what charge we are given do a good job at the chart of revision it's an interesting notion open the floor to discussion on this anyone have any thoughts yeah I think time is an interesting thing and so you know the real question is do you want to bite off one or two things in three to four months or do you want
to try to do multiple things a lot of things so I think with a short time period I think we just you know as a board without that provision in there or as a commission sorry whatever we are committee we just need to recognize that we can do what we can do in a short period of time and have that level of discussion so I'm I'm inclined not to put that type of requirement in but because it kind of blocks Us in to saying you can only do it with 12 months because I think I think we're able to get some substantial improvements changes even in a three to four month period I'm not saying that we can't
complete it in three months Jody but I'm just saying we know that every November there is going to be an election whether it be municipal gorial or presidential every November there will be an election so you have 12 months notice for that I'm not saying that the charter revision couldn't be assigned in January or in December of one year completed the end of January the following year if there are smaller things to be done but a couple of the things that we were given are not smaller things to look into they're major things they're major changes for our form of government and you know if we're if not only the charter revision commission but the general public has 12 months notice too that this Charter revision is going to take place and these are the items that the board of Selectmen are suggesting that we given that the charge well the Implement in the charge nomally comes from the board of Selectmen and we have a select person here on our commission
Jeff do you have any thoughts on sure minimum me I was on mute I I guess Carol the only issue I would have is I don't think there's a limitation from the board of Selectmen to the number of times it's in panels a charter committee is that accurate correct all right so we're going to limit the board future board of selectman to only allowing or having to impanel a charter revision commission and it has to go 12 months whereas we could finish this Charter revision commission and the board of Select could impanel another one to move forward and and even further than that we wouldn't have to wait till the election I know what I was attempting to do Carolyn I do understand you know where you're coming from but I don't necessarily know that setting a limitation on either the number of times you can impanel a charter revision commission or the timing of that Charter
revision commission is is a positive I don't I don't see it as you have to impanel them and give them a year to do it I totally understand if if I sat there and said to you tear the entire Charter apart and do the whole thing yeah you'd need a year to really go through Section by section word by word to make sure you're correct and that you're getting to where you want to be even my issue of the Town Council it's a change of government it's not that drastic of a change if you think it through from a common sense perspective it's a change yes no one likes it but I don't necessarily know that 12 months I I just think it's another limiting factor yeah 12 months seems a lot to me also I would I I think the idea that there should be some minimum length of time that the charter commission has to work with before it comes up against a
hard deadline I mean we have these hard deadlines because things have to get on the ballot and they do have to get on the ballot there could also a special referendum vote for that the problem is we have to have certain number turn out for that referendum so it doesn't necessarily have to go on a November ballot either could have it as a referendum vote so and having it as a referendum would be more expensive though also than just having it at the same time as a general election right rather than have it as a question on the during the general election that is correct it is an additional couple thousand dollars to the town have that special ref and you know Carol one thing that I would sit there and I wouldn't
mind if we sat there and found a way to put this into the charter is that any Charter revisions need to get on a November ballot and the reason and and just so everybody here understands what I was trying to do is I was trying to get a charter revision on the presidential ballot because it will be the most attended election that we have in the four-year cycle and so it was to give the most opportunity for the majority of the people that don't participate in government to have a say on something that I believe is important I mean we're not going to get done what I wanted to get done in this Charter revision commission but we are going to get done a lot of good things so I don't necessarily I I would tell you the only way to do a charter Revision in my mind is to put it on a November ballot and cycle it to the presidential election and up Carol I apologize I was late so well while we've got this idea out I mean suppose we say no we're not gonna ever go to a a special referendum it has to be on a general election and there has to be a minimum three months does that sound workable does that sound like it has negatives associated with it why limit us at all why limit the why handcuff the I would try to say a minimum of six months just because of the statute directed date we have to have the public hearing we have to have our meetings we have to have final public hearing at the end so if we I
just don't want to see us make a rush decision on something because we have deadlines that are statutory deadlines and we don't have a way to change I just rather than a thre monmon block that's kind of tough really go out and do the research I think if we can't do the 12 months I I I will totally agree with the six months because you do need time if you don't need the full six months you don't need it but at least you have the six months but we're getting a minimum of six months notice is all I'm saying to enact the charter revision Commission because the board of Selectmen you know it says they shall review or cause to be review from time to time as they be necessary so their hands aren't tied as far as doing that but at least give that
minimum of six months so we can do our job correctly well from my perspective it sounds like we have a whole lot of different thoughts on this and Ju Just as a digression something that's that's become obvious to me the last couple of of meetings and so I ask for help whenever it it seems obvious when things require a a a motion and a vote to proceed and it seems like this is one of them though whether or not we proceed on this or whether we just just move on with the things that are that are on our plate already yeah you're you're in public comment still and we're all just commenting as public folks when you want to come out and if there's someone on this committee that wants to make a motion and be recognized by the chair Robert's Rules of parliamentary procedure allow that to happen or we could do that under item four we could do it under item four also okay I mean it just so you know we're all aware this Charter revision commission can do anything that it wants so Carol is not out of line to sit there and attempt to do this I mean listen I read this and and there's I read the charter again and there's typos in our Charter I would like to correct the typos in the charter so it's it's it's a motion that eventually I'll make will we agree to just like not say hoarde let's say Bor let's get get rid of dashes and and so Carol anything that anybody on this panel you want to do something you want to attempt to do something if it's common sense and it and it and it you
know you you got to put it up I mean there's no reason the reason I put up the Town Council is to me it's Common Sense everybody doesn't AG have to agree with me that's democracy that's how we work so let's move on so come out of public speak and let's just make motions and talk about the items that are out there and let's see how quickly we can get all the information to the town attorney so he can draft something and we can sit there and keep reviewing thank you Jeff all right let's then come out of public speak unless anyone has any other items that they want to bring to the floor theual citizens who's the Samsung I'm assuming that phone Samsung sm1 146 U yeah with that individual like to make comment or participate or who are they really so we can understand yeah well we need to know for the record member of the public who's calling in on a cell phone can you please identify yourself unmute and identify okay well just let's keep muted let's go okay so move on to item three approval of the
minutes all right excuse me I would like to make a motion to approve the minutes for the public hearing and our Three Special meetings as written I'll second that motion Karen got it okay so moved by Carol seconded by Karen has everyone had time to examine these prior to this meeting we all in a position to be able to vote intelligently I know I am let's go any further discussion all those in favor I I I any opposed 6 the minutes are approved all right so item four discussion and possible action on any Charter review issue so when we last left this dollar amounts was approved early voting dates of Elections were approved we had continued until this week referendum voting to align the Board of Education Carol that yourself there you go what do you have for us get myself organized I would was not expecting to be firsts I am sorry I'll tell you what you can get your get your stuff together we'll let's just talk about a few of these other things while you're organized so okay thank you number five the town clerk position was Adrien he's not with us right now so we're gonna have to defer that along with number 10 the supplemental appropriation which would trigger a referendum vote that was also a Adrian Jeff would you like to talk about your ordinance procedures I saw that you circulated a nice document so let us know your thoughts okay so on the ordinance issue the main issue is we have some confusion in the current process from a minor ordinance to a major ordinance and how they
would go through and flow through the current process within the charter so the issue from my standpoint would be to there's no more there would be no more major or minor there would only be ordinances and the ordinances would be able to be created and approved through the process by the board of Selectmen and the sections that I identif ified that you would have to adjust where it be definition Section 105 basically eliminating the ordinance the minor ordinance information and saying that the current all the ordinances that are currently in place are in effect and then you would move on to 301 in the general and you would sit there and make some language and some terminology about the legislative authority of the Town shall be shared by the board of Selectmen of the town meeting the town meeting shall have final Authority for final approval of those actions of the town and thereafter Hereafter enumerated in section 304 304 relates to the special Town meetings called and so it would then go on to sit there and say the board of Selectmen shall have legislative Authority for all matters not specifically enumerated Hereafter in section 304 including but not limited to the authority to approve enact repeal and modify all ordinances after a public hearing and also those Powers enumerated section 402 which I'll get to in the future and also those Powers formally assigned to the town meeting per section 403d of this Charter so in section 403 under the special Town meetings it's the to meeting would remain in effect all
Financial issues everything else related to what we've been dealing with in the past and this section we would sit there and strike the 403d and then the 403 J which relate to ordinance and ordinance approvals and it's the same thing under petition Town meetings to remove 304d and 304j so if you go in and you read those and why don't we do that if you guys don't mind4 D so I highlighted what I needed to deal with D 304d is the creation consolidation modification and abolition of a permanent board commission department or agency not otherwise provided for in this Charter however provided in this Charter provided however any newly created board department or agency of commission shall come under the provisions contained in this Charter so what I'm saying here is this section is eliminating the need to go to a special town meeting if the board selectman determines that they want to create a board so let's sit there and say a board that is currently not operating that's in the charter you know and we wouldn't we wouldn't do it we really should Beef It Up is there's an ordinance committee that's in there but the every once in a while while I've been on the board of Select them we've created a boards and so this is if you wanted to create a permanent board you just don't
have to go to town meeting to do this we probably it's not something that I think you would want to go to town meeting it's not Financial I don't think it has any significant U need to sit there and deal with that and then the other item that we're talking about is 304j the approval repeal or modification of any Town ordinance when petition pursuant to the provisions of section 305 the charter has amended providing set Ord are not inconsistent with any other provisions of this Charter or with the Connecticut General statute so those are the two items that would be moved from town meeting to the board of Selectmen and the other items that we would sit there and deal with related to this is you would get to the board of Selectmen in the general Powers which is 402 just tells the board so it says minor currently and it's now go it would now say to an act amend or repeal ordinances providing they are not inconsistent with this Charter and not legally inconsistent with the general statutes of the state of Connecticut also under 402 whoops sorry about that 402b to enact ordinances creating consolidating modifying or abolishing agencies commissions boards and other authorities not otherwise provided for in this Charter and then you would move move on to public hearing and this section shall remain intact except the phrase not covered by section 105h shall be deleted and we would change the waiting period from 21 days to replace with 45 days now the one thing that I don't have here and it's something that I need to we talked about three
things that I've covered in here the three things were U timing we talked about timing to give a minimum time for people to get the one thing that I don't have here is so the public hearing is in here so the three things we had is public hearing a 45 day review period and then we were talking about the percentage of of people needed to petition to move this to a referendum and in our Charter after my read today was we don't have anything that sits there and Carol unless you're going to tell me I missed it a way for the public to petition to get to something to referendum there's the information for petitioning to move to town meeting but that's the whole point of this is to
try to minimize the things that have to go to town meeting I would rather it go to a referendum and have it be on the voting cycle a normal voting cycle as opposed even a special election and I to to frame this in understanding we we just had Jeff Murray we've had a problem at the town at the at the new field and of dogs residents bringing dogs down to the park and having the dogs at the park and we've had this discussion our boorder of Select meeting probably 15 times like what to do with people who are down at the the town fields and at their dogs defecating on the field and to pass that ordinance and find those
people we have to go the board of Select would have to go to town meeting to get this passed this is the this is what this is this is not a you know we need this overall craziness to sit there and dictate to the Town certain things but there are things that don't need to go to town meeting that are common sense that should get approved so and that one is one of them so we just it was just brought up by one of the other Selectmen to potentially create an ordinance and we had the discussion is it a minor or a
major ordinance so those are those are the items that's what I would I would recommend we provide to the town attorney to sit there and determine whether it's good or bad or if if it needs to be changed but those are the things that I'd like to see put in place the only thing because we do not have in our Charter petition process so hebr if you look at their Charter section 405 there's a power of overrule ordinances adopted by the board of Selectmen it clearly spells out what a resident would do if they did not agree with that ordinance it says that petition is filed within 20 days after the final action and 2% of the electors of the town would have to sign that petition in order to force that ordinance to potentially be overturned at a reference I have no problem with that I agree with that I just did not have the wording when I wrote it up today and I can send this over to you if you want I mean clear here and have no problem stealing from Hein or anybody else no because Charter is hein's Charter the one that we adopted in 1999 was exactly hein's Charter word for word including the section numbers the only things that were changed were modified to fit the town of and give me if you guys don't mind I have to go run and do one thing that's why my alarm went off so give me one second I'll be right back all right well while Jeff is doing
that thing told us how long he was gonna be gone for can we can when I when I heard what you described it sounded similar to section 305a and then it talks about going to referendum 2% going to referendum is that different than what you were just describing that's sort of petitioning for town meeting but then there's a note there that talks about going to referendum from the town meeting and what what kind of struck me a bit on based on je what Jeff had he was striking 304j which kind of referenced this 305 so I I didn't quite I I wasn't following it in that regard so I'm I'm just trying to understand 305a what is that really saying to us so it's saying that or petition town meeting concerning so it's forcing something to go to a petitioned town meeting yeah this would just force it to go to a referendum vote Jody the the issue would be not to have Town meetings unnecessarily if we could at all possibly avoid it I mean I I always look at Town meetings it's Financial everybody in this town should have the rights to go and financially deal with anything in town I have no
problem with that some of the other things are just you know more clerical more operational and and you're going to a town meeting to explain why you want to have an ordinance for dogs on the field that's kind of my my mental side it's always been my mental side of it it's like I got to go I and we've held off doing a lot of ordinances and pushing for the town meetings because you know we've had them and we're going well why do we want to spend the money to have a town meeting and I know Carol will say two grand but two grand is two grand so but don't you aggregate those like we do the last time we aggregated them I mean that's why this last town meeting had like seven items on the town meeting because we aad them so your your intent is really to
try to make government a bit more efficient you're trying to give more latitude to the five Board of Selectmen that that 3,200 people elected to enact ordinances but I guess I just as a lay person I'm just trying to understand Where's the Line like could you I don't know you know $1,000 a day ordinance through the board of Selectmen for people who have white mailboxes I mean it sounds crazy but I'm just trying to understand is there how do you how do you make differentiation I would tell you I would tell you the answer is probably yes if I could convince the members of the board to do it but that's not how it works I mean you you you know we all know it's it's not going to first thing would be if I put in if we put in something that was objectional to the town residents I I would hope and I probably would be there to probably try to go and overturn or move something to to a referendum and get it overturned okay so the recourse for the town let's just say there's three crazy people on our Board of Selectmen for whatever reason and they do something
the course for the town you're saying is is what bring them to bring it to referendum and get it overturned yeah and then vote them out you know hey let me ask let me ask a question looking looking to how the state does things for guidance and forgive me my you know forgetting my my basic Civics so at the state level here in Connecticut laws can get generally get passed two ways they can get passed by the legislature somebody somebody brings something to the floor of the legislature they de debate it they amend it they vote it in and a law gets passed that way but laws can also get passed through public vote through referendum what makes things go one way or another because you know at the Town level we're talking about being able to make it through the elected legislative body versus through a direct vote and that's that's mirrored at the state level so what triggers when something is done one way versus the other at the state level well first of all I'm not aware that in the state of Connecticut you can put something on a ballot measure and get it passed I know in California you can I know in other states you can but I don't think in Connecticut you can do that but this is where there's a confusion within our Charter our Charter because there's the minor ordinance and you know everything else like what falls into a minor ordinance what falls into what's considered a major ordinance and what so the issue ends up being it's an ordinance you elected the board of Selectmen to sit there and be your your representatives allow them to pass ordinances I'm just telling you I can't
I could sit there and see Jody's point before three crazy people get on the board and put in an ordinance that's problematic that's true I could see it but so so I think that maybe that was Carol's point about what's say say it happens so what's the sort of safety for the town how do we bring it to referendum is that in the charter no that was what Carol was talking that's what Carol was saying we need something like Hein has where people could get in an uproar and bring it for referendum yeah it ABS that absolutely has to be that was something we discussed good we discussed so the points I'm addressing and what I brought forth are the points up until the way that we go about and and push something to a referendum and challenge it so Carol has that language from Hein we should provide that I'm I'm all in agreement it's got to be in there except we don't have it in our current Charter because
the only thing that we petition to is the town meeting and what I'm saying is we need to try to stop petitioning it to the town meeting and petition it to a referendum to to move on and currently for ordinances it because the legislative body is the people people of the town of and elor that is why we have to bring ordinances to town meeting whether it be a special town meeting usually it is a special town it's always a special town meeting right the only town meeting that's scheduled is the budget town meeting but you know special town meeting Jeff I I like this because I like the streamlined component of it but it gives me a little bit of heartburn because it kind of brings up the notion of the relative strength and authority of the town meeting versus the Board of Selectmen who gets the the power to do what where are where are the limits on that Authority and and that still stays a little bit vague in my
mind I because it's the legislative power that's given to the people and now we're we're taking it away even though we're providing them with a petition process that's clearly spelled out you just need to get a petition with about 40 people's signature on it and we are forcing this to the referendum there's no if the are buts about it but still like what Bob is saying we are taking the authority away from the legislative body uses of the well what we're doing is we're taking it away from the potential 40 people that attend a town meeting and giving it to all of the people who come and vote and and that's what you're doing you're not you're not making it a you know you're not you're you're sitting there with the the town meeting and first of all you're making you're making it much more easy to to to tackle problems at the board of selectman level and very quickly and very easily that's one and then what you're doing is you're providing the town with the opportunity to vote on something if they choose to and and I would sit there and say any ordinance even one that's on the books could be petitioned I I don't want to limit this
to just the newest of ordinances every ordinance at any time should be able to be petitioned if it's if it's deemed not worthy by a group of residents but what I'm trying to get to is it just like the charter revision going here at this time to try to get on the presidential election it's try to get the most participation within town and and that's what I'm driving at like you could put up a an ordinance and you get 45 people at a town meeting and they're dict everything that happens for the other you know 27 2500 voting residents of the Town whereas you're at a an election or at a referendum you're giving them all they don't all show I mean Carol what do we average 40 50 60% of the people come
to vote that but you could have the same 45 people show up at the referendum so I hear what Bob is saying because the legislative body whether it's for or 5050 or 76 like our last town were taking their voice away and I know that you're an elected Board of five but we're giving it to a board of five then someone has to motivated to go out and collect 40 signatur for s for referendum and we may still only have the same 45 people show up at the referendum to vote well not if the referendums are always dictated on November you know and and you're saying rather than have a referendum so if you enact an ordinance in January someone petitions within 20 days we're going to hold off that question until the November election regardless of whether or not I mean you don't know we've waited so long on so many things what's the difference if somebody wants to do that and I'm I'm okay it's just like is are there going to be 21 residents or are there going to be 40 some OD residents come out and U and
it probably will happen so I probably shouldn't say it but come out on the dog ordinance that I mean the litter you know the way I think it was phrased in our meeting was dog and litter ordinance we haven't drafted it we have talked to the town attorney but that was the issue so now if you let's sit there and say we to do this and we had 2% of the residents of the electors of the town so basically 48 people came out and said we're not going to accept this I would tell you yeah let's put it on the November ballot why not I mean why it's the our town of Andover moves pretty slow as it is but if it gets past the 21 the and it's not a 21 day it was a 45 day because Adrian requested at additional time and I was okay with additional time but if we were to follow the power of overrule ordinances with Section B says the selectman shall call a special referendum be held within 30 days of the certification of so why not why not say Carol that the ordinance does not go into effect and gets put on the next acceptable ballot it can weit like it's not going to I I guess we could do that but then again you could be forcing someone to wait 11 months to have their question that theyve petitioned go on a ballot I but I I wouldn't we wouldn't put it in effect no
no and I hear what you're saying but the people who go out and take the time to get the petition signed are now waiting 11 months result and I I hear what you're saying I see you laughing but the thing is is that we're trying to avoid special meetings right so a lot of these ordinances are coming into effect and people aren't happy with it they could be petition yeah but but but I think I thought what I heard Jeff say is that if you invoked the petition to referendum and you were successful in getting the amount you have you say that puts a stay on that ordinance until the election so it doesn't go in effect until the town actually votes on it so Carol really it it's kind of a good way I it's kind of taking what kein has and modifying a bit I I'm actually giving more authority to those 45 people that want to sit there and challenge this I'm not giving less I'm sitting there saying hey if you think that this is a bad decision for the town and you want to put it forth okay put it forth and we'll stay it till a general election Carol if I'm the first Elman I'm waiting to the budget meeting to put my ordinance forth anyway so to be really honest it's gonna sit and just stay right until there's an organized meeting so that the town doesn't waste any money so if you're going to if you ask if you want to give everybody the appropr L it's a 45-day wait till be enacted so let's sit there and say we pass an ordinance next month right we
have a 45 day wait till it can go into effect if someone sits there and gathers the number of signatures required it would have to then go on the next ballot and I might even miss November because I don't it's not enough time right it could potentially Miss November to get on the ballot for referendum I me is the first as a selectman I'd be okay push it all the way I want it in place I'm thinking I'm doing the right thing for the community but if there's enough Community backlash I'm not negative to backlash I I just we got to overcome it so but but what if we're talking about an ordinance that has to deal with with public health and safety you know it seems trivial but the dog poop in the park so you guys pass an ordinance somebody petitions that no we don't want that now we've got to wait until November that's an awful lot of poop building up in the meantime so on the One Hand by not having to go to town meeting we've streamlined the process but by the same token if it has to go to general election now we've slowed it down again slowed it down one way or the other so I'm trying to pick the the one that I think is going to be the least Rocky and I think as long as we don't do as long as the board of Selectmen does not do something crazy I don't NE necessarily think you're going to have
push back this comes back to what what you're saying and what Jody says and and you know a lot of what you see in Washington at certain times yes our system is predicated upon people acting rationally and honorably that's the only thing we've done so I I I'm I'm sitting there saying that I I think that the Andover Board of Selectmen is rational and they're not going to put up anything that's so crazy that there's going to be an ungodly amount so we have to have a public hearing so we've already agreed there's a public hearing before we it even gets approved then there would be a 45-day waiting period to get enacted to allow residents to sit there and collect enough signatures to push back against it and then if they gather the right amount of signatures it gets pushed off until the next regularly scheduled election I don't see how more common sense and fair it could be I think I think that does a good job of giving the board of selectman latitude to act but then has that checks and balances for the town to say whoa hold on a second and and I think I think you
know as long as the they act in a way that 45 people aren't going to get it an uproar over then you know the common sense thing like that you know there's already signs posted don't walk your dog there but so to me it has that right balance I'm sorry Carol I cut you off go ahead I I just I been kind of looking at other towns Charters and that like minor ordinance definitions and there was one that said to maintain public health and safety zoning behavior and general welfare and then they gave examples of they said noise no remov pet restrict building and zoning regulations those are just some that I notated after I looked at that so there is a way if were to Define minor versus major they could do that in a general
way like this maybe add a little more give a few more examples but I do agree if we are going to move forward with allowing of Select to take that legislative authority to create the ordinances we do have to have that script wait can you send around the Hein language that sort of has has it going to town referendum I mean or may maybe were you going to send that to Jeff and was he G to updated I can because I think that's the Safeguard that's the that's the way that we make sure that as towns folks that nothing goes you know that's and I don't I don't think we have to you know the minor and the major are still just I think even with General categories I think that's what'll lead to confusion it's almost like you know ask for a little bit of ask for forgiveness as opposed to asking for permission so what we're doing here is we're giving our town leaders that we've all elected the ability to enact Common Sense ordinance without asking for permission right they're not taking it to town meeting they're they're they're acting they're doing something but we as a town have recourse to say no that's crazy don't do that it sounds like we're all in general consensus with the concept as it's been
discussed and and modified and it sounds like there's some additional language that needs to be put in from what Jeff has presented today to get this to a a final concept everybody agree on that so I still need a little bit of work to do so Carol you share you share that with me and and what what I'm taking from the conversation is that if someone petitions to go to referendum and successful with the numbers within the 45 day time frame right so we've extended the time frame because we have a a 21-day time frame somewhere in our Charter and we're increasing that to 45 days so we delay implementation for the 45 days and then if someone is successful in gathering the signatures to petition for a town referendum we hold off implementation until the referendum vote when that occurs and and I'm a believer that it happens at a normal election to to allow for the M the most I don't want to special things upset me because like we call a special meeting or we call a special Town town meeting or we call a special referendum they're all added time added money that that I'm not I'm not a big proponent of so I would rather push it all the way to the election and and delay it so everybody gets their Fair hearing on it and if the board of
Selectmen wants to put forth a an ordinance and it gets past the 45 days then it goes into effect then it's in effect though so let's just all be clear it's in effect people can then after the 45 days determine that they don't like the ordinance and petition again but it's in effect until the next election when it gets voted on again right is that fair right is that Common Sense what I'm explaining so I'll sit there and go rebuild that Carol if you share me the the petitioned referend language I'll sit there and have this for next meeting so that we can all okay agree I'll get let me just run
one one additional scenario so the the board of Selectmen passes an ordinance and the town petitions and says no you know this needs to to go to referendum the board of Selectmen thinks that this item needs to be worked on needs to be acted upon so strongly they could then withdraw that ordinance modify it and perhaps that modified ordinance now goes into effect and so you don't have to wait until the election for for an up or up or down I I I agree with that I mean I would also think honestly that that would probably happen at the public hearing you know the assumption is that we're having a public hearing we're going through all of the steps to try to get something done so people who are negative to an ordinance would hopefully come to the public hearing and give us their opinion and tell us hey we don't like this this is what you really need to be doing and then we would hopefully write that into our new ordinance so it would take that issue off the table so that the resident doesn't try to go out and get 45 signatures or 48 signatures
so I mean listen nothing happens in a vacuum the I mean you can't sit there and get things done on on the board because you have to have enough votes to get people to agree to it and if the community doesn't agree with it we just need to give them res recourse to sit there and say hey we don't like what you're doing and you got to change so I have no problem doing that because I don't sit there and anticipate putting forth any ordinance that the members of our board here would sit there and have a huge problem with so I I I have no problem let me do it let me come back to you guys again I'll give you the more of the language and then you guys can sit there and but review what I've given you already so that you're familiar with those sections and we're we're comfortable with what is changing or would change I shouldn't say is changing but potentially will change so great stuff Jeff thank you very much Carol okay I'm ready now Okay so if we were to decide to vote on the same day as the ram budget referendum we would have to move our dates up that are in the charter section
802 so what I did because Hein has already done this I just took language from their Charter and some of the dates from their Charter so under Section 802 duties on the budget we would add no later than October 15th the board of Finance shall confer with the board of Selectmen and the Board of Education to discuss the goals and objectives for the upcoming budget the board of Finance may suggest a Target increase for expenditures for both The General government and Board of Education budgets however the target increases shall not be binding with respect to budget transmittance so that would be sections 802a then if you go down to 802b agency and department heads we would delete the 120 days and we would put 15 days and then the next sentence the head of each department officer agency of the Town supported wholly or in part by Town funds except the regional board of education and the local Board of Education shall file with the Town Administrator a detailed estimate of expenditures to be made by that department office or agency and the revenues other than property taxes be collected thereby in the ensuing fiscal year such estimate shall be accompanied by a statement setting forth the
services activities and work accomplished during the current year and plan for accomplishment in the ensuing fiscal year the local board of education budget must be submitted to the board of Finance by February 15 then section c we would add duties of the Town Administrator the Town Administrator shall review the budget estimates upon completion of the review and not later than 120 days prior to the end of the fiscal year the Town Administrator shall present to the board of Selectmen and the board of finance a proposed budget in preparing the proposed budget the Town Administrator make comment and make recommendations on the budget requests made by various departments offices and agents and then we would add section D where it would say there shall be budget review meetings in March which shall be joint meetings of the board of Selectmen and the board of Finance where a quum of at least one of the two boards is required to conduct
business then section e would remain the same the only thing that we would do is after the first sentence the board of Finance shall review the budget estimates with the heads of all Town supported departments offices and agencies as needed I would just suggest that we put in as needed because if the board of Finance deems that that review is not necessary with the heads of the department they could just move forward and then if we were to add section e with a one after it upon completion of the review and not later than 85 days prior to the end of the fiscal year the board of Finance shall hold a public hearing on their recommended budget then we'll keep all the sections that dictate the requirements that what the proposed budget should include okay and then everything would stay the same right hrough then when we go to section 803 the annual Town budget meeting and referendum instead of being held in one of the first 10 days we would now put in the annual town budget meeting shall be held in the second week of April the proposed budget shall be the only substantive met matter presented to the annual Town budget meeting for adoption pursuant to the provisions of this section it is the intent of this Charter that the provisions of the general statutes governing Town meetings as contained in section 7-7 shall not apply to the adoption of this budget then if you move down to 803b we would delete the first sentence if a quorum you know starting with if a Quin all the way down to adopt or reject the
budget we would remove the first two and a half lines and then pick up with the town meeting May make amendments to the proposed budget however that the town meeting shall only have the power to reduce or modify but not increase the budget or anything in there and then keep the town meeting may not alter any specific items contained in the budget proposed by the local Board of then we would remove the next line that says if the budget is rejected all the way down so it would be three and little over three lines and then we would insert the town meeting sh adjourn to a referendum to be held on the Tuesday following the 1st Monday May and leave in that voting by absentee ballot at referendum is allowed so and then basically the remainder of the sections would just be so 803d would just be modified because it talks about the next town meeting if the budget is rejected so just a few of the lines in that would be removed but basically what I've read is the only way really for us to redo our Charter so that we are able to vote with the ram budget referend and I will send it I just I don't know how to share my screen so I will send this over I've highlighted in yellow what I'm suggesting that we
remove and in red I've added what language we would put in in its place that would be helpful for me to see it so I could I could read it and ask questions back I don't think I I was trying to do the the timing in my head I don't think any of that really would put any of the Departments out I don't either I know it wouldn't affect my department because the board of Selectmen is asking Eric to gather that information in December anyway so we all basically have a general idea of what's going to be coming up in the next fiscal year be able to properly budget for that and let you know so so if we're talking about the biggest change to what we're doing other than timing for the individuals the individual departments the biggest change that we're doing is we're not asking the town meeting to vote the budget up or down we're asking the town meeting to make recommendations for any adjustments down that they believe they want and if the town meeting approves those Downs that's the budget that goes to referendum correct because that's the only way to do that because if we were to allow the town meeting to not send that budget forward to referendum we would not be able to meet that statutory requirement for the ram referendum okay so so just as we all think about this what we're doing is we're allowing the individuals at the town meeting to come and and evaluate and make recommendations especially downward recommendations you know that's what they're allowed to do right now anyway at our annual bug and and those
downward recom recommendations if are if they are approved become part of the budget that ends up at referendum and so now we're moving the up and down vote from the the town meeting to town referendum so we're giving a bigger pool of individuals the opportunity to vote on that budget that is correct okay I don't have any problem with it I mean I'd like to see it written so I could understand what we're the language we're trying to change and how we would get this to the town attorney but I I don't have a problem with it I will send that out and I can forward this over to Dennis to so he can I we would want him to do that anyway just to make sure that I'm not omitting anything that legally we have to have in there m all right so it sounds like this is kind of in the same boat as what what Jeff did you'll circulate it around we can all look at it we can bring it back to the floor next week and hopefully put it to bed at that point okay well I think I'm up at this point not having a first Selectmen elected and instead have a chairperson like in the board of Selectmen like in the Board of Education Board of Finance so I went back and spent a little bit more time looking at the Connecticut General statutes which put me to sleep several times it's quite a mind-numbing set of documents but I didn't find anything in there that really jumped off the page now granted I'm an electrical engineer I'm not a
lawyer I'm not a professional Statesman but what I ended up doing was going back to the the charter as we have now and I'm going to share my screen here so you can all see what I did here okay are you all getting that you see the charter over here on the right here that I'm moving around yeah we see it on the right side yeah okay well it looks like I just minimized a whole bunch of other documents so it should just be that one document okay let me make a big actually that doesn't really help so I'm going to start up at the top so I just did a search for first selectman and it appears 27 times in the document and I just wanted to here let me just start right from the top and obviously there's a chapter on it the first place that it's mentioned is in town officers general
election so we would take out one of whom shall be a designated nominee for the office of first selectman a political party May nominate no more than four members this was the discussion that we had last week if we're going to take this out so that's no well no no I wasn't in favor of it I researched it so still leave it at three yes we didn't make yes okay unless someone wanted the motion make a Rec a motion for it I would leave it at three yeah all right I I was I like I'm following your method you want to understand what are the ramifications of CH select just went went through the document so we'll just leave it at three okay political party May nominate no more than three members and we strike the language of the designated nominee for the office of first selectman okay moving forward this town meeting procedure there's still Court called to order by the first selectman or vice verse selectman that doesn't really need to change again in Bob you would just change the name right you would call it the would there still be a first selectman or would it called chairperson of no there's there's enough language in the general statutes that I think we would leave it as the first selectman because there are still duties that that individual duties and responsibilities that that person has essentially we're just we're not making it elected we're making it appointed by the board of Selectmen right that's what I you know the homework that I wanted to do was are we gonna run a foul of the the general statutes by by doing this and I didn't really see anything that that jumped off
the page so let me just keep keep going through this so you know Town meetings calling to order the first selectman blah blah blah so that's just some procedures there whoops what did I just close there review new navigation pan here we go click the wrong button there so n all right his is again just stuff that happens in the town meeting where the first selectman is really just in a moderator capacity this talks about the general the board of Selectmen and how pre prior to this the board by a majority vote would select the vice first selectman while we add a first selectman and a vice first selectman by majority vote and again just a little change in language here these positions such positions etc etc moving forward public emergencies the Town Administrator or the first selectman can deputize people summon Marshall etc etc and this is the first Selectmen acting in their capacity as chief of police and again what does it say in the the general statutes well there are some towns that have appointed Chiefs of police as well as elected ones so there's no real loss of applicability there we go to chapter five that talks specifically about the first selectman we strike the first selectman shall be
the chief elected officer of the town since he's no longer the chief elect officer but remains a voting and participating member of the board and an ex officio member of the other Town commission's boards and agencies so there the first selectman doesn't vote on these other agencies boards but can attend their meetings and speak up except as otherwise provided by the charter she'll have all the powers duties and responsibilities conferred by law again this doesn't really change except it's an appointed versus a separately elected position let me see so here now this is something I just kind of Applied my own judgment this talks about the town attorney he shall upon written request of the first selectman or Board of Selectmen well I struck first Selectmen and I just left Board of Selectmen it seems to me do we want to leave the First selectman with the independent authority to Marshall the town attorney and forward things you know questions of Law and whatnot or should that just be at the request of the board of Selectmen I don't really know what do you think yourself you're probably gonna have to leave that one
because while currently we have a town attorney that is extremely flexible we're not going to always have that town attorney and if you give the Authority for every member to be able to communicate causes a causes a problem well I think when we say upon written request of the board of Selectmen maybe it needs additional language upon a written request of a majority of the board of Selectmen so it requires consensus let the attorney sit there and and and weigh in on that one okay I mean he's going to look at all this stuff also so all right we'll leave that as it as it
stands for the attorney's feedback and again I don't think there are any other changes in here I just have you know the the search located the places where first selectman appears and I don't think it really changes the rights responsibilities or actions here checks shall be signed by the Town Administrator and the absence or inability of the Town Administrator the first selectman shall act for the Town Administrator should that be the Town Administrator should it be the town clerk Carol any thoughts on that and I'm sorry for Bing yeah for selecting I'm just throwing out ideas here since checks it's check signing Carol does not want that car no I I don't I I mean I I will do that if if you need me to I mean that's I don't have that right now and I'm just asking what makes the most sense I leave it as it is we leave it as it is I mean I am in the building so if it's good for the town I don't mind signing checks why don't you why don't you we have a financial officer in town we do a town Treasurer and a town finance individual right we have lots of people that could potentially do this but the problem is I think when they're writing the checks they don't want to be the signer so that's problem because it used to be I think it was you Jeff and then Adrian was also a signer so there was another member of board of Selectmen who could sign we had the vice versa been sign right so is Jeff currently a signer too or no I don't believe that he got put on the the card I think I'm I'm it with right now it's myself Eric
and the superintendent of schools just keep going you can sure we can sit adding device for Selectmen yeah obviously okay resignations copy forwarded to the first selectman and the chairman of said agency I don't see any reason to change that he okay this is the transition stuff from 1999 we leave that language in here and what I've added here is a new section two at the regular municipal election to be held in November 2027 there shall be elected five members for a term of four years the prior practice for separately electing a first selectman shall be discontinued at this time so that's just like the prior transition language when the charter was enacted this just supersedes what was there we could take out what was there we could leave it there for historical purposes I say let's just leave it there
I just asked you to back up to the resignation part case okay yeah so it says said resignation shall become effective upon acceptance by the vote of the board of Selectmen that has absolutely nothing to do with someone's resignation the minute that they sign it and they turn it in here to the town clerk's office that's the date of their resignation so I I just I I don't know why that's in there because if je wanted to resign tomorrow he doesn't care if the rest of the board of Selectmen accepts it or not his resignation is effective the day he tells me or tells the town it's effective in his letter of resignation can I do that no
but I'm just saying I'm just saying that is what happens it is immediately when you bring it in here and it's stamp in all right well you see what I just did here said resignation shall become effective upon receipt by the town clerk's office thank you that's the law that's not me but that's immediately okay I don't I don't know if it's effective immediately it's like someone could resign right so it's based on the resignation letter or whatever right it's effective the date stated in the resignation letter so we get rid of the entire language yeah when in doubt don't have it yeah all right moving forward on first selectman resignation by town clerk shall be filled with the first Selectmen that is bring that res to not not to the Town Administrator no the first select okay is that state low also I will check the statute but we do we need to change like Jeff was saying some of spelling errors yeah did we first select man uhhuh resignations make it invold that's what this bar right here is I'm doing markup within word okay anybody who works with word understands
that this is a change here and that's it's automatically doing these strikeouts and changing the the font and everything right right what I'm saying is up above section 10:9 savings clause that's bold so section 1010 resignations should say bold oh all in bold that's just yeah okay a formatting change I got you okay sorry about that no format's important also all right moving forward here first to the first select man yeah first selector but whatever wait wait wait we I'm sorry we're changing that what selectman it was me it was men plural got thank you okay thank you appreciate that yeah it's subtle but important I understand yeah thank you okay right this we were we were at this right we covered that that's it bob where was their language that described the process of the board of Selectmen selecting the first Selectmen was that in there yes I'll find it okay so under chapter 4 Board of Selectmen 403 the prior procedure was at the first meeting you know following the town election the board of Selectmen shall fix a time and place of its regular meeting at this meeting the board by a majority vote of the entire membership shall select a it just was vice ver selectman and I added first selectman and a so that it's both both positions thank you and then there's some additional language here that basically says if they can't do it at that meeting
they got to do it at the next meeting and again made it more inclusive to to show both positions and is it implied or do we need to specify that that first selectman is one of the elected Selectmen I think the prior language in here says that the first selectman is a an elected member yeah I would just wanted to be clear that you know the the the five people couldn't say oh well let's put someone else in or something funky like that yeah you know it might have been something that was covered by the fact one of whom shall be the designated nominee of the office of the first selectman and when we remove that then the implication that you're talking about kind of goes away also I mean that's a subtle point but I think it's important yeah I was just reflecting on National politics and speak of the house and they anybody could be speaker of the house right which kind of weird right and so I was like I want to make sure it's one of the five were appointed I mean sorry elected of the five similar to I think how you the the Board of Ed probably has something like that or maybe it doesn't right that's
how the Board of Ed Works in town and board of Finance so I don't it's easy right here okay from the board's elected membership membership you know that's that's one way to put that language in there works for me thanks Bob yeah and we'll see what Dennis does with that language okay ask one question on that I know Jody that you had said keep it at three so basically what we're doing is still only giving the electors six people to vote for and the only thing that we're doing is we're removing the first selectman race because currently the way our Charters is that the candidate who was not elected as first selectman would then be thrown into the pool of four Bo of Select so we're still limiting the electors in town you know our voters in town to the same number six people and I'm just curious why you wouldn't want to increase that amount give our voters or candidates to vote for rather than restricting and limiting just to the same six that they currently are
able to vote for so Carol we're Li liting the number that can be nominated by each of the two major parties okay somebody can always as many people as you want could could petition and run as Independents couldn't they they can still do that now but what I'm saying is if our Charter is still restricting just to the same six the same number of candidates the only thing is we're just eliminating the office of first select St strip strip the number of of people that can be put up out totally and they'll put up three so go ahead it it's it only makes sense from a political standpoint that you can eliminate the the number of of candidates from each party like they can put up 10 if they'd like well they would have to go by Statute then Jeff I mean by the election rules not statute but election rules as to the number of candidates that they about so like if there's four seats up on the board of Finance each party can put up four candidates the only one that that doesn't apply to is the restrictive voting on our local Board of Education where each party can put up two well I think that's why they're doing it it was done originally and I I will tell you what Jody's logic when jod I read reread Jody's information on it and he asked the question why would any party put up more than three people when the maximum number of of your representative total can only be three so if you put up four you're then deluding your vote to your total so you
can get rid of the number and and that's okay and then a party can put up four or five but they're really not going to do it because if if a party puts up five and dutes its vote and what's going to happen is it's only going to get two members on the board and the goal is for each one of these parties they what they want but they're not deluding to vote because the number that each political party is allowed to put on the ballot is the number that the elector can vote well if they're going to vote for you they're going to vote for you any we're just giving the extra see what I'm saying so it is not deluding vote the only thing that could potentially happen is if all if if the Democrats put up five candidates and all five are the top vote gets they will not be seated the three top vote Getters will be seated and the two top vote getting Republic an would then be seen because of the minority representation requirement of our Charter you didn't have that Minority rep it could be four in one based on statute minority and what I'm saying is if you feel that it's it's it's appropriate to give a party the more opportunity to put more people up for a position and the selectman eliminate the total you can
put up 10 people if it would fit on the ballot and statutorily we could get away with it go ahead or just leave it without no more the political leave that sentence out so that the political party just can nominate the number that elections allow them Carol when you when people vote they can make three selections correct is that right no first SE first SE I'm sorry we're restricting that by saying that each party can nominate no more than three so we're restricting that in our Charter to the three and just for example Board of Finance each party at our major municipal can nominate four members four candidates so electors can vote for four people so if you're eliminating the number restriction in our Charter as to the number that they can
nominate the number that the political party can nominate is the number that the elector can vote got it so your your suggesting [Music] that let's say we make it four we increase it I walk into that Ballot Box I could put the four across on the Republican or four across on the Democrat but really the top five vote Getters across all of them are going to be it and no but no but no I'm sorry the there can only be three from one party as a majority and two from could be any other party okay so you're suggesting for but I guess I still see I I like Jeff's suggestion that we just eliminate that sentence and we don't restrict and how many and then how many do you have people vote for when they walk in they vote for the same number that the political party can nominate so if what if one party puts up four and one party puts up three what would you do they did an under endorsement because if if when I get the list and I send it out to the town committee chair they have to send me the number of candidates that they're indorse it if there are five spaces open and they do not nominate five candidates that's an under endorsement on their part there's nothing that we can do about that but
they have the option to nominate five candidates and give the voters of Handover those 10 people okay to El but but what you're suggesting Carol is is is changing the number because what Jody asked before was how many how many candidates can you vote for at an election and currently you get to put one vote on the first selectman line so those two candidates there's one one to one and then when you get down to the other candidates that are running just for the select board currently you can only vote for two so it's three okay yeah
right so so that's the current situation What car what Carol is saying is she' say you vote for five and you put up whatever candidate you want but that's what I think that's what you're trying to okay you're trying that is what I'm saying because then it would be state law as to how many we'd be able to vote rather than restrip not only how many we could vote for but also the number that political party so so what you're asking what you're asking is for every resident to vote for all of the members of the board that they want to have elected all of them right because if we are eliminating the office of person which it sounds like everyone is in favor of doing that no we've never voted on that I'm just no no but I'm saying it sounds the idea that that's the idea that's out there is what I'm saying okay so if we were keeping the office of first select and then one would run against the other and whoever was not elected just would be out of the race and then if we were keeping it that way and then I'm just suggesting to allow the to remove that line and just
allow political parties to put up four candidates for Board of select one for first sment or for Board of Select so then there's more options out there for the voter if we decide to eliminate the office of first selectman and just do Board of Selectmen select board whatever we're going to call them group then gives the electors the right oh our political parties to put up their five people and our electors to vote for the five that they want but you're still having a five-person board with the majority of one party only being three is that is that in the in your scenario I I'm not I haven't even gone over there as far as the minority rep because again our Charter increases minority rep requirement on our Board of Selectmen and our local Board of Education I'm not suggesting anything about that at this point if the charter review commission wants to look at that and so assume assume those I guess I'm just trying to play your scenario so you say assume those are still in play with a political party can put up five the voter can pick five and the minority representation still holds okay right because that's
happened on other boards Jody because if the makeup of a board is of a five member board there's two candidates that are up when in our upcoming 2025 election okay so let's say that each party puts up two candidates but right now the makeup of that board is three Republicans and let's say that the two Republicans in the 2025 election are the top vote get one of those will not be seated due to the minority representation requirements so the lowest vote getting Republican will not be seated the top vote getting Democrat will be because minority rep comes into play and this has happened in the past where someone who is receives the most votes at the election is not seated because minority rep and again just working through the possibilities if it's three and three for five positions then basically just the one person who gets the least amount of votes doesn't get elected and you're always going to have three of one party and two of the other right unless there's a third party candidate potentially right right
there's three of one maximum of one party but then if they are a petitioning candidate and they are a registered Republican they are Republican minority they're unaffiliated or a minor party that's when there's a differ well one of the ongoing points of discussion is that as it stands now we have trouble finding enough people for there to be a competitive election so I don't know that increasing the number of allowed candidates for each party really changes anything can I can I just tell you this I when people have been coming into my office since we started this new Charter revision because that's what I've been hearing a lot is that we can't get people and this we put out on our Facebook page we sent a text we sent people who sign up for the different emergencies we let them know about this we had 14 people sign up for this board Commission we had a number of people signing up wanting to be on the field committee the the boards and commissions that we put that information out there to people and we tell them how to go about getting their name on the list to be on there they come forward I have been just asking people as they come into my office since we started this I ask them if they mind my asking them a question and maybe putting them on the spot spot and I asked how would you go about if you wanted to be on the board of education or the board of Finance or you want to be the talent flirt how would you go about doing that and I have not had one person who knew how to do that and and it's it's
just people don't understand there's a process there's a time frame you have to talk to your respective Town committee if you're unaffiliated go to both Town committees and ask them for the endorsement but people honestly don't know so if we were to put an effort in there with in our town resources to get this information we get everything out to the people why can't we do that send that out hey there's a municipal election coming up in 2025 we're going to be filling three seats on our Board of Finance we're going to be filling two seats on our local sorry three seats on our local Board of Education we're going to be filling two seats on our Fire Commission two on planning and Zing you know get that information out if you would like to be on the ballot these are the ways that you do it the Democratic town committee is having their cus on this date Republican Town committee on this date call the respective Town chair and ask where it's at you know if you need any information and go out there I I do think we'd have more people interested if they understood the process and the deadlines thank you that's all very useful very relevant stuff can we circle around to the the subject at hand here and try to come to some sort of conclusion on it three four leave it at three no I think Carol's I I think Carol's point is valid just eliminate the number any party can put up what they want I am telling you I mean Carol just from my standpoint the Republicans
and the Democrats are going to put up what will make the most sense mathematically for them to get people positioned on the boards but I agree with you now the the bigger question is is eliminate the number of candidates right eliminate the number of candidates how many people can you vote for is a bigger question Carol yeah that dictates how many how many party will put up check on that additionally it is the number of seats that are available are the number that the party can nominate and that the elector can vote for okay so so let's just let's just say we we we let's sit there and say we kept what we're currently doing that means means that would mean that the first selectman candidates would run against each other and there would only be one vote for that seat and then the current process would mean that for the SE rest of the select board you'd have
four votes not two that you currently have right right okay I'm I'm just telling you if if that's how it would go I would support that so if you had five let's sit there and say for some reason and somehow the fir elimination of the first Selectmen occurred you would then have five votes for the select board and the parties could put up whatever number of candidates they wanted but we would still have a three to2 split the majority party could only have three members right if the charter stays like that with the minority rep but they the party could still only put up you know their the maximum number allowed but if they under and so it would be the three highest vote Getters from one you'd look at the five highest vote well actually I don't know how you do you just you just rank it you rank it one through five and if four of the members are from one party you take the sixth person and bring them in it happened in 2014 okay that was a really odd election because we had two petitioning people we had a lot of people running so okay well I re-shared I just struck the whole thing if you know I mean striking the number of potential candidates they can put up doesn't do anything to the parties it gives it gives potentially us options to get more candidates but in my head I'm thinking the individual parties are only going to put up what mathematically makes sense to them which is what Jody said in his original piece but if you strike it it allows them it allows Carol and the town to go forward and say hey run and you
know get on the ballot which I'm all for I and I'm not opposed to it either striking it I think the so then the then the question is you were asking them to pick five and so it adds a interesting Dynamic I mean I guess if you're a political party you're probably going to want to have well you could want you could say I want five on the ballot because I want everyone in my party to be able to not cross Vote or you could say I only want three because I want my party to you know concentrate the vote there's a level of gamesmanship there's a level of strategy that I think comes into play that doesn't happen today and if that's if that's our intent you could tell your
your your party vote for the three strongest Democrats and the two weakest Republicans you know or you know it's there's a lot of different strategies that could that could come into play and if that is the strategy of a party they can under endorse and only put up their three candidates but you don't know who's going to be most popular with to vote you might think someone's a really strong candidate they don't make it at so you know it's it's interesting how things turn out that's all I'm I mean I mean the listen just for me if the if the first seleman race was and let's I'm just sitting there with what we're currently dealing with so speak to what you're dealing with right now Bob and trying to go through if the first Selman was was win or take all you would see different things happen in our town if you just make the first San race win or take all then it becomes very different because that first person normally gets thrown back into the pool and normally the elections are close enough that that person has a greater mathematical chance of getting a seat than someone running for the straight election what do you mean winner take call if the first selectman race is is you know the winner is the first selectman and the loser is not on the board of selectman and has no chance to
get thrown back into the pool then it really does it would clean up a lot of what has happened in the past within our town I mean I'm just saying that's that's the truth you know so you now as a now as a as a party you have to determine if you're putting your best candidate up running for first selectman when they may lose and then they're out because right now like it happened in this cycle an cre and the Democrats got voted very heavily for Anne cre and she got she got a lot of votes and you know Adrian and I ran for first Selectmen and Adrian lost by more votes and he was not you know he did not continue on the board of Selectmen he didn't get enough votes he didn't get enough votes now if Adrien had had been in the pool for the selectman he he may have gotten enough votes so to me I don't mind Carol's proposal of eliminating the number that they can put up I tell Carol I would go to Carol and I would go if I was advising and the
Republicans or the Democrats I would tell them you really got to do the math to understand how many people you can get and who you want to get on and what you want to do so but if you eliminate the pool opportunity for the first selectman candidate you you would clean up a lot of problems within the town but but you're so I think you know Adrien I think had suggested that we last time we we we settle that first whe are we are we moving to the sort of first being that you know appointed from the board of Select I have told I have told the whole group I'm not in favor of this and there's a reason I'm not in favor of it because we're not a seven member board as a five member board it's much more difficult and I can give you a just a plain example the board of education is a seven- member board and they elected a a new chairperson there's there's the ability to to to make decisions on a seven member board that are different from a from a three- member board and it's just my opinion I would I do not want to sit
there and see this on the board of selecting with a five member I was the one who who brought it up because I would have done this at a Town Council with a seven member board because it makes sense and you have off elections you have you have a a four and a three and so there's always new people coming in there's new potentially new people going out it works on that type of board I really don't think it's the right thing to do on a five member board when all five are running at the same time that's just my opinion you guys can put it up and as I've been saying it's got to get to the board of Selectmen and it's got to get voted on by the board of Selectmen and I'm going to vote no there too I see V both sides to it because we have a lot of five member boards that vote for their chairman our Fire Commission even appointed boards like the library Recreation you know and none of them and none of them are the the lead organization within the town and have the the the issues in front of them that the town does and there's a you know Carol for recre commission when we when we appoint it you know yes you appoint your
chairperson and and I have no problem with those because you're not electing you're not potentially electing the chairperson for that Committee in the board of Selectmen we're currently electing the chairperson for that committee so I I mean that's just my opinion Jeff I don't understand why five versus seven why help I'm sorry I I missed your your point you're saying if it was a seven-person board even if it wasn't a combined my sense is you think the number seven is important versus a five person well on the seven member boards that we currently have in town we have off elections so four members are coming in in one cycle two years and then three the next twoyear cycle and so electing or appointing that chairperson makes sense to me but also Jody there's there's an extra two people if there's five people on a board
to to gather the three necessary votes are a lot easier than to gather that extra vote that you need on a seven person I'm just saying that's just my opinion how I sit there and look at it and what will end up happening every time is that the the party at least in the board of Selectmen the party with primarily the party that wins the three the three members will pick one of their members for the board they may not pick the best person for the board they're going to pick the best out of their three and that's how it currently works so I recommended it I I would recommend it for a seven member board if you made the board of selectman seven members and you made four members run one period and three members run another period I would do it but that's why I
was trying to go to the Town Council because you could shrink the total number that we're currently trying to to get to run of 12 down to seven so you're Li you're you're merging five seats you're taking five people qualified people and you're hoping to get an election of of qualified people and the biggest thing in our town is just having smart Common Sense people in these positions and I'm just I'm against it Jody so you may you may sit there and think a five member group can do it easily but there's so much politics in everything we do even in this even in a small board
and the way that we're running currently they're still politics oh i' I've felt it personally so I know what you're describing so Jeff think a seven person like what I wanted to have happen would have happened so I do know what you mean so Jeff Town Council notwithstanding would you be in favor of a seveners board of Selectmen staggered terms with with a an an you know chosen internally first selectman no because and the reason I wouldn't is one it's you're just adding more layers of people and I know what Carol's saying people would run and it it's just not what I've seen occur out there and on the same note with the first s in giving the voters you know 300 400 people the option to vote they want as first leftman versus a board now I don't know that I honestly think that people are just going to say OG gee I'm a republican I'm going to vote a republican because there's three of us on the board or vice versa I'm a Democrat I'm GNA vote for the Democrat because there's three of us on the board I don't think we've seen that on any of our boards I know pnz when they're sitting there I I think
that people don't always vote party lines like that so so I do think that let's go back to 2014 and the situation that we're in before I ran and you know and I know I spent four years on that board and I got zero accomplished because of the group of people I had on that board so I I I'm telling you it's politics Carol you you know it you live it you've dealt with it and it's it's not going to change and and I the only way to do it is to sit there and and in my head have a bigger board and change the type of government we have because then you'll get really
good c i I believe I would believe you would get really good candidates as best you possibly can because you take the best people running on the board of finance and the best people running on the board of Selectmen and you get more people to come in because it would would just be a an open race so okay we' we've kind of talked this one to death and it's all great stuff I'm gonna take the stuff that I've done in the marked up Charter here condense it down to something that I can send to jod and that'll get circulated around so we can all look at it concisely again like the other things I'm going to stop sharing here if that's okay not just
sending it to me send it to everybody B yeah okay and then I know Carol you have that individual I'm sorry I forget the the town clerk person not town clerk I'm sorry petition the petition for the ordinances I'll send that out and mine I'll send my copy I don't know how no there's an individual that's can help us put packet together I forgot that person's name in town office support person right so Kate can do that but what I can do as an attachment is just I know what you're saying about the packet but I can send this over to you when our meeting is done just where I the changes that I read off because I've highlighted what should be taken out and in red is what would so I can send that over to you and
then ask Kate to create a packet for our next meeting is that what you're asking me to do too yeah yeah so like Jeff Jeff has a a host sent something out and he's going to add some more to it you're you're you know you know Bob has a potential here with the first selectman changes and that's something for us all to review so I you know there should be some level of a how you know these aren't none of these like I think we put it in the minutes when we we all approved them right so I don't think these these would go in the minutes but they should unless you just want to keep emailing but I thought Adrian had suggested we we create some sort of packet for review yeah an attachment would be would be appropriate like it's done with a lot of other commissions and Boards okay okay and Carol I want to talk with you tomorrow about just some of the mechanics of how these documents are are put together I think I have a way to do it that might make it a little bit a little bit higher quality a little bit better thank you yeah so some of the stuff you can do within word and and PDFs okay okay thank you I think we have covered all of the things that we intended to cover this week the things that we talked about last week and deferred it's unfortunate that that Adrien isn't with us because he had a couple of important items
you know interesting and important but we'll just pray for his recovery and at this point it looks like we move on to the second public speak and we have Leanne Hutchinson Leanne do you have anything you'd like to say yes thank you I was on earlier I called in in a different phone number and so that was me I could hear you and I thought I unmuted myself but I don't think you could hear me identify myself at the time and then I've called in again on a different phone number so there's a couple of things that I may have missed the beginning of some of your discussion but I can you speak a little louder lean oh do you want me to start over or just is that better that's good okay you had a couple of items you wanted to bring
up yes mainly I just wanted to mention something because it would not be part of what this committee is going to discuss this time around but just for future reference if there is another Charter Review Committee whatever that may be and I don't know how many more meetings you you all are going to have it's I participated in the process back when we first instituted the charter in town and I've never thought that it was a good idea to have these four-year terms I'm just giving this as a topic as I said possibly for the future I don't think it's really appropriate to have four-year terms when our state representative our state senator and our Congress person currently Joe Courtney all Ser for only two years and I think it's just too lengthy and it's almost a bit presumptuous if you see what I mean to have anybody in power for that long and the first argument that usually comes up is well commission members board members like to finish what they started which makes sense but that's true of any office holder so just you know it's always been my opinion that this is probably not the best way to do things to have terms that are twice as long as elected officials you know higher elected officials local and Regional such as I just mentioned that's all thank you lean can I I I I know public speak isn't supposed to be back and forth but i' i' just like to add something to to what you just said just just you and I have a good dialogue you and I both
work together on Planning and Zoning that comes to mind as does the board of Finance as does the the Board of Education these are all boards with kind of a steep learning curve and a lot of material to learn in order to become good at an effective in that position so you know I don't know that two years is enough just my two two cents worth well I I I know there is a learning curve and and in a way that's a good thing because it's almost like a you know a a job where with many people's jobs there are things that you do every day that you learn to do right away and then there are things that come up that are just you know one-time things or things of varying importance but again I just refer to the the idea that we currently have two-year terms for state representative state senator and our Congress person who cover you know respectively a lot more constituents than we do in a town like this so maybe you know with three-year terms would be advisable or you know it's come up in a different context about staggering terms and we don't have that right now for at least for the
board of Selectmen so again that's just a thought and that's why I feel that this might not be the best way to go maybe three years would be better down line at some point certainly food for thought thank you for that input attorney Lowden yes thank you real quickly just based on what you just discussed I absolutely agree that given the very steep learning curve two years is insufficient and I think we would need to stick with four years just to stay on the election cycle so I don't know that adding a whole other election at a third year would be a good idea and the only other input I have for right now is I've been giving it a lot of thought about having a seven-person board of Selectmen based on what you know Jeff was offering for the Town Council I understand what happened there but I have personally experien the benefit of staggered terms on a seven-person board for the last nine years and I think given the importance of our Board of Selectmen that would be a really good idea to have people every two years who have experience and can educate the people who are coming on as to what a budget looks like how how a budget is formulated what our ordinances just everything that the board of Selectmen and I I don't mean to to down
downplay it or what not but everything that they have to deal with I think it would be a great idea to have a seven-person board and I agree with Carol that we could get people to run I just I've seen it in the last two committees that we asked for people to to apply for and I agree with Carol that if we tell people better how to do it we might actually get a lot more people to run for things and we're trying to do that on the DTC thanks a lot for all your work thank you Shannon any public speak from the members of the commission any independent things going once Jeff you look like you wanted to say something I'll make a motion to adjourn I second that okay all in favor I I opposed I'm not opposed thank you one and all all right see you guys