7:06 p.m. And I will call the public hearing to order. Public hearing of the continuence from June 17th, the application of Fitch Family Farm. Brian Fitch to amend annual resoning regulations to include language to regulate an tourism event. The applicant is proposing language for endo with landing and zoning permission to consider that would allow for accessory agricultural related uses and non-aggriculturally related uses that include but are not limited to weddings, banquetss and concerts. So, at this point, John, if I'm going to ask that you try to display version three on the on the screen there.
Version three. Hang on.
Would be I think it was right down at the bottom of the application file.
Oh. Oh, okay. Hold on. I'm I was I was looking through my through my archived emails. I'll get on the website in just a second.
No, it was on the So, it was on the website, you know, looking at the art no it was yeah the current applications and under the agro tourism all the way down to the bottom was version three.
Okay, hold on. I'm looking at application submitted pending, right? Or
Y pending. And
it should be top one, I think, in that file. B3. Okay, I got you. All right, bringing it up. Yeah, one more click there. Okay, I could read that anyhow, but
Okay,
so anyhow, we've gone through a couple of versions of this already. I tweaked on it a little bit since the time we met. I sent it through attorney Mark Branch for his review. media gave me a couple of suggestions on it and I will go through what I've changed since the last time we gathered. but this is still Ryan's application. So, your application, I'll tell you what, what what I did to it in probably one of the biggest biggest changes was under the agricultural accessory uses, the last last sentence there, a site plan review is required for agricultural accessory uses. So in in the last version we didn't require anything if it was related to agricultural I felt that was probably not the best approach and so you know we changed it to requiring a site plan for that as well. The difference between a site plan and a special permit a site plan doesn't require the public hearing and that sort of thing. So if it's agriculturally related like horse shows and you know farm seminars and that kind of thing site land review. The other thing we did in that paragraph is on the previous version we had as an example of an agricultural accessory use of pick your own food items. Strawberries, apples, Christmas trees, you name it. And
I thought that that was essentially farming and not agro tourism. And so farming still takes no site plan review. That's that's allowed by right. and we took that out of there just to try and eliminate the confusion and get a rule separation. coming down no changes to to paragraph B there general requirements and so the general requirements now pertain both to agricultural related and non-aggricultural related and so one of the things that I did based on Katherine Hutchinson's public comment about the number of 490 farms in the area. I did put you know the words back in there that we had on the first go around which required the farm to be a a 490 farm to take advantage of the agro tourism regulation. The other thing we did there is, you know, I I raised the acreage back up to 10 acres for non-aggricultural and specified a minimum marshal size of 3 acres for an agricultural use. Well, I guess one of the things I did to consolidate, we had two different sections where we had information on parking listed twice and I tried to gather it all together to eliminate the unnecessary words there. But but we're going to go down to the page
two so the hours of operation that we we didn't have specified the in there before you know the the application talked about events on the weekends Fridays Saturdays and Sundays I added the rest of the week in there because somebody might want to do something during the week the the last sentence under G talks about subject to modification by planning and zoning commission to require fewer hours. Planning and zoning commission by the way the words are written here doesn't have the latitude to extend the hours any long any further than what's in here. And if you know we found out after giving this some runtime we needed to do that we could change the regulation but the planning and zoning commission doesn't have the opportunity to do that down in paragraph H. I added the words you know between 12 pm and 8 pm on all other days again gives the opportunity to have an event during the week and then I think I changed the where it talks about events and activities shall remain within state
decibel limits again I don't know I wasn't able to figure out exactly what those It may include after sound to the applicant can demonstrate to the commission that sound via distance structures landscaping can be attenuated to background level that the property line and again that does not mean that you can't hear it. that just means that on your meter you don't see a decibel increase in the sound at that point.
I do have a question on the last sentence.
Okay. Yeah. What is that? But the applicant shall include sound attenuation details. So, so it's going to be the applicant's responsibility to maintain those sound levels at a background level.
I thought it was a test of some sort prior to the
Nope. Just
just maintaining and having some kind of reading. Well, you have to Yes, you have to monitor the levels of the property line to make sure that you know you've got the volume switch of the equipment set right down under lighting. If if the events are going to be held after after dark, we do expect that there'll be lighting for the safety of the participants and that should that should be in accordance with the regulations that we have on lighting. And I think going down to the health district approval, the last sentence is just sort of a typo says and shall provide a copy of the approval to the with the permit
application. what I got to do when and yeah wasn't on that. I discovered that reading through later on to cross out the word to go. So a copy of the approval with the permit application that we get from the the health district. So, one of the things that we had in homebased businesses that I liked is there's you know we can approve it on a temporary basis, try it out. there were some people in the public comment section that you know were interested in that and so I borrowed those those words essentially from the homebased business and said non-aggricultural accessory special permit approval shall be issued for a trial period of up to one year to ensure coverage of the summer season during which di activity can be reported to the commission and may be observed to make an initial evaluation. possible. You know, if we had if you entered a permit in October and it was for 3 months or something, you know, I don't think you have any events going on over that. So, that would give us the opportunity to see how it's going before
we make that permanent. And that is I think what I changed on your behalf.
Go right ahead.
And I just want to put in a note. It's not an end all, but I really think the 10 acres is a little too much. We already, you know, I I already explained that because again, that's a minimum. you know, I would thought a little bit less would be better, but it's not a you know, endall. The other thing is the street parking. what do you consider the street parking? Because I know if someone parks on the side of the grass within 15 ft or so, that's still not their property. So is that considered street parking?
So what I consider street parking is is if somebody parked on Bunker Hill Road, which they are right now at the church. Okay, that they're off the road, but they're on the grass.
and again,
I don't think it's a big factor for us. And don't forget, you know, Bunker Hill is a now it's a dead end. Yeah,
it's very nice. but it is, you know, not as much traveled road. I just wanted to get a clarification on on street or you know on the grass 10 feet or five feet off the road.
Answer that
and and I can give you a definitive answer.
Okay.
Town easement exists to 25 ft from the center line of the road in each direction.
Yeah. But but
hat's not always that's not always the case. Street parking is within the easement whether it's on pavement or not within 25 the center line has street parking
and my thought was most farms had sufficient land
they shouldn't run into a problem but I think some may you know and again
huh
you dream of that happening
well we would be glad that'd be great has happened yet but we would you know again at the same token I'm looking at other things that are going out of town and when I drive by my house every day on Tuesdays. That's not being adhered to. and that's all. I mean, I'm not I'm not one that's going to complain. I have no issues with it because to me, it's not a heavy traffic anyways. I'm not interfering with anyone, you know. So, I'm not one of those. But that's but you know when you do bring a special permit or a site plan for review you know we need to see parking
laid out because that's going to determine how many people you can have an event.
Yep. And it won't like I said it won't run. We've had over a thousand people for the the events and there's never been issues parking there. not my event.
Is that for your No, that's for the pocket.
Okay. No, that's good. That's good. So, we really have no issues parking there. So, okay. I think was was pretty legit.
Okay. There's a couple of things that I would have written different if it was my application coming, but it's yours. I don't I think I have a good understanding of what you're looking for and try to make the procedures, the regulation reflect that. so if you didn't have any other comments, Wayne, did you have any comments, questions? [Music] No.
Okay. Down planner, John. no. I think this this reflects I think a decent combination of the applicant's initial intent and some of the comments that we received from the commission and the public over the last couple of months. So, I I I think this is a decent synthesis.
Any commission members? And so I don't forget I'm starting with Leanne Hello.
Hi. Go ahead.
Hi.
yes. I have several questions pertaining all pertaining to the noise and the hours. mainly because that's the main thing that was brought up at the last couple of meetings by neighbors and people who could hear you know the goings on. one of my questions is in the and with that in mind, I think a month or two ago, Jed, I think you expressed that you'd prefer to see amplified sound anyway end at 9:00 as opposed to 10:00. And Ryan Fitch explained that, you know, sometimes for some of his events by the time people get out of work, depending on what the event is. the later he might start an event a little later and therefore want to end it a little bit later. So, that's not in here. I thought maybe 9:30 was going to be a compromise. I see it's now 10:00 and it's also 11:00 right now. I believe it's just one day a week, but it's 11:00 in here for non-amplified sound. So my question is how were those two things arrived at? And you know what happened to the idea which again I think Jed you put forward that maybe and I think I might have suggested also that 9:30 might be a compromise at least for the amplified noise. And another question is in the
previous two vers so I so I can you give me two and I'll forget the first one.
The
okay
the issue about again this is this is Ryan Bitch's application not Jed Larson's application. I probably would have put a different kind in there, but it's Ryan's application and I know what he wants and I figure we'll discuss that when we get to deliberation hopefully later this evening.
All of it.
Okay.
Every change that we would like to say
or are we going to talk about right now?
If it Well, you can ask questions now. You know, I don't want it. It's I don't want to get into deliberation that's after the public hearing is closed. Our our goal at this point is to make sure we understand the input that we got from the public and that includes the applicant at this point. And and I think I know I feel that I have a good sense of the input we got from the public and understand you know the concerns, the support and that sort of thing.
you know, she had some question.
Yep. So, and I had the same questions that she had about the time I know that it was stated that we were interested in 9:00.
Yep.
Okay. And I was to the start time on noon time. I mean on Sundays is it's says whatever I mean church gets out at 11 or 12. So I would think that it' be after that point to start time on Sunday.
6 to
Yep. We can we can just when we deliberate, we can discuss what the what those different times are. You know, I just put those in there. you know, I added some times that I thought were reasonable for other days during the week and that sort of thing. And
but I do think the crux of the matter is going to be put down the sound.
On line 87, it says non-aggricultural accessory special permit if there's nothing that addresses agricultural use.
That's true. So since the agricultural related things again were were more agricultural related in nature I didn't think that would be I chose not to put a trial period in for that you know what what I think the issue is the issue I heard from both pros and cons from everybody who talked was about sound Now, I guess if we got a lot of of, you know, there was a a rodeo and that went on at night. Maybe maybe that is agriculturally related plank with the Christmas tree farm. I don't know. maybe we want to add that in there for both that, you know, this could have been maybe I wrote that before I changed to require a site plan review for the non-aggricultural ones. I I I
don't know what sequence it went in there. So, good point. we can deliberate that when we get to that point then maybe if if that's what the commission wants to do then then that's where we'll head.
Another thing is if if I might I think we're at the point where the questions are for the proponent of the application. Aren't they?
sounds a lot like deliberation to me. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, we are. I know there's an interest there and I remember a previous similar situation where I put Annne Greet off until after we were done and then when we got to deliberation we were really in a hurry to get done or something because it was way late and Ann didn't get to say her piece. So, I'm sensitive to that, but I do think, you know, we're entering into the realm of deliberation and and we'll make sure that we have plenty of time to do that. And if we don't finish it tonight, we'll continue that for the next meeting if that's what we need to do. But, I'm interested in other questions that you might have if they're not
deliberation in nature. Well, I can bring it up now and then so that it's you know people can be thinking about it and then if you want to make it a deliberation later in the meeting related to the noise is in at least one and possibly two of the earlier versions to do with the noise and the hours. There was mention of the hours did not include setup and takeown time for any given event and that seems to have been removed from here. So again just and trying to be in keeping with the you know the main concerns that we have gotten in the last couple of meetings from neighbors is was about noise. So again, the setup and takedown part seems to have been removed and that could involve some other noise, albeit probably a lower level depending on again what time things start and end. In other words, there would still be people talking. There'd still be car doors slamming. So I wonder if that was omitted on purpose or if it just didn't get into this version.
It was omitted on purpose. maybe it shouldn't have been, but as I was going through this, you know, I was hoping that we wouldn't be out making a lot of noise, setting up and taking it down at 3:00 in the morning. I guess, you know, so I've got that as something to to think a look at. I I thought that, you know, when the the concert gets done, everybody goes home. you know certainly that could be discussed in the site plan review the special permit. This is putting some so maybe the right answer to that is to specify in the special permit or the site plan what the take setup and and takeout hours are so that they get done that I don't know what they do with the fairs over there. I
know they set up on the day, you know, the first day and when that gets torn down, I don't know, but I did intentionally remove it. Maybe not the smartest thing. That's why we'll we have commission discussion on it when we're done.
Okay. Just so I hear you clearly, you you say you it was or was not omitted on purpose.
It was omitted on purpose. Maybe not the best move, but it was intentional. And and again, my thoughts, I'm only one member of the commission. We've got you know, five commission members that that will kick it around to make sure that we add in there what we need to. If that's what the commissioner wants, we'll put it back in or make sure that it's covered you know, under the the site plan.
Okay. And I guess the only other thing I'll mention which is more of a just an observation than a it's not a question is that you know just to repeat I know we all know this this would apply all over town. This is you know Ryan Fitch originating this and etc but again I'm not completely sure just for audience members or what have you that people realize that this this would apply anywhere in town.
True. Yeah. And you know, one of the things that it could be you know, some similar events going on over at Yman's Free Farm on Andover Lake.
so, you know, I I know I wouldn't be ecstatic with that happening, but but that would would be allowed by this procedure. they got to go through the site plan review and and all that kind of stuff like like yes it does and that's why I went back up to 10 acres and I specified a minimum minimum size of three acres for agricultural related that was one of Mark Brans's comments to me said okay I've got my 3/4 acre lot I got my cabbage patch I'm going to go have the cabbage patch festival and there's nothing you can do about it and So, I tried to accommodate that a little bit. but we'll we'll talk during deliberation about how to best handle setup and take down. Good comment. Anything else, Leanne?
No.
Okay, I'm going to go to Ann Marie next.
I have no questions. Thank you.
Okay, Kevin. The only thing that I could think of pointing out at this point other than what's already been said, you have the space requirements for the venue. And I just was wondering if you wanted to consider adding, a distance from the venue to the property boundary. because you could have something like 10 acres and you could just put the venue right in the corner. and then you'd be right up against your butters. But that was my only comment. Okay. Yeah. Thanks, Kevin. And again, I probably was reviewing this application knowing the applicant and mine and that his his little stage area is well aware that if we're if we're minimum distances for parking spaces, we probably ought to put minimum distance for the
it it was just to make sure that the venue is not sitting right. I know for this application, it's totally fine and there's plenty of space. It was just to to Le's point since it does exist throughout since it's add being added to the regulations for the town if it pops up somewhere else it might be something that people would want to consider at this point.
No, that's a that's a good point, Kevin. And again, we, you know, one of the things that's sort of going on a little in reverse order than what we would normally do is, you know, the town has an application to change the rigs. We get to carefully vet it and go through it all before we bring it to public hearing. Now, we're trying to do that after the public hearing and that's just the nature of how it went. So, we'll we'll do the best we can, but there might be a little more revision than what we would normally expect because of that. This is the first time really the commission has had a chance to weigh in on on what we think is getting close to a final product. So, it it'll take a little bit. And I apprec I really appreciate Gimler. Anything else, Devin?
that's all I had for now.
Okay, Patrick. Well, you know, we're trying to encourage agurism and and our small businesses and, but I I did a I did a review of our state sound ordinances.
Yep.
And, anything from see I forgot the hours, but 10 o'clock at night is the cuto off for daytime sound level measuring according to the state D. And then so we're in in alignment with that except if you wanted to go to 11 that's like a you know a little bit longer. also they break this down into what's the land use already. Like if it if it's a class A, B or C, A is residential, B is kind of like our mixed use full industrial. I'm just you know paraphrasing. and is are those the levels we're going to be going to as far as our measurements if we go to have any enforcement or is that we will be going to measure at
the property line no increase in background.
Okay. I know how to do that. Okay. Well, it just seems that the state's regulations are looser than what we will be even proposing. That's all. I just wanted to make a record of that then.
Okay, that's fine. Yeah.
And since we have no sound ordinance per se would default to the state's rules,
maybe we should.
I just wanted to bring that into the discussion at this point before we, you know.
Yeah.
that's all I have at the moment, but
Okay.
I circle back.
Yep. Scott. well the things that I mentioned already and this would include 33 properties in handover
but the 10 acres are greater right
y
farm or not farm right
y
and yeah the things that I already mentioned about times on Sunday noon and I was just trying to think of a way that we could change this so it wasn't so expansive, you know, 33 properties. And and if you did it to the industrial zone, you put it in the industrial zone, then it would limit amount of people that could do it. And Ryan still is in that. he is most farms are not in the industrial zone, right?
And you know I guess the the other farm that I'm thinking that we needed to make sure the regulations would would support was Hurst Farm. M I'm not aware of a lot of farms other than you know Hurst and Fish, but those are the ones in in hand over.
All I'm saying is it could turn into a noisy.
It could. Yep.
Okay. Just so everybody knows publicly 33 amplified music going on. It's possible it won't happen, but they're going to be very boring.
I don't think 32 other bars while lose money. I got to do on these events.
And you have to answer the questions.
I think most everything has been covered and I would have asked probably we'll just join in with deliberations later.
Okay. Andreas send.
Okay. I'm going to open it up to the public here and Baron, I see you're on the screen here, so we'll start with you. hi, how are you
doing? Okay,
great. as far as the the decibel limits and the attenuated to the to the background level, I just want you to keep in mind that living on Route Six, there's there's a time when it's kind of peak noisy and then it gets quieter. Usually, it gets quieter at night. So it's not just it's not just one like solid, you know, the sound the sound varies. So at night it's particularly, you know, it's when you're hearing a concert, it's particularly amplified because that's the time of the day when you're more likely, you know, living on Route Six, looking forward to that quiet time. So, you know, when you're when you're measuring these decibel levels, I think you should also keep that in mind the time of the time of day that you're doing it at. also,
well, my expectation, Baron, is it would be measured, you know, during the event time. So,
right. Okay. So you're
I know that noise levels from the road will will vary during during the event as well, but there's got to be some kind of you know, it's easy to attenuate the the music level. They all have riostats on them, so you can
burn it down, but somebody's got to be out there looking. and and we're putting you know that's going to be one of the things that's discussed in the in the site plan is the method of doing that hings like weddings, banquetss as such was liability considered at all such as you know people drinking, people having a good time than going on the road. I mean, how is that controlled?
I didn't I didn't consider that. I I guess Ryan, I can let you address it if you want. The the liability from you alcohol consumption.
Well, we don't serve alcohol. and we also obviously had liability insurance on the farm for people to come and cut a tree with a saw. so we carry our liability insurance but again is that you know is that a town concern? other than having proper insurance
I did not consider that a town concern. you know, we we talked about that with other things and you know went that way even even when we were discussing liability over at the pickle ball courts and so I figured you know Ryan is a private property owner he's got to bear that responsibility on his own.
Okay. see I think that about covers it. I did you know there there has been some issue with smoke. I don't know if he what's being burned back there but sometime you know a lot of times there there's there are occasions when there's a lot of smoke. Will that be going on often? I hear
smoke. Yeah.
You have the bonfires or something maybe?
Oh yeah. We have blue burns or wood and a huge enclosed
fire pit. And then I also have small little fire pits. there's a gas one and that's just ambiance and a small little one that has covers on it for you know plus you know for the warmth if it gets later in the season but okay
we do burn Christmas trees you know say we cut a Christmas tree down we burn those but that's not that time that's during the day stuff like that Okay.
Anything else, Baron?
I think that's it. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you very much. I trying to see up there on the screen that those are all the people that I
Clark see I see Jonnell up there and I think she's here for the POC discussion. so, at that point,
John, this is Katherine Hutchinson. I don't know whether you see me or not, but I'm here.
I see your name now. Yeah, I didn't see it before. Thank you for chiming in. Go ahead, Katherine.
Yes. first let me just say that primarily what I have to say addresses the fact that this proposal, these proposed regulations cover the whole town and not just Mr. Fitch's and that's been pointed out previously in the discussion. But the fact is is that I know when he filed his application it was for 11 Bunker Hill Road. However, these proposed regulations cover the whole town as as just was pre excuse me previously mentioned. Also, I want to say at the beginning, it's important to note that I recognize that some of the concerns that I'm going to raise could possibly address at least to some extent by the references that are made in the proposed regulations to sections 23 4.21 to one of the zoning regulations and also with regard to the both amplified and non-amplified sound
by the language and subsections G and H of the proposed regulations say subject to modification by the planning and zoning commission to require a few hours. So I'm saying that excuse me with regard to beginning that I recognize some of considerations I'm going to put forth may be somewhat dealt with by those provisions. the first thing has to do with the fact that the public act 490 obviously was an act to the legislature and excuse me excuse me under the statute the definition of farmland means any tract or tracks of land including woodland wasteland used for agriculture constituting a farm unit. It is however the assessor I emphasize that that determines what is a farm under public act 490. So, it's not going to be like the normal regulations that planning and zoning considers that it limits it to a zone or whatever it appears applicable to what they're doing that the planning and zoning commission have no control over what is designated as a farm under public act 490. that is the properties in town that would be subject to the proposed ordinance and they apply when I say that to any property there's three or more acres
because of the three acre limit with regard to the accessory use and the 10 for the non-acessory use. I recognize that one of the existing 490 farms with 10 acres or more is on Hein Road directly across the street from where school road intersects with Hein Road. The old Percy Cook property is right across the street from the land owned by the town of Andover Primarily located on school road is what I'm concerned about. Keeping in mind that the firehouse and the town hall and the community center and most important school is located within a very short distance from the already established public act 490 10 acre plus farm in that area. So that anything that is done during the school hours and the school day would be impacted by this proposed ordinance. there are other properties with 10 acres and more along Keeper Road that also I think the commission should be aware of particularly with regard to as you're headed out of Andover toward Hebrin. on the east or the left hand side of the road that is basically an RRD zone but it abuts the Andover Lake district. There are some already designated four 90 farms containing the 10 acres or more on Heinurn Road, particularly in that area, as well as other pieces that are subject to potentially being for that given the 490 designation. And that's true of anywhere in town where there are properties. And I'm concerned addressing myself now to the 10acre because the non agricultural use has so much more in the way of extended basically commercial operations that
would be possibly considered to fit in that category. So, the reason I'm bringing that up is because that particular stretch backs up very closely to the end of the Lake District. I think Scott mentioned he had a copy of the zoning map in front of him. if if you were to hold that up, you could probably see how close the A excuse me, that the farm the U lake zone is and some of the streets in in the lake area are u be impacted by any of the activities that it were anticipated or contemplated or permitted by the current or the proposed regulations. They're equally concerning is that right across from the town from town hall, the school, community center, etc. There is a piece of property that contains between four and five acres that potentially has the ability to apply for a accessory use for 490 which rig and farm designation which would put them in the category of the accessory use and not the non-acessory but the term the agricultural use
which again still m has a certain amount of noise and lighting etc right across from the school and the the town office building. It's not yet but potentially but keep in mind 490 designation by the assessor is a very fluid thing. Anybody can apply at any time. So there is that consideration. There's a large tract of land on Route 6 directly across from the library in the church and close to the river homes that has also has the potential of being developed into a farm. Used to be the farm as a matter of fact and be given boarding designation. There's another large tract of land on Long Hill Road immediately adjacent to the church behind the church across the street from the library in Hop River Homes that also has that potential and that's the one that runs completely along straight out to Bunker Hill Road.
So again, the potential off another one off Bunker Hill Road as well. under the new version of the I'm again concerning myself with the amplified f sound etc. Even in the 3 acre the ex the that are not that are considered to be the minor impact is submitted victory are still going to be amplified sounds and lice and people coming and going and traffic and etc. So with the agriculture accessory uses there's also some impact on the neighbors and because they're smaller it's submitted that that impact is going to be felt much more closely by the neighbors because of the proximity to what's going on or potential proximity to what's going on. also concerned about the the hours that have already been mentioned going on till possibly 11:00 at night on Friday, Saturdays if you don't have amplified sound, but that's amplified sound. maybe it's just me, but I've heard lots of m bands playing, etc. that make pretty significant amount of noise even though there's no amplification. And you also again have that consideration that I mentioned a minute ago of the traffic and the people talking and yelling and perhaps whatever might be accompany everybody having a good time at a concert kind of a thing. the other thing that concerns me is and is the Sunday morning for amplified sound starting at 10:00. And I noticed that all other days of the week except Friday except Saturday, they start at 12:00. So the church generally runs between 10:00 and 11:00 and it suggest it you consider modifying those hours at least to start at noon time. so it would run like all the other days except Friday and Saturday to run from
noon time to 8:00 at night again. I suggest that we have to look at the town as a whole and the impact upon what planning and zoning does with this this application or these regs as they are submitted would have and potentially have on the town of Andover. I respectfully submit would probably be one of the most significant things that the commission did with regard to all over impact upon the town as a whole. If anybody has any questions they'd like to ask me about what I said, I'd be happy to address them. And again, my disclaimer is I recognize that some of these can possibly be addressed by the incorporation, which I think was a good idea of sections 234.21 21 of the zoning regulations and also that language contained in G&H with regard to subject to modification by the planning and zoning commission to require a few hours. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Catherine. Is there anybody else who's attending virtually that has not had a chance to comment at this point? Okay, Bob, your turn. Okay, leave them out there so the thing can hear me better. I'm going to steal a little of of Ryan's thunder here. since the last meeting, at the last live event that we had, Ryan and I drove around the neighborhood because we wanted to get an idea since so much has been discussed about the sound in various places and that's been really the the the primary push behind all of this. we drove up and down Bear Swamp Road. We also went along route six and along Longill. He has a SPL meter. I have the app in my phone. and we took some some measurements. The results were very interesting, I have to say. Along Bear Swamp Road, for the most part, you could not hear the the amplified music because the crickets and cicas and tree frogs and everything else were way too loud. they would add and flow and occasionally you would hear some some musical notes drifting through. The one thing that totally blocked out any
sound, at least up up in that part of of town, were overhead airplanes. And I'm not talking about the Air National Guard, the C130s that come through at treetop. I'm talking about commercial airlines 15,000 ft up. They make a surprisingly large amount of granted, it's white noise. It's not structured like music. And similarly, you know, along Route 6, it can be very quiet and it can be very loud. you're talking about 80 85 dB just with cars going best. and that's you know that's almost power tool loud at at that point. So it was it was a real eye opener.
just how much it can vary. And I have to say it makes me kind of like even more the the language that you have the background, you know, not to exceed the background level at the property line because the background level varies with place and time and circumstances. And it may work to the detriment of the fellow who lives on Route 6 because the background level there is a lot higher than the background level along along Bear Swan. And like Patrick noted the general rule from the TE is 5dB above the background level in various places. That's what's permitted. And that of course excludes things like construction, you know, where you know explicitly you can you can be allowed. If you couldn't then nothing could ever be built. So, I I just wanted to throw that in that, you know, there is there's the objective side of this that the neighbors are coming forward and saying it spooks my horses or or whatever. I don't want to listen to the music. The subjective, excuse me, but there are the these objective measurements. This is really fundamentally a technical issue. And as such, it's no different than a
boundary line dispute or a setback or any of the other things where you can get a subject matter expert and you can get measurement equipment and you can resolve things and there's an existing an existing base of knowledge so to speak and and just a little digression here and Jed you you actually brought it up. I didn't want to say it, but you brought it up, so I'm going to follow up on it, which is that this process has kind of gone backwards in a lot of ways. Because it started with complaints, I would have thought that either the commission or the complaintants would have been that the the burden of proof, the evidence would have rested on them. you know, if you're complaining about sound, then come forward with a video or with measurements or something to substantiate what you're saying because this is a technical issue as well as a subjective issue. And I, you know, we call this a public hearing, but you don't have the burden that a proper civil proceeding has, you know, where there's an evidentiary process or criminal proceeding has where you actually have to have evidentiary hearings. But it would have been nice and I think if this kind of thing comes up before the commission in in the future it behooves you to try to to follow that kind of a process. I think that that the person who comes forward it really you know it's kind of on them to to persecute this prosecute this to push it forward and not not the you know
the person who is affected by it. So I just I wanted to throw that in there. Let me let me address that for just a minute because back
you know back in the day when you were on the commission and John Benny was here as zoning enforcement officer.
I remember the agony that we went through on lighting regulations
and you know we got to make your your jelly 60 W light bulb illegal, right? but but the reason we took that on at least at the time that's what I use as a model was people were coming to complain to John that about the lights shining in her property and so John went out and we worked as a zoning commission to try and and create a regulation that would allow him to go out and enforce something later on. I definitely did not want to touch this regulation with a 10-ft pole. That's why, you know, it was my my goal in life was to get Brian and the neighbors to resolve the difference, make a compromise so that we didn't have to write this because I know nobody's going to be happy with the way it comes out. You know, everybody's going to not like something that's in there and I didn't want to get in there at all. But we couldn't do that. We couldn't figure out a compromise. And so I'm put in the position of having to come up with the compromised form. I don't like doing
that. That's not the way it's supposed to be done, but I'll take that on and run with it. But I didn't want to I did not want to regulate this activity at all. Well, I'm glad you brought up the the dark sky lighting thing as well as say the the late runoff regulations. That's another thing that I think falls within the same the same umbrella of highly technical subjects. But on both of those we did have the luxury of this has been done in a lot of places. You know there's a real huge body of knowledge on it. And so you know it's it it's interesting. It
it's reassuring that you're thinking of the same things that that that I am when we're looking at this.
well this is new. You know, I I read a lot of articles in the the paper about the other towns agonizing over trying to come up with acceptable that both support the guy who wants to do it and protects the neighbors who live next to it.
Yeah. Well, so while we're talking about that, and I'm going to go back to something that I said the the last time, which was we have two or three neighbors who've complained about this. We've had 20 or more people who have entered public testimony here for it. And so I have to I really have to ask how much is this an actual issue and the measurements that I made would argue that the complaints are not credible. Okay. Since you put that there, I'll get into the record. When you made that comment about the vast majority of the people that have attended spoke in favor of the concerts, the vast majority of that vast majority did not live next to the farm. Bradley, there were there were way more people expressing concerns over the noise level than I thought there would be hit at the meeting. And so, you know, I have to listen to that as well.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I wanted to just mention Kevin's observation about the distance to the property line and and considering that I think that the language talking about shall not exceed the background level that the property line kind of makes the notion of where the performance is happening relative to the property line superfluous. You know what matters isn't distance, it's sound. It might we'll we'll deliberate that when we get there.
Yeah. Okay. I brought this up before. I'm going to bring it up again. This past Friday, we had a lovely event here. Well, 100 ft away at the town gazebo with amplified sound. I walked across the street and made sound pressure measurements with my phone. 75 78 80 dB loud. Okay. If this is passed, it needs to address amplified sound everywhere. Otherwise, it's selective prosecution. Persecution. I I I don't know the right word. It's selective enforcement. And you're going to run into problems. Somebody is going to say, "This isn't right. why are we applying this to
farms and not explicitly elsewhere? Why are we not applying it to the church that decides to have an outdoor service on, you know, Easter Sunday morning and has a guitar with a little box amplifier? I mean, this this could blow up. I understand you're not wanting to not wanting to touch this and and illustrating other reasons why.
Okay. For and for the record, how often does the town have a concert out there? three times each summer they've done it. I think it's only two this year because it rained out once. Okay. He got rained out a few times also. So this you know I I look at what the town's doing is a similar thing to you know somebody who decides that their kids get married and they're having a party in the backyard. That's a very infrequent thing and and you tolerate that a little more. And again, we we've got to be you've got to be we can't regulate everything. I agree. You can't regulate everything. last time I spoke, I called myself a libertarian in the sense of Thomas Jefferson and liking a limited government. I'm going to go one step further here and I'm going to call myself, you're going to love this pitch, a conservative in that we shouldn't pass laws or regulations unless they are compelling. We shouldn't change the status quo unless there are good reason, not not just good reasons, but compelling reasons. And so I would have to say that on a large part of these proposed regulations, I oppose them. And I'll just go down on record is saying that that's all I've
got. I oppose them, too.
Okay. I can do I wish we could have compromised and and satisfied the people who were making the complaints, but we didn't do that.
It is within your prerogative to dork these down. Any other time?
Yeah, you probably don't hear about that. Thanks. Go ahead. I'll end it. and I know that, you know, there was concerns on, you know, different farms and different areas and it it seems like we're we're projecting way too much of what could happen as to, you know, what is happening. there's been farms in this town forever. and you know it it shouldn't have just took me one person to come and try and do things. I'm sure there's not going to be much else going on. But in that in saying that I think of your plan of having a site plan and a PMZ having to approve it actually just eliminated the concerns of what if in the future because you do have control over that. you know so I think that you know I know we spent a lot of time on that but I think in this writing they need to have a site plan and then there's also
special permits and if PNC can deny any of that u the the concept of church that's a whole that's much correct to be nice I go to church and there's 15 people at church in this town all right and we end at 11:00 so to use that as an example of why we shouldn't be having music because church I believe there's only one church in this town that runs on Sunday.
There's three
that run on Sunday.
I don't that happened on the same
and there's not I mean I don't think we should stop that for 15 people. the other thing would be what Bob talked about too is you know we want to be I know we didn't want to get here. and I think he is right that we've done the lab work of testing it and showing I have it all on video. I have it all on email that the music level is a lot at at my at the complaint stone house is a lot less than every single car that drives by. And I have that we went to Bears and we measured and again we go into people's properties and go on their deck to see if but again there was no music at a level that would even be remotely worrisome. So I understand there are issues and there are people that are going to complain u but we have to take that as you know wholeheartedly is there proof is there a history of complaining on many other things that are going on around the area. I think that plays a role too. The other thing I would ask is I know we had complaints and we had some positive. Is that public record? Is that something that can be shared? It should be shared. where the concerns are who formed the concerns, who supported it. is that public record or is that
is public record?
Is that something we can be provided so that we can
It's on the video recording.
What about emails and phone calls and the town halls and stuff like that?
I don't have any of that. If there was if there were comments provided for the record with respect to this application, they're in the folder on the website.
Okay. Perfect. They're posted. Yes.
Perfect. Perfect. That's that's good. And again, you know, I I was contemplating on, you know, changing times and we can certainly lower the decimal at times. like this this weekend we have one. It's a oneman acoustic and it will be as low key as as possible and it's a town that is actually coming to sing. So this does bring people together. I'm still up in the air if this is something I'm going to continue to do because it's really been one a nightmare and two it's not the most profitable venture that I that I I've chosen. I enjoy it. you know, but again, I don't know, you know, if this town is the right place to
hold these. and again, like you mentioned, I'm going to bring back you know, the other day we were sitting at our house and I have a a fairly nice house with a nice outside venue with a pool and a p and a and a deck and a patio and my neighbor was having a a party eighth of a mile away down my driveway. I didn't would never one minute think of calling and complaining about hearing his music or the fireworks because that's about being in a town and having neighbors.
You know, I grew up in East Harford. I moved here for a reason to get away from the hostel and bustle. But at the same time, I actually when we first moved here, we were at our pool on our deck with my little kids and I had three airplanes go right over my trees and hit my trees. These trees were moving like crazy. Again, this happens probably once a week. I'm not going to call and complain. I have a dump right down the street that people drive by every Saturday and every Wednesday constantly trash falling out. Not going to complain. You know, that's where I think we need to look at is what we're hearing for complaints. Are they legitimate? Not every complaint's legitimate. Not every, like you said, not every support is lives near us, but I think we need to weigh those in. and I don't think we
should restrict our community from being building a community and our businesses progressing now. I don't know again we that property that I own is industrial. I know we're trying to go this farm route. I don't know what restrictions you have on the industrial part. basically that whole lot is industrial zone. So I think we need to take that into consideration too. These houses, these people that bought properties on Route Six, right with industrial zone property right behind them. What were they expecting?
They were expecting to live next to why Christmas tree farms,
but it's induction.
Hey, you live on Route 6. 20T away from Route 6.
That's it. That's all I got. Who has that thought?
The u any last minute comments? I know I have heard all I need to hear from the public many many times over. I got it. What we do with it? We'll decide that when we get to deliberations. Is there anybody on the commission who is concerned about closing the public hearing at this point? Okay. Hearing none. It's 8:16. Public hearing is closed.
Thanks. Okay. State 16, I call the regular meeting in order for the roll call and seating of alternates. All regular members are here. All alternate members are here. Thank you very much for everybody attending. I think this was an important important meeting for you to all participate in. Even though once we start deliberating on the agro tourism only those people seated on the commission will get to discuss at that point additions or changes to the agenda. Does anybody have any additions or changes? And I I had two that I was going to propose. One was going to be new draft regulation changes, a bunch of stuff that we talked about last time. There was a couple that we didn't get
to. I'm not going to put that on the agenda tonight because of time, but I would like to add to the agenda an executive session for discussion of the gravel bid and that would be right after approval of the minutes. so that would be the last thing that that we do. I think there's some activity taking place over there at the gravel pin now and I think we need to to be able to talk about that. So I will make a motion to add new item 10 executive session for discussion of the gravel pit second.
Thank you Patrick. Any discussion hearing? None. I'll call for a vote. Ann,
Scott,
hi.
Leanne,
I
Dr. Leanne,
then I Well, the motion passes 500. Under old business, first up is the special permit application, Michael Edward. so the way it works, Mike, is the you know, the public hearing that we had is done. You get to participate. No more talk, we just talked about you. You were certainly, you know, appeared to, hear all that goes on. And, and what always happens is there's about five things that I wish we would have talked about if closed. We have to we have to vote on what's on the record there. Right. I am hoping that all the members of the commission saw the the draft motion that Wayne sent out with the agenda. I will read the motion. If if we get a second to it, then we can discuss it in any more detail and act act accordingly. At that point, I make a motion to approve the home occupation application of Michael Heckler with the following conditions. That the property, garage, and workshop shall not be used for the storage, maintenance, or repair of any vehicle or equipment not owned by Michael Heckler, his immediate family, or Heckler Land Services and Excavation.
that the vehicles and equipment associated with Michael Heckler, Heckler Land Services, and Excavation in this home occupation shall be limited to the following: one six-heel dump truck, one pickup truck, one Tesla automobile, one mini excavator, one wood chipper, and two 16 ft trailers. Vehicles and equipment shall only be replaced with an equivalent. Michael Heckler and Heckler Land Services and Excavation shall not store any fuel on site except for fuel in the vehicle and equipment internal fuel tanks. No hazardous materials as defined in Connecticut General Statute section 22A-15 shall be stored on site that prior to commencing site work and construction of plot plan drawn to 8 survey standards by a license depicting existing conditions and site improvements be filed with the Andover town clerk and building department with these conditions of approvals printed on the site Do I have a second?
Thank you, Ann. We're seconding the motion. Any discussion? And I guess for the information of you, if you know, if you did need to change the you know the vehicles and that that's a change to what we're approving in the special permit, you need to come back. Yeah. then and we would deal with that depending upon the the significance of the change. So not that you can't, it's just that you can't without coming talking and planning and zoning again.
question.
Yep. U is the exception that if he's replacing one with like that that's the the third paragraph of this draft motion does he he doesn't need to come get another? It means replacement with a license vehicle. It doesn't have to. Okay. Just want to clarify right there.
Okay. Thank you.
Yes, we
in the minutes from last month, it states that the I have a bunch of windows open. The applicant had asked for a waiver of the A2 survey. I think I'm trying to bring it up now. That was for the purposes of approving this special permit.
I mean for for the way I understood it that was that was to wave the A2 survey for these deliberations. However, it does not wave the A2 survey for the ultimate site plan which I have discussed with Mr. Heckler. And Leanne, I think one of the concerns that the applicant had, he's been working on trying to get permission to do this for a long time. Didn't want to put a bunch of money into site plans and that though he knew that we were going to buy into it. The regulations did allow us to wave that and we did. but that doesn't mean that he can't
build what he wants to build without having the sighting land and putting it on file with the town. So that just allows us to proceed tonight without having that in ant.
Okay. I'm not sure I followed that but okay.
Yeah. So so there's there's some significant costs associated with coming up with the A2 survey and the the detail plans for the the garage that he wants to build. Yep.
He he'd already been turned down twice and and did he was hoping to avoid that cost until he gets the green light that says yes, you can do it and then he'll put invest the rest of the money into the engineering work that needs to be done to support that.
Okay. They do better that time.
Okay. So, it sounds like you and and Wayne are I guess it answers my question. You and Wayne are satisfied about that.
Yes, we are.
I was just I was just looking at the way it was worded in last month's minutes and there was some mention in the minutes of last month about incorporating the wetlands. It says, "Wetlands agent has reviewed site plan and suggested catchbas drywall on property as well as silt fence during construction." So, I wonder if that might be covered under Wayne's draft motion.
which I'm now trying to find again because there's so much stuff open. it it just talks there's some language in there and I'm not seeing it right now, but I think it might be covered in in Wayne's motion anyway, so it's probably not a big deal. Here's what I remember about that, Le and that the wetlands agent did review the draft plan, if you will, that talked about the nutrient allocation dry wells that and I think you had a detention pond as well in there, but but he took a look at it again and the sanitation god took a look at it again. So, we we had those those two people come back and they both gave their their green light to the project.
Okay. Thanks.
Any other commission members have any other questions or comments?
I can't remember if we asked you for an input at this point or not. I think
No, I'm good. And me and Joe have gone over this quite extensively with Mr. Heckler.
Okay.
Any other questions?
Hearing none, I'll call for a vote. Dan,
Scott,
Leanne,
I.
Peri.
And I vote I as well. Motion passes by Z. You're not done. Most people breathe a sigh of relief and say, "Okay, you know, I'll go do what I want." Nope. There's some follow on stuff. Give it way. Make sure that we're getting all the right stuff filed down in that.
Good luck. It's a big hurdle at least.
Yeah, that's a big hurdle.
Now you get to hire the engineer.
Now I got to start paying one.
Okay. next up is the application of Pitch Family Farm to amend the Andover zoning regulations. so I didn't think there were any questions that we wanted to deliberate on the first page based on, you know, both Scott and his Hutchinson's talk. That's why we put the 490 back pack back back in there and the 10 acres and the three acres is just to try and minimize the number of things.
John, put that back up on the screen.
yes, that would be good. John, if you could sure back screen there, that'd be great.
Okay. This is again going back to going back to version three.
Yeah.
Okay. So, why don't you scroll down to are there any any any discussion by any commission member on anything prior to where we get into the hours? Badger. Well, we are not going to be putting any numbers on this except for the five dB above background noise. Is that the constant background noise? Is that the, you know, the the highest recorded level on route six? I mean, these are some considerations I didn't even think about before.
so and also with the the states got well, the state's DEC levels, I had pulled them up. I didn't mention the numbers during the public hearing because we never talked about numbers, but if this goes into being our our new in a in a rule, you know, a regulation, excuse me. then I think it's something that we should be a little aware of. where I have a tab up here because like there's there's different like the 70 dB is class C emitters. So that's
industrial and that's all the way till 10 at night.
and that's a constant 70 dB received from class C to a class D property. So from commercial to commercial and then there's different ranges from going from from that to class B to class A. Class A is the most restrictive residential area. And since we've now recognized that we don't have a traditional this is just residential now and this is just industrial or just farm. I think it's something we should just talk about for a second so it doesn't doesn't turn into a quagmire of oh well what's this decibel and then turns into a a big thing. I just want to address it quickly because I know this the the the original intent of the regulation was to expand as use as usage or an you know accessory use but I don't think we really addressed the number right.
Yep. and what is the background limit that we're going to say is the number in our town because that sets precedent for the rest of the town. I'm just putting up there and so I'm really hesitant at this point because if we have no sound ordinance per se, we have to default to the state's recommendations yet. I mean, if we called for noise complaint
as far as somebody's
words we have in here.
Yeah.
Have been agreed to by our attorney.
Okay. All right. I just wanted to bring it up one last time. And
Yep.
And so, but but you're in you're into the bottom of the paragraph that talks about hours. I look
Oh, the hours. I'm not I don't I'm not concerned about the hours too much, but
paragraph eight. Yeah.
Okay. And state is at 10 o'clock. We're at 10 o'clock except for one day. I think that that's
No, before we get to the hour, anything.
Let me go. Let me
Anything look on page one.
Got any comments on May one?
John, can you scroll back up to page one?
Well, I'm sorry. What are you looking for? just
to get away from where we were to to
I don't think so when we went through and I listened to the comments from the commission and everybody else
I heard no recommendations for deliberation on the first page. So we okay turn the page over and the first two paragraphs on the second page didn't hear anything about that either. So now we get down to the hard it's going to be now we're going to take paragraph G. The hours of operation for uses and events that do not include amplified sound
shall not begin before 900 a.m. or finish after 10 p.m. Sunday through Thursday. Friday and Saturdays are 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. I was I was okay with both of those numbers because I don't think they're noisy events. I agree. So 11:00, you know, sounds a little late, but if somebody were to have a wedding venue or something and they were out there doing that, you know, and most places that have wedding venues, they have it in a big tent and that keeps the sound contained a little bit, too. but I was I'm okay with it going and if there's a special circumstance like it's, you know, next to the church or next to the school or whatever, you know, we get to we get to make that call.
Okay, sounds good.
Okay, so we're good with paragraph F or G, depending upon which one you're looking at there. Looks like
G.
Can't tell which one's crossed out. This one's
it's G. It's new G.
Okay.
So, now we get down to the hard and and to just discuss in generalities. I thought the point about the concert that we had here at the gazebo exceeding background levels neighbor property line. Fair point.
the other thing I would say, you know, I would I would almost be willing to get away with the sound measurements if we cut it off at at a reasonable time where people aren't trying to go to bed. I think the the beef is people are trying to sleep
and there's music out there that doesn't put them to sleep.
Right. Gotcha. Yeah. You know, everybody's got their own good noise to put you to sleep, but but I still think the town standard of 9:00 great standard on the weekends. I think 8:00 during the week, you know, I heard some discussion about some things that went later. I looked online and I it looked like you know out at the Carter Hill farm the bands are inside after dark. It's different different set of circumstances. So I'm very comfortable with with a 9:00 for Taylor. You know that can't be the end of the world to just end. you know, he's talking about events that he does on a Saturday night and I think 8 o'clock during the week is reasonable, too. I've gone to concerts over in Marbor that you
know, they have them on Thursday nights and it's from 6 to 8. I think that works great. So, I just think if I were living over there, 10:00's too late, 9:00 I can live with. Personally, my thought is that people don't move to Andover so that they can hear rock bands outside. That's not what we move here for. We move here number.
So,
I'm I'm willing to based on the fact that the town and the lake have concerts and I would expect the lake to limit to 9:00. The the one concert they had this year, at least that that I heard, was an afternoon thing. They were done by six. It was on Saturday. Okay.
So, well, I'm good with that, too.
Okay.
All right. Thank you.
Well, so you're good with good with that time. You know, we we're all in the week. Nine weekends.
Nine week ends and and eight during the week. How about these? So before you move on, what you're proposing to do is change the hours in line 57 from 10 p.m.
to 9:00 p.m. Is that what they're
Line 57 and Yeah. line 57 Fridays between 12 and 10. Saturday 10 to 10 and Sun and Okay. Just that
you want to change the tempm to 900 pm.
Just
so in line 57 the 10 goes to 9. Saturday between 10:00 a.m. and 900 p.m. or Sunday between 10:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. and between 12:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. on all other days. thing I probably look at I don't know what they're going on with what they have going on but I was a little concerned about you know not allowing it to start till noon but
I would say to that when they were talking about churches I mean there is this religious freedom
well our church
amendment to our constitution that
don't okay yeah
I mean are you going to hear it inside the church.
This is my way of look looking at this thing. We're not protecting the 25 people that he brought here. We're protecting this three don't like it and the 15 people that are in church.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the couple people that do
because if I was doing the same thing, I would have bought from 50. But it's not going to do any good because we're not protecting those people are all for it already. So we're not protecting them. We're doing the complaint. So Jed
to clarify I'm sorry. Are you changing both 10 o'clock hours to nine?
Yeah. Yes.
Both. Yeah. Yep. There you got you got the second one. Yeah. 9. That's at least for for discussion.
Right. Okay. I just want to make sure that I'm I'm reflecting what you're talking about.
Sunday between 10. So I would be happy to put
we got too many different you know I would have been happy with weekends are this week is this
but if we made we've got Friday a little bit different because well Saturday is a little bit different because events can start early on Saturday.
I got you. So, I'm I'm ready to have Friday, Saturday, and all other days
between noon and and 8:00 p.m.
Yeah.
I believe the same thing that you're saying. I don't think it's the sound. It's the lateness.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. That's why people don't give a hoot about the Andover Sportsman Club. You know, nobody's out there shooting at 10:00 at night.
That that bothers us.
Okay.
Our neighborhood, it's very annoying. We're not even close to it. We're over a mile away. Still hear that. It's like, oh, they're that,
you know. So, here's I used to live in Virginia Beach and we had naval aviation at its finest flying around down there. And the neighbors were all upset because the Navy was flying these jets. And the Navy told them, "H, we were flying those jets long before you moved here. You moved here knowing those jets are flying. That's your problem. We need to fly." Then then that was the end of the discussion. I you know the landing and zoning doesn't decide about the airplanes flying overhead. Doesn't decide about the fireworks which are already illegal. we're we're talking about events on a farm. We're not even talking about somebody who's opening a wedding venue, which you know the and when we first started talking about this, I was not a fan of all these non-aggricultural related things. Brian was supposed to be doing the farmers market all year. I don't think that, you know, there there's no farm related activity going on. All he wants to do is have concerts. And I understand his point of view, but But when we were discussing lights over at the soccer field, they were trying to protect that one person who lived out there that the soccer club wanted to shine lights across the field right into their house, you know. So that's kind of where I am here. And and should we event shall remain within state decibel limits?
Yeah, just get rid of that last thing about me out there with my little meter because I didn't, you know, I went out there with my meter, too. And
what' you see?
What did I see? Well, I saw at at the Stonehouse some pretty high levels when the trucks would drove by there. You know, ADB, you know, pretty much what Bob was saying. but the later at night, those became fewer and fewer and the vehicles on the road is a white noise kind of thing where music is is different. You know, it's harder to ignore music. So, how was the decel level?
What's in it?
The decel level. What was it?
80. When the when the cars and trucks went by, you know, it was pretty high.
And what was it from their concert?
they did not exceed 80,
you know. So, they were within in that limit there.
The thing that I think is a fair point
is we need we should be
I'd like to be consistent with this in what we expect to do.
That's fair. So, if we were to just branch that,
I I would point out that the and Scott, correct me if I'm wrong, in order the town issues a permit to use the town property to do events and stuff, right?
So, that's regulated by ordinance.
not much.
That's not the noise.
No. Well, they still issue a permit.
Okay. But we're we're asking this guy to get a permit, too. you know special permit which is even a bigger deal. So
kay and then on on this here we where line 60 where events and activities shall remain within state decibel limits. and then line 62 sound be attenuated to the background level to Patrick's point that kind of conflicts with the state regulation because the the state regulation prescribes a specific decibel limit whereas yeah whereas attenuated to background level is
an on the-fly or or at that time type type thing. It's a measured thing at that time and it could be above
when the trucks go by. so again, you know, being out there with my meter, you what I saw was when it was very quiet, there was some increase in sound due to the music at times. Not a lot, but a little bit, but it was certainly when when the traffic was headed down the road, there was no no increase in background at that point. Do you do you remember just you know this isn't like a you know really definitive but was it music less than 55 when there was no trucks driving by
and and you know
so here's the two standards I know
heavy traffic on route six
80 dB gotcha
I can get my meter out when I walk at 5 in the morning around the lake and there's nobody but those crickets is 40.
Right.
So that's that's the range in there.
Okay.
And in a stage 80
no stage 70.
Yeah.
So you know but
that's not zoning. This is, you know, and if we wanted, if the county wanted to create noise orders, you know, the the barking dogs probably nuts, you know, I don't like your Everybody's got a barking dog anymore,
right?
We all agree that we don't really not worried about the sound. We're worried about going to sleep.
Yeah, we're worried about going to sleep. So, are we happy with crossing that last sentence out or should we expect the town to do something? Or do we say that the town is more in line to a neighbor having a noisy party once the blue moon and we're we're going to live with that. I I'll just say this. My read of the last line as a zoning agent means that the applicant has to include some information as to how they plan on attenuating the noise levels.
Yeah.
And it doesn't necessarily mean they have to do a noise study and they don't have to remove all the sound,
right? So,
I mean, that's how I read it. Just says shall include sound attenuation details as
well. Yeah. I I was looking at the wrong last sentence there. So
they could claim that the trees
events and activities shall remain within state decel limits and may include amplified sound if the applicant demonstrate the commission of the sound via distance structures landscape. He's
to me to me that's part of the attenuation details. I don't want to muddy the water here, but that's how I kind of read that last line.
No, I I got you. I I'm now with you there. So, I tried to marry what I could measure on my meter and what I thought it was reasonable that we kept the state decel limit thing in there. I don't know if if the commission during its special permit process can ask for a sound study to be included.
Okay. Well, let me
I I know that happens more with bars and things like that that are
Yeah, I don't think I'm not in favor of that one.
Okay. So Jet Jet, if I might.
Yeah, go ahead, Jen.
So I I maybe this would I I I can square the circle here if you could leave it. So events in activity shall remain within state decibel limits and may include amplified sound if the applicant can demonstrate to the commission that sound via distance, structures, and landscaping can, you know, can be attenuated to respect those limits.
Okay. Yep. That's that's it. And what what I'd like to do is hold the rest of the discussion on this in obeyance. I'd like to be able to think about that between now and the next meeting to you know that that's really the crux to the whole thing. And the you know I would like to have consistency between between the down at the gazebo and what we expect of the agriculture. Not that not that it absolutely needs to be, but it ought to be. You know, seems it's good for one, good for the other. And except that this is specific to PA490 property and the gazebo is not
right. Yeah. But okay, so somebody should ask me, if somebody were to ask me, why can the town do this, but this guy can't
it would be nice to avoid having that question asked.
And again, I think, you know, we're not going to have concerts every day. part of the part of the special permit is going to be how often it happens, but I think the issue is more when it's done, not how loud it is when you're not trying to go to sleep. But again, that's that's my thought. I'm trying to or the town could do this by ordinance. Yeah, I don't know. But I don't want to spend any more time on that one. I want to sleep on that before we get there. But, you know, so we're we're coming through.
What about events that are non amplified sounds that says 11 minutes long?
Yeah. What about it? Do you want to leave? Yeah, that's that sounds
I mean, if you have a wedding party, sometimes it'll be louder than
Well, we're not This is why I didn't want to have to try and regulate this. You know, it there's too many different things that are all going on. And this is why I put for one year. Now, we can we can specify that this regulation will be reviewed in a year and but any regulation could be reviewed and changed anytime we want. But but it forces us to go back and take a look at are we happy with what we got? As long as there's no pending application,
I think it would be I think it would be good to consider moving the non-amplified item from 11:00 p.m. to 10 p.m. for a couple of reasons.
Okay. You said there was a couple of reasons, Leanne.
yes. One is that in the earlier versions of this an even earlier time and I don't remember at the time if we made a distinction between amplified and non-amplified but 10:00 seemed to be acceptable especially as opposed to something even earlier than 10:00 for a you know a mandatory closing time. 10 o'clock seemed to be okay with the applicant and 11 o'clock seems to be in my opinion really pushing it which brings up the other point I was going to make which I raised earlier about the item has been taken out so far out of this version about not allowing for activity setting up and and taking down which is what you'd be doing at between 9 and 11:00 at night. So there'd still be some volume associated with that. As I said earlier, just people talking back and forth and car doors slamming, etc. So the way it stands right now, that would be added on to the 11:00 time.
Could be. Yeah, could be. so my my thought was, Leanne, that we would put that down under the paragraph on site plan and put, you know, as a required item, the plan for set up and taken down. So, we get to get to hear when that's going to be.
Okay. And that brings up another question which I think somebody brought up in the last month or two. So, I don't think it was my question, but somebody asked I think I don't know who, but anyway, whether or not the let's see, any applicant, whether it's Mr. Fitch or not, would have to come in for a review every time they held an event, or would there be a site plan review that would apply to a calendar that somebody submitted? it. So I the way I envision it is that the applicant gives us a list of things they want to do. Just like the applicant for the home business, we had a list of equipment he has and as long as he does see what's on that list, he's good to go. if he wants to start exceeding the number of events or you know he's making arrangements for more people or whatever, he has to come back in and have a modification with the site plan. So, this is not
something that somebody'd have to do for every every event unless he were interrupting town traffic, you know, so that we needed to look about getting the state trooper out there to direct traffic someplace or something like that. That's the purpose of that town permit is to make sure that the town is properly taken care of. Okay. So, that brings me back to suggesting that the 10 the 11:00 for the non-amplified events be moved back to 10:00, especially with this consideration.
And so, how about during the week, Leanne? would you want that at 9:00 or you good at 10:00 on that through the week, too?
let me see. I'm reading it. If we do 10:00 the whole bit, then you know all the hours are the same. There's no difference. It could just be you know won't begin before 9 and will be or finish after 10.
So you're asking now what I think about during the week.
Yeah.
How long should we go during a week? Oh. okay.
The answer is 10 o'clock. You know, I'm I'm okay with that, too. I'm just asking, because you had some good reasons for,
John, was in your pancreas order.
Why did you rehearsal that TV where somebody runs over and pulls the plug?
Sorry about that. I just got an alert and it was curious. Okay, thanks. Right.
But I agree with you know I'm certainly okay with reducing that 11:00 to 10:00.
We can in in wood
we can always
I think
we can always we can always change it to be more liberal later. Once we start, we can't, you know, once we approve somebody's permit under these regulations, it's good to go. And so, we can't crank down on it. So, I would like to start out a little bit more conservative and relax after it's going well as opposed to try to crank it back because once we approve permit, can't crank it back. We've approved it. still
I I suppose 10:00 during the week is okay as long as we get rid of the 11:00 which again seems quite late.
I still don't understand where the part about the setup and takeown is going to be accounted for.
Okay.
so
is that part of the site I mean if it's part of the site plan review? So far we're not saying that
right? We we did not say that yet. We haven't got down that far, but that's where we'll go.
So, you can strike Sunday through Sunday through Thursday, Friday, and Saturday hours of operation 9 to 11. You can strike. You want to strike that whole line.
Well, I thought we were just changing 11:00 to 10:00. Well, so if you read the first sentence there, the hours of operation for uses or events that did not include amplified sound shall not begin before 9:00 a.m. or finish after 10 p.m. Period.
We're not talking about
I see. Okay. So, we can still visit the the point I was making a couple of times about the takeown time and possible
noise. And I have one more. I have one more question about the next paragraph. I'm just I'm just looking at the hours. This is G and H.
why is it the the start time now as opposed to the end time? Why is the start time for Saturday and Sunday at 10:00 a.m.? This is under amplified sound may be allowed on Fridays between 12:00 p.m. and now we're saying 900 p.m. Saturday between 10:00 a.m. or Sunday between 10:00 a.m. etc. So why do we know why the proposal is for two hours earlier than it is during the week?
My thought was that people are out willing to do events early on Saturday morning. And so he came
Saturday. How about Sunday?
Saturday.
Sunday. You know,
I'm I see both sides on that. I
Okay. Yeah. Well, I I yeah, I just I just wanted to bring that up because hopefully with the I'll call them safeguards, if you agree that that's a good term, that are built in about the decibel level and the you know, the commission has the ability to, you know, there's the one-year trial period. the commission has the ability, which I guess we're still discussing, to modify some of this. So, I guess it's okay. I was just looking to see if there was a particular reason for the Saturday and Sunday being two hours earlier, but I it looks like we still have some leeway.
And and I guess, you know, thinking about it here for a couple of minutes, I'm okay with the Sunday being 10:00 a.m. If we're in the vicinity of a church or something like that and we want to reduce those hours, we have the we have the authority to do that under that special need. we have to make consideration is it going to interfere with the religious services going on and if it does then we might want to consider that and make it start after I don't know it gives us a chance but it doesn't it doesn't prevent us if you're out in the middle of nowhere to start at 10:00 matter of fact maybe it should be 9:00 on Sunday too there's an awful lot of people that aren't spending their Sunday mornings in church or doing other things. But again, we can change that later. I I'm okay starting it. But but we have the authority with a special permit to reduce that and that would be a that would be a valid consideration for why you might want to do that. Same as you know, an event that we're taking place right next to the school. School's in
session. We probably don't want to, you know, let a bunch of noise going on out there. School's going. as applicant based.
Yeah, that we we take a look at that then and that's consistent with what the words in there tell us.
Okay. As long as we have that flexibility as we go along. And again, as you just alluded to, this doesn't just apply to you know, the this applicant now. This would apply anywhere in town.
Yeah. Okay.
Thanks. So, I'm going to sleep on that last little bit on paragraph H and we'll talk about that next one.
So, after we're done, John will make these changes and we'll we'll discuss a version four at the next meeting. Is that Yeah.
paragraph on lighting. Anybody got any issues with the paragraph on lighting? stuff for safety. Brett Camp is for safety, right?
So,
yeah, he hasn't expressed any to add big show lighting. So, that's your, you know, we're just we're just addressing safety lighting, right? Yeah.
Enough to keep it safe. That's it. So, but we don't want to start But again, I'm only going with what I seen there.
I like that. But it's just for
big spotlights out there. Again,
well, he has not expressed any wants to bad show lighting or big lights, so which is good.
Costly,
huh?
That's costly.
Well, that's true, too. Yeah. But bam.
Yeah. Moving out of the site plan. This is where we will include the the narrative description of proposed events and activities including So, you want to put those words in there?
I think so. Yeah.
So, I'm sorry, Jed. You want the wording including setup
and and tear down. So it'll be yeah right where you first have your first underline a narrative description events and activities including schedule for setup and narrative.
Okay, I'm going to have to sketch that in. I I can't type on this but yeah. Okay.
Okay, I got you. I I will annotate that. Actually it's kind of under activities but including setup and ter actually lines it's almost redundant those two lines
it is but you know I did take it out I had second thoughts about that. we there's probably you know other things that would be helpful for the commission in making its determination that we don't have in that paragraph. And but as we look at the application, we can ask questions and and ask them. So one of the things that might be worth talking about here is we were talking about agric. So the agriculturally related events with a site plan review essentially we have none of this latitude that we do with special permit. if it comes in and meets the time requirements, it's good to go. Kind of like what we saw in Bill Dollar General, it was under the the size limit put in our regulations and the as long as as they met our regulations, we we couldn't couldn't change it, couldn't turn it down. But with special permits you can't just point out that we added back in and that was one of the things that that we said we were going to talk about here is I think we leave the words the way it is there. We'll find out if we you know normally through the course of working with the guy we we you know we get all the information we need might not be able to force him to do anything but I can't figure out what that might be at this point. And again, you know, a version ago, we didn't have any site plan review for those things. We were
just going to give the guy a pass. So, I I think we've significantly upgraded from that. and I'm willing to leave that as it is for now. If we get bit, we'll change it. And then on the the last page, non-aggriculture accessory permit approval shall be issued. Should we do we want to include the agricultural in that one-year thing? Just want to voice my opposition to regulating staples having horse shows. run by again.
I just want to voice my opposition to regulating stables having horse shows or riding events or things like that.
Okay. But you know, still if a guy's having a horse show, don't we don't we have a responsibility to make sure we got parking, sanitary facilities, all that kind of stuff. If it becomes an issue like parking on the town road and it's causing a problem, that's a law enforcement issue.
I think, you know, there's
Well, isn't a horse show on at a horse
?
That's already an allowed usage. We don't need to even
It's regulated under this this reg.
But that's that's not an accessory special. That would be an actual That's right. usage spell,
right? it would retire a a permit for for the horse.
So I don't understand why it would be I'm just if you could clarify.
Yeah. So I don't know.
Wouldn't wouldn't the number of participants dictate the the the level of permit required? I mean, because if you have if you have, you know, if you you run a horse farm and you have a few people over, that that's one thing. If you have a horse farm and you're hosting 25,000 people, that's a that's still a horse show. It's just a different magnitude that the the town would have some interest in, wouldn't it?
Wow.
I think isn't that covered under the state of Connecticut allowed as usage of agricultural land already? No, the state in any
No, the state the state has a a non a non-nuisance policy about agriculture, but that's that's about the agriculture itself. When you're bringing people in cars, that's that's ceases to be strictly agriculture.
Do we have any horse farms in Andover that have a significant number of horses? But I thought the state just did the the newest one was the farms are exempt from their own if it's actual has to do with their farm if it's educational or part of their farming those are already exempted town permits and all that regular rules. So that is, you know,
the state regulation on agg on on what is farming and whatnot specifically states
that it does not override local zoning.
Okay. But
I can testify to that because I worked for the Department of Agriculture for 35 years.
Do we need to start so
adding that in? I mean I don't I
'm just saying that if you go right back to the very first definition.
Okay. it specifically says Porsche owners.
Oh, it does. I did not see that. Thanks for pointing out.
It doesn't make special access for use.
Well, Wayne doesn't need to go away.
So, we're allowed to regulate,
but I I will defer to I'm okay with getting a site plan and showing where is the the thing going to be and where are you going to park and all that kind of stuff.
Okay.
What do you think next guy? You want the agricultural accessory uses be trial period?
Can we just say agricultural and non-aggricultural? to him.
But we can't say agricultural special permits,
but we can say agricultural non-aggricultural site plan.
No, can't do that either.
You can say accessory special permit.
Well, go back up to the definition, John. See what is the definition? It's agricultural accessory use and non-aggricultural accessory use. So now go back down to the bottom. I think the words you want are agricultural accessory use and nonaggriculture accessory special permit. approval shall be issued for trial period for one year.
Okay. Yeah. I agree with you. So that starts out saying agricultural and non-aggricultural accession permit approval shall be for a trial period of one here.
Nice.
Now, again, with the site plan, if they if they comply with our rules, we don't have any latitude in that. And that $50 fee will apply to both permits.
It'll be what?
And the $50 fee, the very last line.
Yeah.
Will apply to both permits. Agricultural accessory use. Okay.
And non agriculture access.
Just Yeah. Just saying that's the way it's constructed now. Okay. Not that we have a way of collecting it.
I think I'd like to quit put there for tonight. You know, if if John you tweak that up the way we did, we'll we'll get a chance to review it and we'll continue deliberations at the next meeting. But I think we've had a chance to talk about all the issues and I think we've got consensus on what it ought to be and I just keep up with a question when talking about agricultural accessory uses. It seems like you said the horse farm and horse show are so close to the same thing. It's like how can that be an accessory? What about a dairy farm that sells ice cream? Is that an accessory use then?
Selling ice cream is not agriculture.
Okay. Well, so it's the the the the major difference and I think the thing that we're trying to get our arms around is when the the basic agricultural use begins to engage with the public for one reason or another and and bring people to the property, generating traffic, generating noise, generating waste, generating the all these things that are above and beyond standard agricultural uses, which is cultivation of the land and you know producing far food and fiber. You know, bringing people in for a horse show is is, you know, it it is not about raising the horses. It is about engaging the public in in you know, an agriculturally related thing, but it's not agriculture. That's what we're trying to get our arms around. When it when it becomes it's, you know, you could you could have Well, I don't I've made my point.
I see what it is. Thank you. And again, not perfect. better than our sign regulations, but far from perfect. So, okay. everybody okay with you know, we'll hit it again for a little bit on the next meeting, but I think we got through all the issues. We got 99% of it hashed out. The the thing that I got to think about the most is this sound level question. So 80 is our number. If if the town is this 80 across the street, that's going to be their number.
I don't I don't know. I don't like it. I didn't want to write.
Well, you got it down to nine o'clock. Yep. I give them 80.
Okay. I'm going to move on to correspondence.
Oh, the pool. The pool shred.
Say again.
The pool shed.
New business. Item B. any business doesn't have that. Oh, okay. So, here
and and and not to not to not to jump back, Jed, but we blew completely past the PCD discussion.
Oh, yeah.
Doesn't have any of that stuff on it.
I thought maybe this is what you handed me when we were
Yes, thanks. Let me let me look at the real here.
Wow, there's more stuff on here than I
thought there were.
You know what that's
You had one little business. I had one.
Yeah.
Doesn't say much better.
You asked me to put that on there, Jen.
Yeah, I know. Okay, so here's here's the deal. The whole program over at the elementary school wants to put an 8 by12 shed someplace
and we can pull up a drawing on the screen if you want to see it.
don't don't
even want to see it. Right.
So, my concern, my my feeling is that the 8 by12 shed is smaller than the gazeos that we put over in the what's the name of place down the road there? The golf course. No, the special service the the network.
Network. Yeah. So when we we did that we we said that that we had two options. If it's the commission made by resolution permit the zoning enforcement officer to authorize minor non-substantial deviations from an approved special permit or substantial changes to the special permit and variances shall be treated as new applications for approval and shall be submitted and acted upon in accordance with these regulations. So those are the two choices we have. We can either let Wayne take a look at where it's going to be and all the, you know, the setback issues and all that kind of stuff and authorize it or we can ask for a new special permit to put the shed in.
Plus, it's under 200 square ft.
Okay. Yep. It's it's always the CEO just so so
I'm just looking at it like a shed like any other shed.
I got you. So then I'm glad glad you brought that up then. so I would make a motion that we permit the zoning enforcement to authorize minor nonsubstantial deviation from the approved special permit for the placement of the shed. I'll start.
Okay. Thank you, Scott. Any further discussion on that?
Is it Do they know where that's going?
There's quite a basketball court. It's here
information playground they put out there. They have a beautiful. Okay. Break it out for us, Wayne. You're not even going to see it. It's behind the behind.
Okay. I was thinking the upper is upper
parking lot. There's not going to be parking spots anyway. But yeah, if it's behind somewhere
Yeah. So there would be no
hearing none then I'll call for vote in
I vote I motion passes 52. Okay. Oh, Jessica is here.
Yep. Do you have any questions?
Oh, I'm sorry, Jessica. Did we make it too easy for you?
So, what do I do next?
Go talk to Wayne.
You've already done it. You submitted the the zoning application. So,
and then I did the Highland thing tonight that I was asked to do.
Right. Eastern Highlands got to weigh in on it and I got to run it by Joe, the wetlands agent, but it it all should be pretty easy from here.
Okay. So, you guys will be in contact with me then.
Yep.
Thank you so much.
Well, and and if you had to wait through two hours of stuff,
Yeah. I knew it was going to be pretty easy. Didn't know you were there.
Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you for coming.
Byebye.
Okay. Well,
she wanted to she wanted to find out more about my pancreas purchases. So, that we kept her busy. okay. So, in brief and and yeah, though my colleague Janal is is here and and we appreciate her sitting through this. so where we are right now with the PC is that we have written and reviewed all of the substantive chapters to this point. and we are we are sort of nearing the nearing the the point in which we're going to put everything together into a a complete draft to to send around in advance of a public hearing. what we added new over the over the last month is a summary of the survey responses which I which I sent out and we can talk about a little bit if you want and the implementation matrix that I think is probably a little bit detailed to go through this evening but I wanted to call your attention to it. I just put it up on the screen. It's fairly long. It's 13 pages. and this basically represents there are there are six substantive chapters that we that we talked through quality of life, affordable housing, natural resource protection, economic development, complete streets, and climate change and resilience. Those six. And so each of those six chapters, which again we reviewed over the last six months or so, had action items assigned to them. We have basically taken all of the action items and let me make this a little bit bigger so you can see the the layout and approach here. is we have
taken each of the action items which is the the first column on the left added four additional columns. one for lead entity. So basically whose job is this action supporting entity who's supposed to help time frame obviously when when over the next decade should we begin undertaking this and the four and the fourth additional column is cost estimate and I broke this down broadly into order of magnitude cost one dollar sign being less than 10,000 two dollar signs being between 10 and 100,000 three being between 100,000 and a million and then four dollar signs being a million all of these things have been basically filled in by me and my team based on you know how we understood these these
elements to be. But obviously the very specific priority is up to this commission u because you are basically establishing the to-do list for the community over the next decade. so this is you know this should be considered a draft. Obviously, all the action items in the left column we've already looked at, we've already talked about. but this this is essentially, you know, in shorthand, this is this is the to-do list from the the PC. So, I'm I'm happy to answer questions about the approach or if there's some specific, you know, quibbles people have, but I would ask you to take a look at this over the next couple of weeks and and send any any thoughts or comments to me. the I'm gonna Oh, I'll take this off the screen. I can put it back in just a second, but I I I want to sort of get through the the big picture here.
the goal the overall goal was to look at adopting this plan by the end of this calendar year, which means December. we need to basically have the draft done and in place two months ahead of the public hearing so that we can send it around to the office of policy and management to the board of selectmen, post it with the town clerk and and make sure it's available as a full draft to the public. you know, it doesn't have to be the final final layout with all the pictures and and the, you know, the final desktop publishing, but the content should be all in place. Again, we have basically all of the content in place because we've sort of written the chapters as we go. The question I have for you is between today, tonight, and the next meeting in October, which hopefully we can present to you the complete document of of text. again, not the final layout, but the the the the plan itself, the document for basically receipt and scheduling of a public
hearing. And my question for you is what would be the preferred method for giving you guys the chapters to take another look at? I could send it all as a single package or if you'd like, we could I could send you, you know, two chapters a week over the next month so you you have some bite-size opportunity to kind of digest. but we're we're basically at the point where we're going to be stitching it together and giving it to you as a as a package for receipt at your October meeting.
So, how many chapters were there? Was it six? You said
there are six substantive chapters. I forwarded on on Thursday or Friday whenever I sent this stuff around. I sent I believe the introduction section that included sort of the background about like what is a PCD what you know what are the requirements the the background demographics or you know our housing our population that sort of thing the introduction chunks and then there are so that's like two or three chapters depending on how we we define it. Then there are the six substantive chapters and then there's the implementation. So it's I don't know call it 10 chapters.
Okay. so I guess you know when when we were talking the other day I like the thought about a chapter a week and we review through it and it's not so overwhelming. Maybe it needs to be two chapters a week. We got 10 total chapters. anybody anybody got a better way than that? I mean, some of them are pretty kind of short. Should be pretty smooth read at this point. We've already talked about it that got tweaks, but and that doesn't mean that it can't be changed again. You know, we've got a public hearing to go through and and we can change it based on the things we learned there. and that sort of thing. But but if we don't, we ought to have a chance to read it again before we put it up on the website for the public to say this is our big document that takes us through the next 10 years. So, anybody not okay with two chapters a week? Maybe you can make maybe you can marry up a long one and a short one so that you don't get two uglers together or something.
Yeah, we can we can give you the conservation chapter on in one week and then everything else the following week because that's sort of the division of length. but yeah, we'll we'll we'll give you two two appropriate bite-sized pieces. I guess the other thought I had on the implementation matrix, you said that it was long and boy that was my thought. You know, there's a bunch of stuff there and if somebody were to ask me, okay, so what's what's your top three?
I'd be hardressed to do that looking here. And I was thinking it would be nice for conservation, economic development, complete streets, you know, whoever the lead is for those chapters. We ask them to go back and with their team, sometimes there's a team, sometimes there's not. Economic development, they got a a group that they could look at, but if they were to to say, "Here's my top three." And then it would be nice, you know, we've got this cost estimate thing. It would be nice to have a priority list. And I'm thinking one, two, or three, you know, priorities, high, medium, low, whatever. And, you know, if we got a high priority, low cost, boy, those are the ones we're going to go after quick. But, we've got to have a priority listing. And then we've got to have the the top three things that, you know, we want handover to be. And there's some that we're going to have to do is is our group like probably a quality of life one. I think that's going to be ours to do. But it would be nice to get input from
the different leaders of things on what their top three are and then just prioritize each of these things as high, medium, and low priority I guess is the most self-explanatory as opposed to going one through three. Any thoughts on that part? Well, and and to a certain extent, I mean, we can we can do that distribution and we'd have to probably talk about exactly who should get copies of this, but in many ways, the the public hearing is is also an opportunity to to get that sort of input you know, from from the general public or or some other stakeholders that say, "Oh, you know, like you you're calling this out for, you know, you don't have to get started on this for four or five years. we really like you to get started on this right now. And so like during the public
hearing that input can be sort of received and digested also.
Yes, we we will get some of that. But if we don't take the first crack at that ourselves, I think we're,
you know, when we go off to brief that, you know, somebody should say, "Okay, well, what's the big deal then that you what do we really want to do here?" You got nine pages of 12 pages of action items. You know
hat what I would like to make sure is that the next time we look at this action item thing is in 10 years from now when we get ready for the next one. Then I thought planning and zoning did a very good job of fighting through, you know, all the recommendations from the last one and put the changes into the regulations that were there. And I think that's going to be very important for us to do. but some of these other things, you know, I think it's important that we know what the big tickets are so that we can write a a little beat in and say something about that, you know. I I guess Eric's going to do complete streets. Patrick's going to do economic development. And and I'm sorry, Jed. So, is the idea to just
check the priorities or to to to pick off the top three, top five, something like that, and and flag them? So both top three and prioritize the the bunch of actions that they got high, medium or low because you know economic development could come in and say your battery is running low.
That's my battery running. Okay. plug it in.
My battery is fine.
Yeah. I got no place.
What you doing there? Are we going red? Good.
Oh, hey. It'll be all right till I get back surgery and then maybe John, you, me, and Eric are going to have to do some work on this on some of these things. And maybe Eric's that's unfair to expect him to do it. He's got his plate very full. Maybe it's just you, me, and you and me have to get together and go through some.
Yeah, we can do that.
Okay. so yeah. So, all right. So, we will we'll but broadly speaking, we will start distributing a couple of chapters a week between now and the next meeting.
Yeah, I was going to make fun of the economic development. I know their number one priority is going to be to move the public course over to the transfer station and and that's going to be the high dollar side. But
yeah, we'll see how it go.
Really?
All right, they're gone. Let me pause the
All right. We can't see you yet, but everyone seems active. John, can you hear us?
I can hear. We can hear you. Can't see you, but we can hear you.
Can you hear us? Okay.
Yeah, it's fine.
Okay. I don't know if I can.
All right. There we go.
Okay. Well, based on based on the technological challenges here. We're going to do a couple of things, but zoning agent report. Okay. let's see. Cool shed zone change. I noticed at 12 Center Street they started framing finally. Finally.
they got a foundation.
Yeah, foundation's been there for a while.
Okay.
Framing's going up if that's news. then I I went out to our Pineriidge.
what's he building? Just a residence. Okay. as far as I know.
Well, that was something that Jim brought me to early on pointing it out.
Yeah.
And I drove by a few times.
We want money to build a duplex.
We can't build a duplex.
That's why I as a question. So, rookie
went by went over to Pine Ridge. George Korea Carrera and I don't know if Scott's been over he did remove the or he did smooth out the wood chips and stuff as as had been discussed and pulled back the bill that he pushed down over the embankment in the southeast corner. Yeah, southeast corner. and exposed the U can that marks the corner of of the lot. Although it it's above the ground by about an inch, I'd say I looked at it was underground. That's because the water's still coming off the hill right on top of it. It's covering it up. He did I mean does have silk fence above it and below it. He's supposed to have a whale in there to move the water,
but right now the sil fence is is kind of in the way.
No water supposed to go on somebody else's property. Your water supposed to stand up. You're supposed to have a swale that takes it off that
Oh, that's right. You can see where it's coming through the ENS and down right on top of it and it's covering up the tit.
So he needs to pull back even further than he needs to put that way on,
right? that's my report something else I can report on but I believe we're having an executive session for that or maybe not
we're we're getting pretty late in the evening here right I'm having second buzz on that but there's nothing to report from the inland wetlands water course agent and so we're down planted I don't have a ton additional to report other than what we talked about I have participated in the last couple weeks a few transportation safety and transportation priority meetings along with Eric and members of Crag. so we we you know identifying again for for long-term planning purposes identifying priority intersections, priority improvements. and we you know Eric and I went through a lot of that. they're also going to be this Thursday a staff level meeting in Eric's office about the kickoff of the design project for the trail that's going to connect the the the town hall complex with the airline trail overland. not the not the Routes 316 lots plan, but the but the multi-use trail that's going to go through the the back land and and connect up with the Hop River Trail. So, that design is going to get kicked off on Thursday. that design is is grant funded. We got a grant from D Rec Trails. so that's that's all I have additional.
Okay. Thanks, John. Next up is public speak. Miss Hutchinson, you have anything else for us at this point?
No, I don't. Thank you very much.
Okay. Do I have anything else?
Nothing at this time. Thank you. Okay. Approval of the minutes. I make a motion to approve the public hearing and regular meeting minutes for Tuesday, August 19th, 2025.
Just one small thing.
Yeah. under 9C town planner etc. The second line says along route six and the op river.
Oh yeah. Okay. Should be river then. Yeah.
I no I was using my cochnney accent at the time.
Anything else, Leah? No.
Okay. So, I'll modify my motion to approve the public hearing in regular meeting minutes from Tuesday, August 19th, 2025 as amended. Seconds. Any further discussion? Calling for a vote. Dam. Scott
Hi,
Liam.
I
Patrick abstain and I vote I as well passes 401 Patrick abstaining. Okay. I guess you know will even in spite of the plainness given that there is activity going on over at the gravel pit I will make a motion to enter executive session for the purpose of discussing the gravel pit. the attendees would be all commission members, town planner, zoning enforcement officer means
Jet, I'm sorry, Jet. Jet Jet
Sorry. One quick element of discussion just logistically if I might ask Katherine if she would prefer to stay on and and we will return to the regular session right before adjournment or I if the adjournment is the only thing left I I would ask perhaps that Katherine would excuse herself and we don't have to go into a separate breakout room. We'll just stop recording. But if if if Cath if you'd prefer to stick around, we'll go into a a room.
Will there be any action or report or anything done after the
re will not session pertaining to the
There will not be anything any action taken
and no discussion
that I would be interested in. Correct. That's right. Yeah.
Then yes, if all I need to do is just log off, assign out. Correct.
Yep.
All right. yes, I will do that right now and then test to make sure I've gotten out because now I have to find Oh, right. Leave meeting, right?
Correct. Thank you. Thank you, Katherine.
That's not a problem. Thank you.
Good evening. All right. so, okay. So, Jed, I interrupted the vote that we're still on. That was discussion. You need to call the the the motion and I will turn off the recording.
Okay. The camera member, do we vote?
Here we go. Motion made second.
Dan,
Scott,
Leanne,
hi.
Patrick,
I vote as well. The motion passes 500.
Okay. well, thank you all very much for hanging in there tonight. It's way later than than I thought we'd be.
I'm sorry, Jed.
I It may just be worthwhile noting that you've returned out of executive session at 10:12 and no actions were taken.
Okay, very good. I think you just got that in the record. Thank you, John.
Yep.
And then next meeting is October 21st to be held as a hybrid meeting. And I make a motion that we adjourn.
And seconds. All in favor say I.
Okay. Motion passes 500. Thank you all for attending tonight.