My apologies. I I put up on the screen just now the sound sound attenuation section.
Yep. I see for example to mitigate the sounds like 10 p.m. that that seems a little late from for me at least and the sound will travel at that time to the neighborhoods behind where those amplifiers are going to be pointing towards and if there's anything in there in writing to mitigate that sound trap to stop it from traveling so far. I know you can pro we can hear like the the the cars on Route 6 for example, right? and they don't have no amplified sound. They're just traveling. now if we're having wedding venues and all that, it's great that we're doing stuff over the town, but at the same time, we'll have to how should I say respect the rights of the other people, the other homeowners on the back side, right? So, I just wanted to point that out there and, and also emphasize the point that, the 8 acres limitation there
that that was referenced. but by that criteria there would be a lot of individuals or or corporations or farms etc that can actually apply for this and and what kind of can of worms are we opening basically.
Understand?
Okay. Thank you.
Yeah. Let me come up here like here such a good bit. So, I'm not going to read through all of this. This is just me keeping my thoughts. I have a bunch of observations in no particular order, just things that I want to enter onto the record so that it can be included in your deliberations and and thoughts on this. somebody mentioned the gazebo events that happen over here, the town recck commission and the fact that the town doesn't have any noise ordinances. We have two or three of these every year. There's amplified music coming from them. This is right in the middle of a residential district. I haven't seen anything on paper regulating, describing, discussing these events. and I think that's problematic because right now what's happening here in the context of what happens right over there really looks like selective enforcement. So I think this needs to be taken into consideration. Okay? Whatever comes up here has to apply to what happens over there. Also, just because it's the town
doing it versus a person, we're still talking about amplified sound, traveling, residences, potential disruptions. So that's that's point number one. The second thing is, you know, I've been living here 37 years. One of the reasons I moved to Andover was because it's clean and safe and quiet, but I've come to understand that quiet does not mean silent.
And at the same time, detectable noise does not equal automatic nuisance. Okay? I can go outside at 2 in the morning and hear the trucks coming down Route 87 with their Jake brakes. in the springtime the town for hours on end is cleaning the culverts with these enormous vacuums and and that travel that sound travels per miles. My neighbors mow their lawns. There's a gun range here in them. Okay, all of these things are sounds that travel. But as I've thought about this and considered it, I've come to the conclusion that for everything that we consider a minor annoyance to us, somewhere progress is being made. Something is being accomplished. That awful sound from the culverts being cleaned means that the town isn't going to flood somewhere. That truck coming down Route 87, for all
we know, could be carrying life-saving medicine for one of the hospitals. So, we can't live in silence. We can't think that we're going to live in silence. And in the case, now it may sound trivial, okay? But we're talking about a business that's expanding, that pays taxes, that provides a service that people enjoy. So again, there's this balance that has to be considered between what's happening and some people find it positive, some people find it negative. I just want want this to be out there for us for us to think about this. and just as an aside, when the DP regulations were mentioned, I went quickly looked it up and I saw of course there are exclusions for lawn equipment doing regular hours because otherwise we couldn't get anything done in this town.
And just as an interesting thing, I saw that there is an exemption for experimental equipment if you're trying to determine the amount of sound that the equipment makes experimentally. So I think in my in my position as an exper as an electrical engineer, I'm going to start designing experimental amplifiers for you to use at every venture. Anyway, another thing I've done a lot of service to this town over the last 10 years, most recently with the Charter Revision Commission. And the thing that seemed to be the most significant thing that we did wasn't the the the things that we decided upon. It was the things that we could decide on. we were tasked with 15 or 20 different things. And the first thing that we did was whittle everything down and decide what was important. We we separated the wants from the needs. And that seemed to be the most important
thing out of that entire exercise for me. At least it's the thing that that people have come to me and said, "Yeah, that's the most valuable thing that you do." And that's something that I think when we look at all of the minutia that go into this to try to separate within the context of everything that I've talked about here, the wants from the needs, we have here a business that's trying to expand and trying to provide a service that people have said that that they want. And and as I said in my last set of statements to this commission, I see the commissions within town as trying to enhance the town and trying to facilitate the things that the town wants to do rather than to
serve as obstacles. Granted, you know, we're trying to protect property values and and all the things that go along with it. That that is the charge of of planning and zoning. I have to say when when Ryan, you know, he's he's my friend, he's my neighbor. When he first spoke to me about this last year, about the few complaints and this proposal, my advice to him wasn't constructive. I basically said for him to ignore the commission, only I didn't say it quite that politely. and you know because my feeling was was that and maybe this is the the libertarian in me that you know we live in a country where everything is allowed until it is prohibited and that is one of kind of the the bedrock foundations of the common laws on which this country is is founded. A lot of other countries it's exactly the opposite. In the military, it's exactly the opposite where things aren't allowed until they're allowed. Here, we don't work that way. And the advice that I gave to him was that the town and this commission only has the jurisdiction over you that it already has. Well, what you decide to surrender to them. And that's what these new regulations are. They're self-imposed limits over what is now currently an unregulated set of circumstances. Seeing the amount of effort that's gone into this, looking at the number of people who are affected and complain versus the number who are speaking positive or have spoken positively about this. I'm I I you can't obviously can't completely disregard they have credibility, but you have to ask yourself in considering all of this, what are in the
best interests of the town? What things serve the town the best? And after having looked at this in detail and looking at the amount of effort that's been devoted to this, I think about the kind of triage that we did in the the charter revision commission and I'm slowly circling around to the advice that I initially gave him. I'll just leave it at that. Okay. Thanks, Bob. Any other comments? Jeff Ballard 174 Lake Road. I don't know Ryan to pitch at all. I've been to the last concert they had and I went to the Andover and over collaboration crafts fair where I believe they had music also. I think it's a great idea that people are getting out of their houses that they're going to socialize with their neighbors. They're going to they're going to They're going to meet people. They're going to get to know people. They're going to get to talk to their neighbors,
socialize. Hartford Jazz Society, the oldest jazz society in America, still operating, is running a Monday night jazz in Bushnell Park. When it's in the city, they get over at 11:00 and then disperse. Harford Jazz Society is also promoting this weekend Hartford Jazz the festival which also gets over at Leic. I I recently attended the first Thursday of the month down between Marboro and and East Ton on the right hand side is a farm and I don't know the name the farm.
Farmer Carter Hill.
Okay. far on Carter Hill and that was a great venue. and it, you know, had amplified music and I believe they got over at 10:30 and then dispersed. I've lived in town for 45 years now. I live on Lake Road. I can hear the traffic on six at night. That's normal. I don't find that distractive or annoying or whatever. It's just light. when I moved into town, I was when the red bar was going on and the right away, they used to have bingo, they used to have bands, they used to have movies. I believe that got over at 10:00. My understanding being in the lake zone where sound travels across the the water horrendously it's almost amplified where it doesn't have the barriers of forests and trees and and and and hills or whatever. The curfew to my understanding in the lake district it was 10 10:00. Now I think that is not unreasonable. I don't think that 11:00 is unreasonable depending on whether it's a Friday or Saturday night or whether it's during the weekend. I think that ought to be taken into account what day and and what the what the venue is. I I I'm all in favor of it. I I think that you know you should be looking at what is the decimal level of root six as being a background and if it's a 75 dB 60 certainly to me is not is not outrageous or or or a problem. I have been working on for years now for the hunters up at Forest Stage Farm on Paris Swamp. When I'm up there on Sundays and Saturdays during the day, I can hear the the gunfire. I can hear the traffic on
the sh. It's I have no problem with more business, more people coming into town to spend their money. We're a small community with not a big tax base other than the few businesses. I don't have a problem with that. I I think it's a a very positive direction for the town to be moving in. I think the economic development of the town is is in line with this and that is my opinion. Thank you. Okay.
Thank you, Jeff. Anybody else? Yeah,
Lordy Mayor Valley Road. First of all, I want to commend Brian for taking so much time and energy into this document. For somebody that's not on a board commission or involved in municipal work, you have done a really good job. I also want to just note that the definition of a farm that you have in your regulations is not what the EA490 defines as a farm. There's no acreage requirement for PA490. It just there's other things. So you have three acres, but that's not the same for PA490. You could have an acre, quarter of an acre, 100 acres. So I think you just need to determine what you're considering the farm or not the farm by those two things. That's all I have to say.
Okay. Anybody else?
Okay. you said you'd go back if I thought something else just
and in fact I would like you to start from the beginning on yours so we can have it all recorded now. So to get you ready for that I'm going to read one that I got sent to me into the record but I I would like to get your comments in the public record and we weren't recording and I apologize for that. I do I just do a terrible job. I would be fired. So there you go. But this is a this is a letter from Marcus and Paula King on Oak Farms Road, dear members of the planning zoning commission. We are ready to express our
support for the pitch family and farm to continue to hold events for the community at their location. These performances have become a feature of our community, bringing people together in a way to entertain and connect with others in our community. Live music and other types of shows at the farm create a space where we can all gather, relax, and enjoy shared experiences. These events strengthen community ties by giving people a reason to come together in person and build relationships that extend beyond the shows themselves. By providing a stage for local musicians, comedians, and performers, Pitch Family Farm helps local talent with an opportunity to perform. Supporting local talent keeps our creative community alive and gives artists a chance to reach new audiences, practice their skills, and contribute to the culture of our area. Events at the farm are inclusive and accessible, providing affordable entertainment option for families, young adults, and seniors alike. Rather than traveling long distances or paying high ticket prices for entertainment, residents can enjoy high quality performances right in their own community. Hosting events to the farm helps maintain the vitality and preserves it as a treasuring space for the public to enjoy. This use of the land aligns with community values of keeping our rural heritage intact while allowing people to gather and celebrate the arts in a peaceful natural setting. I respectfully urge the committee to continue to support music and comedy events at the Fitch family farm. These gatherings enhance the quality of life, strengthen our local culture and economy, and make
our community a more connected and enjoyable place to live. Thank you for your thoughtful consideration and for your commitment to keeping our community thriving. Sincerely, Marcus and Bolin.
Very well put. Okay, so now we're coming back to you, Catherine. I apologize but
yeah could I first go through with a new I'm focusing on
page two under standards it provides property the property housing act or activates must be classified as farmland with autonomy or under public act 490 and I'll be addressing that with I'm readressing that and my question is that the term adverbs and activities include both the agricultural accessory uses and the nonaggricultural accessory uses and is that consistent with one B on page one. This is now referred to the new the new law which provides the minimum parcel size for site s and approval of non agriculture related uses or events on farm shall be 8 acres parcel business and indust or industrial zones shall be sufficient space for vendors the public and parking multiple contiguous parcels under the same archive one parcel So, I think that language needs some clarification.
I agree with you. And again, I want to get the, you know, anybody that's holding an event, we need to have sufficient space for vendors, public and parks. So, it's not just parcels in the business or industrial zone. So, we
will clarify that that
I think one of my other comments was it's not clear whether or not the we're creating a whole new use or not creating you're providing this even though there's business owner industrial zone that hasn't been clarified that they designate it be a 494 just the language I have
yeah so we'll have to decide whether or not it needs to be a 490
yeah the industrial Yes.
All right. Getting back to forth which is where I started this whole if you could perhaps put up the 10 pages and as I said earlier the 10 pages came from the assessor's office. They report annually to the forestry department with both the farmland and the ag and the forest. What I highlighted on the exhibits up there is the farmland only. The other
category the other listings in there don't include a farm there. So they are they would be the forest one. So that's why they're highlighted. and of these 37 farmland that you're going to find this farmland if that if you go to the end of the report please on the last page if you can read it you can see at the bottom it has a summary and it said excuse me grand total 490 acres 812 12.42 42 grand total count 37 and that's where I got 37 from the highlighted ones which are the farms over the highlighted ones are simply the farms of the 37 20 of them have terms going back. I covered everything under there, but I wanted to say about 490.
Okay.
The farm has 37 acres, sorry, 37 parcels, 20 of which have 10.4 acres in them. U the other thing I'm not sure it was on the recording or not was that you'll notice that some of the parcels the total acreage which is on the right hand side is more than the number of farm plant acres and that is one in some instances to part of the land is also forest land and part of it is just something other that doesn't tell but not every piece of property that would think I'm looking at Hutcherson knows that. So it's that's the farm might have to all be in the farmway.
Does that all the main part of the farm?
Does that include your home as well? Can your home be in 490?
That doesn't show, but that's not in there. That's that's under that's under
seable. But the piece I bought the cold bar property is all of the forest. So that I would qualify for my home 90 some odd acres under New York proposed regulation. I wouldn't qualify for the rest of the what I call the farm which is the acreage I bought from the merit property the seven acres or joints because that's on the forks. So the piece down six would p possibly by taking the industrials off but it wouldn't be the piece on six east of the extra mark. Okay, thank you. Yeah. any other comments? So that I think that's
my Sure. I apologize for this coming out yesterday. I think I said it. I remember. again, I don't know why I even have not on what Bob said. I don't even know why this is me writing this. I'm not a law writer. This should have been a lawyer writing this up. I I did, you know, help and and I I was given help propose this, but again this sounds like to me I I did what I could to put this together as best as I you know that we could. again, I don't know how and why it falls on my shoulders to do this. like Bob said, you know, these are regulations for the town to propose. So, kind of what I wrote was hoping that you, you know, not that it was a final draft, I was hoping that you guys would come and put your input in. I was, we were just giving basics. but again, you know, this is way above my pay grade. but I, you know, I did put a lot of time in, you know, this is my third meeting. and you know, and I mentioned this to, to Wayne that, you know, this is my third meeting. I've been here and there's people on board that haven't even been here, you know, and these are the people that are deciding how I feed my family and they don't have the oxygenity to come to a meeting that they're on the board. So, I think you have to look at
the effort that I'm putting in as well that my you know family has put in to try to you know accommodate this. But you have to understand that you guys are making a decision on what I can do to feed my family. And you know, I just think and again this is way above something, you know, I I I wasn't going to we're not making enough money at the farm for me to hire a lawyer to write this up for me. I've had to have lawyers involved with many other things in this town that I'm paying for. but you know, I appreciate the help John helped and Wayne has been amazing with this too. U, but I didn't think I would be the end all, write all that kind of rolled off the tongue that I would be doing, you know, doing this. So, I was hoping to get, you know, that the final draft would be for you guys to
come up with and have a discussion on and and agree. but as you can see there's there was a lot of there are a lot of people that happened like this last event there was you know 60 people there. ideally for me to make any kind of profit on these would be 75 to 100. Last year I lost on every single one of them but in business we know the first couple years you lose money finance those things start getting built. and and it would be the same thing with the farmers market. I tried putting the farmers market together. Just couldn't get the the draw yet. I'm not giving up on it because I think it's something Andover really needs. so hopefully next year. but again, that's a to $100 profit on a weekend, you know. So these aren't big money makers. It's just really to bring more things to the town. so I again I I'm willing to
give you as much as I can to help facilitate this, but I I you know, I think like Bob said, if there were you guys to help us put these together and do these, the better off we're going to be. So I apologize for getting them late. I really did not think I was the end all on these regulations.
Only the endall because you wanted
Well, trust me, I know. I know. We're in the rush. We don't we're not so and I appreciate you letting that go without going, you know, too haywire,
you know. Yeah. And I'm looking for a little help on on the way ahead at this point. one side of me says we should continue the public hearing till the next time and the town does take the lead from here on to to take what we've heard but I don't know how to do that without deliberation on it to hear what the commission wants and we can't deliberate till we close public hearing so I'm kind of in a loop I could I could write it with John and we we talk about it and then we deliberate on that there and we'd be able to get feedback from you on what you don't like because while you're on this side I'm going to be on this side just a little bit and the right answer is going to be in the middle there somewhere and that's what we're going to get to but John, you got a hint there?
Yeah, I Well, I if the So, so based on what we've heard this evening from both the commission and the public, I think some a few additional changes might be warranted. I I my sense is I think we're we're almost there. but but you know if the commission is interested and willing to you know share other concerns or other things they might want to see modified that would that could provide Ryan as well as you know Wayne and I to sort of help translate some of this stuff enough information to kind of come up with a hoped for final version that could be shared with the town attorney before the next meeting. But I think there there are a few tweaks to be made. I think and and you know I I don't I I can go through some of them that that I've sort of taken notes on right now, but I but I think we're we're
fairly close that you can have a version that would be largely ready for closing of a hearing and and deliberations and deliberations would be another time to to make a few tweaks. You could you could make some edits on the fly. But if there are things that commissioners, including yourself, Jed, are still leaving on the table as concerns that have been unexpressed, I would strongly encourage you to express them here in full view of the public so that so that we can come up with something approaching a final version for next month.
Okay. And yeah, I thought about cutting this regulation down to to two lines. One was going to be the sound level at the property line and the second was going to be the end time and we can we could leave the end time as it's listed now and deliberate that when we get these final other tweaks taken care of and we can put you know some other means other than the state limits that I don't understand you know I think the the words that we had in there before after I went back and and understood that yes, if the music is below background, I can still hear. That's that's what son do out at sea. They listen to real quiet noises and then they can pull that out and but you're going to be able to hear music,
but it's still below background. What about for the realistic
person, common sense? Shouldn't it be similar to what is happening already? like on Route 6,
you know what I mean? Like how could you have my music be forced be lower than what has naturally happened 30 ft away or 100 feet away? So, here's one of the things that I did take away from reading through those state statutes and they have all these timew weighted noise levels. And so if the truck comes barreling through for a minute every 10 minutes, you average that out and it comes down to a low level. Whereas if the band's plan, it's at the higher level for a longer period of time and that gets out there and and that's almost impossible to for me and to figure out to how to do it. That's why there's got to be something that we can look at and make sense. And it's clear public supports what you do.
I don't think I agree.
And so, I would be happy to have the do one more one more round. And I think, you know, there are a couple of inconsistencies. We we know a couple of things to do. I think Wayne, John, and I could probably do that. And and until we get to talking about the end time,
you're henti
I am.
You know, we we we made a big deal about the soccer team and the light shining in the the one neighbor's property, you know, the horse.
Yep. And and so I
That cost us a lot of money though.
It it did. And I felt really bad about that because the guy wouldn't work with us. on coming up with an acceptable plan. I appreciate the fact that you're working with us to try and come up with an acceptable plan when we want to do it. Just like I'd have liked to have had the soccer club still play it here, but we we've got to protect the adjacent property owners, you know, rights to not be and and so that's that's going to be a pick pick a time, you know, different days of the week and and make it all work. And we could do that during deliberation next quarter. So, I guess what what I'm thinking with your your help there, John, is because the the updated draft came out sort of late, didn't give a lot of people a chance to look at it, I would like to keep the public hearing open until the next meeting. hopefully we can get a copy that we can send to attorney Brand about
half, you know, within two weeks so that he can have a chance to look at it, provide comments back. we get together. It doesn't have to be much. and then then we wrap it up. Now, I don't think because this a regulation change and maybe Wayne or John got some insight here. I don't think the 65 days to close the public hearing is pertinent. you know, if somebody had an application for, you know, building something or something like that, we've got to do that clock. But when you get to regulations, well, actually, special permits, I don't think it's, there either. but to make it clean, I would like to have your permission to extend the public hearing by another 30 days. You have the opportunity to do 65 days worth of extensions as we go through process. Okay. So, we'll hold the we'll hold the public hearing open till the next meeting. We'll try to get out the third permission and we'll get you to meeting number four and I appreciate you coming.
I live right down the road. Your number's not big.
Okay. So,
yeah.
With that detail given to Mark Brown.
Yeah. So my goal is two weeks from now we can give a copy to Mark Grants get his comments back before the next goound but I can't
I just to detail I left out getting back to my original report as I had commented on the num number of roads and how that this impacts it's not just route six it's
I think seven 13 or 14 all together seven or eight with the fifth. Yeah, there's a line.
I mean, one more thing to say or
I just wanted to add one thing. You mentioned the whole fight and waiting thing with traffic. Beyond that, there is an entire field known as psycho acoustics. And what's at play here is the fact that music is the recognizable set of stimuli to our brains. Okay? Whereas the sound of a car is more random. And you could have, you know, you talked about one car in 10 minutes and average, you could have actually a much higher level sound from a car and it would be for most people less problematic than music because it is more randomized. It's not something that Well, maybe not white noise. They make noise, round noise or you know those are all different spectral waves of random random noise. But the fact is that it tickles specific psychological parts of our mind is what makes it what it is. And it's what also makes looking at this from the standpoint of just measuring
sound levels a lot more challenging. So okay, thank you. Okay. So, 8:17, we're going to continue this public hearing to the next meeting. Thank you very much for coming tonight. We'll see you next month.
Thank you.
that's good. We're good. Good for now.
Can we Can I be excused for a minute? Just can I be right back?
Most likely. Mr. Heckler is I figured we gave him
I didn't get a chance to pull that in line. Okay, it is 8:20 and I will call the public hearing to order where we're discussing the application of Michael Heckler 71 road and over Connecticut for special permit with site improvements to operate a homebased landscape business and construct two bay garage attached to the existing dwelling and existing bay garage which proposed to be converted to a workshop Six. The application and request is made for sections 4.12A2 Roman 4 and section 23 of the Android zoning regulations. So at this point u I'll turn it over to you Mike and you can tell us what what we got.
Okay. so there was a lot that went on last minute. Not sure really carried on over, but essentially my name is Michael Eckler. I worked for the town of Brian as a mechanic full time for the DPW there. and I have a secondary business that I run as well for doing landscaping, clearing, driveways, everything that's on my part. and essentially I'm looking for storage. Can you speak up just a little bit so we can make sure that we're getting it on the recording? Then
yeah, thank you.
Essentially, I'm looking for storage of my equipment rather than having it be outside where it could be unsightly or we know excavation equipment and whatnot, hydraulics, anything like that. You don't want it leaking period, but they always do. Like that's just you can't keep something perfect. Just doesn't happen. So I would like to propose well I have proposed a expansion of essentially making my two bay garage that's attached right now a now workshop with just all my Can you pull up the picture of what I'm proposing for the
existing
John you want to give me control. Maybe it's better if I do it. Oh, you've got it. Okay.
I I'm not sure if I'm I'm not sure if I'm sharing the right thing. I I
Yep.
That's a floor plan. But there's
also a what does it say? Workshop. Should be one that says workshop.
That's it. Okay. Let's see. can you see my my website screen right now?
Yep. Keep going down.
So building location.
No. Is it existing shop plans?
Yeah. So that is the third or 14 scale of my current garage. I have a lot of stuff that helps me do my job as not only a mechanic, but because I have to have extra tools and whatnot that I don't need at work, I have to bring home. and what I've acred over many years of being a mechanic, 15 years, like engine lifts and all this junk that you don't want outside. so essentially all this stuff that I have that is right now in various storage locations or outside needs to go inside essentially. that fits pretty much my entire garage.
There's going to be no way a car could ever fit in there. so that kind of makes it a workshop in theory. you can't fit a garage, a car in a workshop. and I would be, if the council requires it, removing the doors, putting a man. So, that kind of even more gets rid of that problem. now the proposed garage is because I own a sixheel dump truck, a CDL dump truck, and a 16 foot landscaper trailer that I use for my mini, 12,000lb. I have a a wood chipper, too. fairly large wood chipper. Things that I would like to be able to keep in the garage away from the elements, away from theft, you know, not saying we get it, but when you have $100,000 sitting outside that someone could just go up to and drive away with, it's Yeah, it's not not the greatest idea. And being the fact that we live on a dead end road that people do, you know, come up and turn around in my driveway because I have the easement for school bus.
people do see things that don't usually live there. And, you know, it's it's a little intimidating to me when random strangers that I'm not used to turn around in the east end and go on their way. I don't know where they came from, what they're going to do. I was probably
maybe maybe so come up and you know I don't I do have a lot of junk and that's probably what you've seen in my my my driveway. I do need to tidy up and that will further help me tidy up. I know there's probably questions about why there's so many vehicles. I do have a lot of projects.
Well, I do get I did have that question. Yeah. Yeah, if I figured anyone a little bit scared up the road. I have a lot of projects. I love to tinker. It's one of my big big hobbies that a single guy I'm not married. I just have a girlfriend. a single guy loves to do is just tinker. Keeps his mind off of work. So, I don't have any kids. So, that's fine. That's my advice. I guess you could say that stuff. so again, essentially it would just be for all my equipment and then just any of the extra junk, not cars, you know, anything like that I will be cleaning up and getting rid of or, you know, occasionally I have I have friends that come over, ask for help, ask to stay for a couple days, whatever. I help them think they over that they're not mechanics of our trade. They like things too, but they're just not mechanics. So after course, so that's probably why you see random cars because there's random people.
So that's not part of a separate business go hanging out.
That's just friends hanging out or yeah, just helping out neighbors. Yeah. yeah.
Okay. obviously this document we just recently got.
Yeah. Then Yeah. So, you know, the when when it talks about home occupations, you know, it says the application shall not be considered complete unless the following additional items are in addition to those required by section 23. Y and looks like item one letter that we just got down.
the applicant shall supply the commission with architectural plans for any proposed structure. Any waiverss requested by the applicant shall be submitted in writing and the application checklist shall be filled out by the applicant, reviewed by the zoning agent with the applicant. And so where do we stand on that stuff, Wayne? We do not have a application checklist at this point.
Yeah.
Okay.
But I've I've reviewed the checklist and there's a lot of things that are NA.
Absolutely. Absolutely. But there's a few that are.
Yes.
That's our tool.
I wasn't sure if I should bring that or not because there's so many that are
N. So here we need is for you to get away and Okay. and come up with that because like one of the things that that I think Wayne probably asked you for is a site plan.
And that is in here. The site plan's in there now.
Yeah. It's the It's labeled building location. Essentially everything on that checklist is done. I think
I thought I looked online this morning to make sure there was nothing new that came in over the weekend and I didn't see that but I could be in there. I think that was uploaded well today's Tuesday so I
would Monday. Yeah.
Okay. Maybe maybe it was a little I would say yeah because today I spent working on the agro tourism
thing.
Yeah.
do we look at the site plan because there were a couple of things that that I wanted to discuss why it was important to me that we we got that. It's
in Okay. Well, I'll Yeah, I'll go. I could I could take a look at that. I I have not seen that until now. I I was concerned about the nicely done on the nutrient allocation worksheet. What I didn't know and maybe is on here is so you talk about you're you're collecting the runoff from the roof and and you're going to put that in the drywall. Yeah.
And so how did we size the drywall? How many gallons is it going to hold, you know, to account for that one inch run off on 3,000 square feet of roof space and that sort of thing?
Well, that was for some reason the algorithm in that program automatically did.
So I'm not sure. I have to do my research on that. It it it did it did calculate the amount of of reduction you get, but it doesn't tell you how big the drywall has to be.
Oh, I don't know. I just chose the one inch.
One inch means that that means one inch. So, we have a 1 in rain event. That's one inch of rain coming off 3,000 square ft of roof. Yeah.
So, you figure that out into cubic feet of water.
Okay. in the dry well has to have hold that much cubic feet of water so that it accommodates a one inch rain event that that's what that means.
Okay. And and not intuitively obvious that that was there but I was interested in where the drywall was going to go and where the detention bond was going to go
because we need to keep it separated from your well and your
of course. Yeah. And so that and that might be all on here with the exception of the the the size of the drywall and the size of the detention pond.
Yeah. Which is not on there.
Yeah. And and then you know
I have a catch basin on there, but that's that's only for the driveway. That's for the 180.
So
and that's primarily for any of the water runoff from the road because my road dumps right into my driveway. So any half an inch an inch shield right by garage it's
back. So, other than that, I mean, I figured that would be done more so when we're in the building layout process when we're not in the I get it in its own entirety, but
I figured once I have the finalization on what I have to do for plans and whatnot, then I would go for, you know, what we need to do for the foundation setup and whatnot for for drywalls. But as of right now, it's been so unclear if I'm even be able to move forward with this.
I got you.
The resources available, I don't want to waste.
Yep.
So, I'm with you there. And I I am trying to sort my way through the issues that have already come to bear and and I think I can get through most of them. The the issue that I am struggling with the most is the discussion that Mark Brans provided about the accessory use being I forget the word but it's subord subordinate to your primary dwelling which is why we filed for a special permit to yeah we worded it the special permit should be able to work with the state statutes and not against them like I was before.
Yeah. Well, and and so yes, I understand that you know because it says that any use requiring non-residents or the construction of additional structure that gets you into the special permit. That does not in my mind mean that it still doesn't have to be subordinate to the primary purpose which is the house.
Correct.
So So that's the part that I'm struggling with right this minute. If if your house was 1,600 square f feet at Fpart and your garage was 1,500 square ft for 1599 square ft it would be subordinate to the primary purpose but it's not. It's twice as big.
Yeah.
And and so that's what I am struggling with just a little bit.
Yeah. The other issue that I came to the conclusion on today, I was wrestling with we only allowed twocar garages.
Yes.
Well, in the Lake District.
Yeah. In the Lake District and and so it says twocar garage as of right.
Yes. Which only one car will be in it. Truck. A piece of equipment does not constitute as a motor vehicle,
right? But when it talks about being capable of holding two motor vehicles, I think it says that
but anyhow my conclusion on that. So so you're as of right motor vehicles. We don't say anything in our regulations about what we can do with special permits
in in that case. And I think
something that we probably need for the lake district is with the special permit, we can add something bigger.
Yeah. Because several houses.
So I know how to get I I know how to get past that. So, the the only thing that that I continuing to struggle with a little bit, at least myself, is the accessory use being subordinate to the primary switch of the house.
Yeah. And I forget Wayne and I had a conversation about it more recently. I can't I can't put the words together about it. But essentially because it is just a storage, it's not and it's not like a full-blown it's it's part of the principal structure. And since the special would allow me to have a home occupational right, so to speak, it almost allows for like a dual zone. And I could be using the words wrong could be used.
but that's what I have. Attorney Mark Rans help me out. But
but the and I know there was some discussion about
here's going to be a Yeah, there going to be a small section of the house that's used for office
. Does that mean that this big storage area is not part of the homebased business? No. So all all homebased business is office. The rest is storage as part of the principal structure. Yeah. Well, I'm learning from you as we talk here. Again, I got, you know, journey branch to make sure that we're we're doing what's right there. I would have I would have assumed that I assumed different than that. could be wrong.
Yeah. You know, and that's it. It's going to happen.
And that's why, you know, there's there's more questions that, you know, what exactly services what services do I provide? Well, what services do you provide on site? and and these question those answers bigger on go through these essentially no services from my business on site at all except my own record keeping so therefore it's not a business on my property it's just a name I understand you know and again I'm going to ponder this for a while but it doesn't make sense to me that you can have a huge warehouse to store equipment and we don't consider that part of the homepage business especially when it's bigger than the house. So yeah, so I will continue to ponder that if some if distance and I guess I wish I had u you know some of the other fellow sonars in the lake region that you know have three car or or massive barns. They're labeled as
compliment, but I
future have future meal. Yep.
And then you have one of the other landscaping companies that's right off this road here. he has a
Sears and Sun.
Yeah.
Yep. And so
and Yep. I honestly don't know what Sears and Son's back has back there. He's way back in the woods where I can't see. You're right close to the road.
Yep. But nobody I mean I I don't think a DPW guy has come off my road in eight months.
The amount amount of people that actually come off my road is very
Yeah, I got you. So So at this point Wayne, do you have any other comments further discussion tonight?
No, I don't. I I think this I think we I don't know if you're going to close the public hearing or continue it. you know the only thing I see missing is the checklist as far as what is needed for an application. and other than that, I you know, I I did put my memo out to the board of what I thought the board needs to consider as far as this application is concerned. I don't know if you want to everybody got it. When did you put that out?
hopefully I sent it to you. Monday. Yeah. I did not see that. I was going to ask if there was an update to it.
yes. Well, there is one for this because the the ZBA is is separate and distinct from the special permit application.
The one I the one I read was dated early June, updated 18 June was the last correspondence that I
This is actually dated the 14th
of June.
No, July. Yeah. So, it it is it is in the it is in it is in exhibit, John.
There's a memo to the board to the commission. I'm sorry.
Commission.
A memo. I'm sorry. Memo from
e. Checking mine, too.
Okay. Hang on.
Yes,
I got it. So yesterday memo to PZC 714.
All right, I got you. Here it comes.
Is that visible?
Yep.
So yes. So go ahead scroll down. That looks like what was in the previous,
right? I I did update it. I I got a a height dimension from Mr. Heckler on Monday that is in this not 20. It's 26 ft high.
So, it's not quite double square footage. It's actually less square footage than the house. It's,260.
I'm not sure where the double came in.
Yeah. Missed one. that came from
because you because you and eliminated the second floor.
Oh yeah. Okay. Yep. Yeah. I remember we ran into a problem with that last last meeting. So I I revamped got rid of the second floor completely because
Okay. That's good to that's good to know. I didn't know that
just now. So that that helps a lot.
So it's down to,260 ft. Yeah.
Okay. still would have been less.
That's That was probably a a big stumbling block for me that makes that one and that was going to be my recommendation. Get rid of that second floor.
Yeah.
And we're probably
and my residence, if you pull up the property card, it's 2900 ft. So, that also makes a pretty big difference.
Okay. Does that count? Does that count for basement?
Yeah. So second floor to the second floor.
Okay. So got that. Now one of the things that Wayne I think you had in the a earlier memo is still yet your number two item here. It would be nice to have a list of what the equipment is that you have.
Yeah.
Because I've been by your house a couple of times and I have yet to see an excavator.
Yes.
I saw you seen it.
Yeah. I saw it yesterday.
Okay.
Yeah. It's down psychology. Yep. Now,
and that's I think the equipment that you're both want to get into the garage. Can you can you get it? Are you going to drive it in the garage or you can put it on trailer back in the garage?
I mean, does it matter?
It does with a 10 foot garage door can go down.
Okay. But still,
as long as it fits.
Yeah, it's I mean, I got to fit under a bridge. So either way it's gonna be it's gonna be down whether I go whether I drive it in it's gonna be
very good. Are you not gonna worry about that?
Yeah.
The you know I saw I saw two big trailers
three trucks.
Yeah.
Your chipper and no excavator. So if we just get if we just get a list of what the stuff is so we know
and having place with IDM that will be helpful I have had that discussions those discussions with Mr. Heckler. And as a as a point as a zoning agent, I would like to see the board better nail down the exactly what they are approving. so in the future, you know, for instance, I would like to know exactly, you know, is it a 10,000lb excavator or a 20,000lb excavator?
Okay. Is it a,
you know, is it a six wheel dump, sixyard six wheel dump?
so that a year from now, two years from now, my my successor comes along and sees a triacle parked out there, they can go to the special permit to say, "No, that that's not what the board approved."
Yeah. Yes. Well, and you know, somebody's only got the right to go out, get a new piece of equipment, and I'm not sure how, you know, the process will work, but
this is a home occupation, and in my mind, it's limited in scope,
it is.
And if it becomes u right now, Mr. Hecker works for a town of Vernon. if it if this were to become his full-time business, maybe at some point it may not be an appropriate if he grows if the business grows to the point where it's not appropriate for it doesn't fit the special permit is not appropriate for for that lot in that location.
Yeah.
And the commission can take action
at that point. I would I mean if I was making that much revenue I'd probably buy a location or offsite.
Well, and we had another one and it is in the industrial zone is on Barrett Valley. There's a a guy who has a landscaping business. I think his plan is to expand down to the tree farm to build a a place there because he is growing.
Yeah, landscapers a growing business these days.
It is. It is. Thankfully, I'm not doing a full time expanding. Probably quicker than I thought. Okay,
John, did you have any questions or comments at this point? I I don't I was looking at the the home occupation rags and and was you know had some said had some sort of nuance thought about the way that the square footage stuff is defined that it seems to talk about use of square footage of the residence rather than a square footage cap in general. and if he's, you know, all of the all of the home occupation stuff is outside the usable residence that perhaps some of the square footage caps wouldn't necessarily apply. But that's sort of an interpretation question and and I, you know, I would defer to how this commission has handled those matters in the past.
I know what he's speaking of. So, old regulations used to have, you know, 70 or 80% of your total your total square footage square footage. But in the past, I don't know, I looked back several several updates and they weren't in there. So, at some point, they got removed. I I think that might be really
I'll I'll show you specifically. I don't I and this may be a little bit off topic. If so, we can we can we can move on quickly, but I'm looking at the I'm looking at the home occupation regulations. home occupation uses. Can you see the screen?
Yes.
And there's a section in here that says not utilize more than 20% nor more than 300 square feet of the gross floor area of the dwelling, whichever is less. I just in thinking about it, I don't think that necessarily applies because he is not using the dwelling. He is building a separate structure for the use. So, so that cap would not necessarily apply to this because again, you know, he's not converting a, you know, a bedroom to a home office or something like that. He's not doing anything in the dwelling, which is which is
Well, no, I I I am one of the bedrooms is an office for two or I think it'sund and some feet.
Okay. All right. But but in in terms of the proposal right now is not is not dwelling.
That is the list of requirements, John. if we were to do it as of right.
Okay.
So,
so he's moving on to the special the special permit categories. Okay.
Yeah.
Number two.
Okay. All right. Just I just wanted to to
Nope. I wrestled that was one of them. I was able got through and figure out why it was okay. Now,
that's the one I wrestled with last night.
Yep. But I would I mean but I would I would broadly, you know, encourage the commission to consider overall impact, you know, on on the on the property and then on the neighborhood rather than devoting too much time on on the specifics of the weight of any individual piece of equipment, which is funible. And you know, so when a piece of equipment dies and and you know, the the applicant wants to replace it with something smaller, like you don't want to have them have him come back every time he swaps out a piece of equipment. So I would encourage the commission not to dwell too much in those fine details and instead just think about the the overall impact of what he's proposing to do on the neighborhood. So, so where you know I wrestle with that our regs there now is by special permit in the Andover Lake district we're allowed smaller scale business and then if you're in the industrial area or the business area you can have larger scale business and so it's not exactly clear where you draw that line there and and I think you know we're kind of close to where that line might
be. Is it is it big business? No. Is it a small business? I don't know. But but you know
I'm only making like 20,000 a year. So pretty small.
Depends on Yes. Patrick.
We already have self-limiting regulations for the Lake District on how how big the commercial vehicle could be. And this is from if you look in the in this the don't remember what section is. I couldn't pull it up, but there's already a limitation on what size and how many commercial vehicles you can have in the Lake District because this came up a long time ago with somebody that had a plumbing company and they had a plumbing truck. Now, we put the the last claiming last time I was on planning and zoning. We put it in the regs for to limit the size of the commercial vehicle depending on how much weight it can hold.
And then there's no like there's no track or trailers allowed around the lake, even storage. so that's like going to be our max is whatever that rule regulation already limits.
Okay. so if it's for storage and it's part of the homebased business, so the way I'm seeing it is part of from the economic side, economic development is as long as it's not an operational shop like doing the work on site, then it doesn't qualify as,
you know, the light industrial is just storage. but that's my interpretation.
Okay.
We'll take a look at that.
Y.
Yep. So we don't have to worry about how many or how much it weighs or I don't know if you find sorry
I think that it's a good use good idea for storage be able to maintain your business which is done elsewhere
oh I'm gonna quickly try
I'm definitely asking for an extension because there's still stuff that we need to
get on.
nothing now. No.
I live in the Lake District. I know there are some nice houses there. from my understanding, Michael's a little bit further away from the Lake District. There are some nice houses there, too. Looking at his plan, it looks pretty looks like a nice addition. Looks like an upgrade. and to clean up the street and make it Yeah. make it look nicer. I think I think it's a good idea.
Probably benefit the street.
Okay.
You don't have to do it now.
Okay. So, I guess
you want you want to say anything?
I'm all for it.
Okay. Good. so what what we'll do is we'll hold the public hearing open until next meeting and I think you know with with the changes if it's like I think you're describing we got rid of the second floor of the the garage that that should make that last one come through pretty easy.
Yeah.
Sorry. Just one last thing. I mean, he's on the edge of the Lake District. It's literally almost the last house on the
road. I got
just throwing it out there for the record.
And that is that is why it's a special permit.
So, something to consider. That's all I'm saying.
That is one of the things that we can consider when we make that decision. So,
okay. I think so 8:55 we'll we'll continue this public hearing the next meeting as well. Thank you for coming tonight and head on down the road.
Thank you very much. So 8:55 I will call the regular meeting order. and myself and Andreas we've got you seated for Scott Versan additions changes the agenda none public speak I don't think we've got anybody from the public John he eel is probably going to be here for discussion So moving on to old business planet conservation and development quality of life chapter. So John, you're up.
Okay. Thanks. yeah, so I'm I'm I'm joined by Janal. and we've been working on this chapter. this is a relatively, I think, simple and straightforward and and possibly not too controversial chapter of the the proposed plan of conservation and development. we focus and hopefully people have gotten a chance to sort of to take a look. I'm just going to sort of go through the structure of this chapter briefly. where we basically, you know, try to highlight those components of Andover that contribute to civic life and and civic quality of life and and doing the things that we need to do to keep those
elements strong and vital and and responsive. So, we we talk a little bit about the town's government and civic engagement, including the elements including the schools, the fire department, the town hall, senior senior center, library, those sort of things. just basic background some demographics and data on the schools and over elementary school and obviously RAM. we include some of the the basic school statistics you know enrollment you know eligibility for free and reduced meals, absenteeism, graduation rates, that sort of thing. you know adding a few notes about about you know the declining school populations and looking at looking at facilities. we also go through public safety, fire protection, police, emergency medical, the the the volunteer fire department and you know some of the concerns that that may go along with that in terms of coverage and and supply of volunteers. we discuss recreation, including the two the town's new community center. we talk a lot about the Hop River Trail, the the town recreation facilities. and certainly focus on the Andover Lake area and the association. we discussed a little bit about senior services including the the new senior center and this and the the facilities that that that they are ramping up. and then in the action items, it's again largely about sort of continuing, maintaining and monitoring and enhancing the existing level of services. so looking at continuing to educate residents on on and encouraging civic engagement, making sure we understand the current and projected town needs in terms of space at town hall, space at the library, space in schools, that would include, you know, potentially talking about about further regionalization, fire department coverage, and and then, you know, making sure capital
improvement plans reflect the town's needs. as well as as well as a focus on senior residents and senior services needs. that's a very brief overview. hopefully people have got a chance to sort of look through, but again it's it's nothing too particularly controversial and and we're not charting new direction. A lot of the survey responses we had, you know, had a lot of support for support for the schools, support for the senior services and senior center. And a lot of this is is a focus on basically maintaining and enhancing those those elements. so I'll be happy to take any comments on that and and or comments that you you may wish to share later via email.
Okay. Patrick, you got any comments? you know, one of the the things that draws concern is that, you know, we're our town is operating on a large volunteer basis and and some of its commission, some of its fire department, and we got to keep an eye on on the monitoring like you said. but we really should be looking into more grants if we can get them, you know, for to help us go forward because if we're Well, also the Economic Development Commission is well aware of a lot of these things. We're actively trying to find spots for senior housing and smaller homes that are more affordable and the business spaces for when they outgrow their garage. So, I mean, you know, these are all big concerns right now because we're but he addressed a lot of them, but I don't know how we're going to monitor that without how we're going to monitor the when our commissions start losing members or when the fire department doesn't show up. I don't know. I mean, that's my main concern with this.
Okay. Yeah. I My concern was we cut the down version.
That that concerns me too. Yeah. Like
wait. Do you have any comments? I have no comment. And
yeah the part in here that talks about the fields veterans memorial field and then the fields behind Andover Elementary School.
Yes. The recently awarded smalltown economic assistance program grant is putting in the playscape pickle ball courts and so on at the veterans memorial field not the field behind the school.
You're right. You're right. Yeah. yeah. Okay.
so that needs to be changed. That sent these You do mention it under the veterans. It says plans and funding were recently approved for additional playground and pickle ball codes.
Yeah. So maybe we just
we could just transpose that over there.
That one about the that sentence about the steep rail could be merged in with the sentence up above the field
because it's behind that field. the other things the schools I realize that you might have gotten some of that information from a state listing somewhere but in the last 5 years AES has grown by 25%. In 2020 AES was down to about 179 students. Now they're up to 240. So I would not want to see that in there. I'm sorry. Let me let me let me just verify where you are here.
is it page two where schools should be?
Yeah, it was somewhere in here saying that
student populations are are declining enrollment
dropping.
Yes. Okay. So, it's on the bottom of page three.
Yeah. I don't think we I don't think we quoted the numbers, but yeah, we we we said are expected to continue along trend of defining enrollment. All right. Do you you you would like us to sort of modify the way that we're exper we're discussing?
I know for a fact that elementary school has seen over 25% growth in the last five years.
Yeah. So the whole that you don't need to to look for more efficient use of the space,
right?
Using it. It's just about completely full. I mean, six years ago, they were talking about letting the seniors use one whole wig. It's now in use. They got the students, they don't have that extra space anymore. And your action item number five, consider a conversation with the other brand towns about regionalizing elementary schools. I mean there's a nice to save some cost but I really don't think that's a good action item. For one thing the ram towns are marble and over to he elementary schools they're not going to go to Marbor from here it's a hu that's that takes almost a half an hour to get all the way over there. I don't think that's a wise choice to put in there. Well, the the the middle school and the the high school kids travel that far, don't they?
They do. But elementary kids parents, I don't think I want their kids on the bus that long. And I know that it ends up in Hebrin in the middle. But even so,
do you have young children?
Yeah.
You don't wouldn't want them being on the bus as long as
it's about 45 minutes each way to Ram back from Andover. That's not too bad to get to middle school age, but for elementary that's really tough.
So, so I this language is written very softly. It was consider a conversation, but you don't even think that's worthwhile.
I
it might even be counterproductive.
Yeah. I think you know one of one of the thoughts as I was reading through this is who from the school whether it's you know the superintendent board of ed or whatever you know we we got to get their chop on that write up and you know we we came through when we were talking about demographics earlier and I worked with Valerie to make sure that and and she put on the website and you know the enrollment numbers for each of the years and and she was kind of upset with the the way that the conversation was going and rightly so and and I think that's probably it's probably an issue that is best avoided
at best. But I do think that the the a chapter on the schools, we've got to get somebody that in and ambian Well, you're not a board that you're husband. That's why I know a lot what's going on.
So, we we've got to get this can't this that chapter can't come as a surprise to them,
right? We need to have them.
Okay. Well, so we we'll we can make some edits and then obviously we'll forward it to to your recommendation to whomever on the school board or associated with the school.
Yeah. Probably just send it to the
chair is chair
send it to whoever she wants to. But
hat way you we can't be accused of slipping one by. We want their input.
Yeah.
Very well. Lean, did you have any comments on this? I can't remember if I got around and and we were done. Yeah, I thought that
no.
Okay, Andreas.
Yeah, I got a several comments. All right. Okay.
So, first thing in page one, says Andover community facilities have been wellmaintained, but several will need investment and additional space to support the town into the future. It's kind of vague. we're just kind of interested as what kind I think Patrick's on the development board, you know, what kind of investment in additional space are we talking here? and what is the the future of the town? What
did that want to try to
govern? He's he's Yeah, he's here. I mean, Andre says that's just the introductory sentence to the paragraph and then the next three paragraphs sort of break it down.
Okay. So then so then the next page for public works department
I didn't know that we had a dog.
I didn't either. So yeah, that was going to be
Do we need a dog?
I don't think we do.
And and then also No, we don't have a dog. We we do not have a dog pound. It's not active. It's there. You can see it. But
we contract with with
Yeah, we contract with somebody which
they have a centralish central place right there. So I mean if we need a dog pond here to keep dogs there when they pick them up and transfer them and
I don't think No, we don't do that. We we call this
Yeah, we have a third party dog.
Got it. And also
just so the space exists or the town has had one historically. Do we just want to get rid of the reference there? What? I
think I think that's the best thing to do is is you know we shouldn't even reference that we have a
okay
and facility.
That's fine.
Yeah. Another one is the public works department. It says it's old and inadequate for today's maintenance needs. Like what are those? Are we just this is just basic language or are we do we want to sell it out a little bit more or is that on here somewhere where it says what are the things that are not up to date to to be adequate?
Don't you write by that place every day?
I do. It's kind of ugly. I mean if you give it a paint job it might look pretty good but
I know we talked about moving it up to the dump
which cost a dollar and I know Eric
that's in a perfect world.
Yeah it's in a perfect world. It would be nice to restore the area to its natural habitat, but other than that,
you got to admit it is kind of a nicer
Yeah,
it is. It is for
especially in pride, you know, property
location. Yeah, for sure. and then middle school was heavily renovated and expanded. again, a little bit vague. Not sure what that means. the next page when we got into the whole graduation rate we're saying here that there's a decline yet or budget increases regularly to support a declining school system. That doesn't make sense. So maybe the numbers are not right or anything like that. I know I
right and then also even if you keep the same number of teachers and the same size school you're not your taxes are going to be going up or the cost is going to be going up because
inflation number one
inflation you get
and also I understand that we opened up the pre is it preschool to other towns other than
they just build a classroom if they you know have three classrooms full of Andover students and the fourth classroom they open so they can get the rest of the Andover kids in and they have five spaces or six spaces left. They'll let the other town.
Yeah. Because from what I'm understanding is that we spent a significant amount of money and admin support to support a out of town school program.
It's only a few kids. It's a classroom.
Yeah. All right. But looking at the budget perspective, I don't think something's all refinanced.
And then you see also is that they get it's self-supporting.
What does that mean?
Well, it means that the taxes that the town pays to the school, none of that money is paying for the preschool. Their teachers that the parents pay for the preschool. It's not a free program. And they also have grants that cover some of it so that it doesn't cost as much as it would be except for the people from out of town. They pay full boat,
right?
And
so that pay the teachers salaries, their insurance, their
that you know
all the things expenses for those faculty that are the teachers and that and the equipment. they've had to, you know, equip a classroom for a preschool that also did not come out of
ood out of budget.
Okay.
sure they are in the building, some electricity maybe, right? But it's not going to be, but it's not
people or the supplies for the kids. I know the Connecticut resident state trooper program, it doesn't make sense to me how we I mean, when we're talking about economic development and affordable housing, that comes with probably a little bit more crime in my, humble opinion. and right now we're paying quite a bit of money for state trooper program. doesn't make sense how the state doesn't cover the vehicle and all that stuff. I think we have to pay for all that stuff which
it's it's crazy to me and I I think it's worth looking into but maybe this is not the full
Yeah. I I think that's been looked into, you know, the seniors in the town especially.
Yeah.
Me included like that resident. I like having having a resident or any kind of police present and available and troop K will cover whatever and I talked to to him before. That's great because we need that. But
I think it's a peaceful town so far.
One year they dropped that budget and they and the people of the town meeting turned it down.
They would not vote for that budget until the state trooper was put back in. products.
So that's the people in the town voted for.
But but it's expensive and we pay we pay the overhead for that guy to go do his training and all that stuff. Just getting paid by the hour here.
No, it's quite a bit.
But that's still cheaper than having your own municipal police department.
No, understood. That's still cheaper than having a municipal
police department. Yeah.
Sure. No.
By far. So
no, that wasn't one of the options. The option was nothing. Well, I mean,
so another thing is this the path, right? The the trail.
this path is is mostly used for recreational purposes, but can also be served as an alternative commuting option. Do do people really use that to commute to work? I don't think so.
they do.
Yeah. Who how many do you have the numbers? I'd like to know because I don't think in the middle of the winter or what
one or two people or is it
you don't pay for the trailer anyway. The state maintains that. So
right and I mean the the phrasing here is it can also serve.
I think that's indisputable. I'm not sure what your your question is here. I don't understand like I know we want develop the the trail to attract more people to town and to develop the area with motel, hotels, whatever you guys want to do or or suggesting. I don't think that's realistic. I don't think it's reasonable. I think that trail is used for recreational purposes only. I don't think people travel to work. If they do, I'd like to see the data. you have none of that. and also how's that going to affect our our traffic that's already bottleneck at four or five o'clock when people coming back from work. So it's just something to think about.
But so your concern is that the rail trail traffic is going to
Absolutely. I mean if people come and we're going to attract more people and I don't know how you're going to do that. I don't think it's going to be possible to attract more people, utilize a section of the trail where other towns also have access to that trail and then people just go up and down. I think I've seen more high schoolers use it as as a running thing in a summer town, which is great, you know. but if you want to develop it and attract people in here to have make it a destination thing, it's going to require more parking. It's going to require a little bit more engineering with with traffic because we do have traffic issue. we have a bottleneck because of those lights during rush hour come back on. So, it's an issue as well
as people blowing the red light there constantly. which is a health hazard in my opinion. And then I think the last thing was I'm all for senior living. I'm all for 55 and over stuff. but it's also I don't think it's realistic that every senior will want to age out of their home and move into a 55 and over facility. I think a lot of people will prefer to staying at home if they can afford it, I think. But I'm all for housing the seniors and it's better than affordable housing in my opinion. but
I'm sorry. Is that is that is that a reference to something in the this section of the document? Say again, John. I
'm I'm missing I'm sorry. Did Andre have have is there a comment on something in the do in this section of the document
about senior services?
You're you're you're saying that additional senior housing is needed in to allow for people to age in town. Well, to bring more seniors to town. what does that mean? Don't seniors want to age in their own home? couldn't they just age in their own home? I mean, you know,
I I'm all I'm all for developing 55 and over and supporting them,
but again, you know, so
Oh, there
and I'm going to talk about this going back to the the housing chapter a little bit, but the house that I'm in takes a heck of a lot of maintenance. It's a 100-y old cottage to return into our house.
A beautiful one. You guys did a nice job. And it I'm ready to find the smaller smaller house, smaller lot, you know, newer stuff that doesn't need maintenance all the time. And I would I would love that here. And I don't think I'm the only guy. And if we could even get some more people moving into here, we build it. And we're talking about, you know, 20 to 30 units or something.
So So let me ask you this, Jed. You live in the very on the lake. have a lake house. So, you would move, let's say, the only 55 and over we have is behind that ugly facility building right there in the back of the woods.
No, that's the kind of thing I'm working for.
Exactly. So, are you looking to stay here? you know, moving into the woods. I mean, I don't know where we put these houses in or go somewhere else.
So, and again, there's there's you know, a couple of options. We've got behind the community center here. We could put in a little housing development.
Would you live there?
I would.
As close to like I got you. Okay.
I'd live over the, you know, behind the transfer station out there up against the rail trail. I think Billy
and then there's a couple of you know, places whether it's Lynhole Corners or Bath Property or whatever. you know, you know, we could we could put in something and and I kind of use my mom as a model. You know, when she she got to, you know, her mid60s, she moved in, she bought a brand new house, you know, had it built because, you know, it was all new stuff. She was tired of maintaining. she got a little bit older, you know, she lived there 10 years and then moved into a triplex which was, you know, together in in very and I thought that was a a great move for her and I think there's a lot of people that would like that, you know, that don't have to do the outside maintenance anymore. don't and and so yes, I would personally take advantage of those kind of opportunities. They're not bad and I feel bad about it and
I mean the also those 55 and over house I don't I don't think they're affordable. I think the the most I've seen I've seen them for there's a lot of money that you pay a lot of. Now we we let's transition. You know, this is going to be my comment on the on the housing chapter. And you know, when I think of what can planning and zoning do to make a difference?
And you know, we we've got that. It's section 4.14, which is land residential development for older folks.
Yeah.
And it's over 55. I think 55 pretty young.
I'm almost 50. So,
yeah. Yeah, but but the point is why wouldn't that be I and we can have some of them great 55 and older have a little community that serves purpose. That's how one of these piece of property. The other one we ought to have it for anybody can move there, you know. And when my mom moved into the triplex, it was a bunch of those things. any H juice moved in and with the with the rules for you know going from a 5,000galon community septic to 7500 you know
I mean I mean
it's like 50 bedrooms we could put on one septic tank
a lot of folks vote to 55 and over because I don't want the younger kids coming in there partying
that's fine yeah I'm I'm for both
you know but right now our regulation
requires over 55 okay
and I That's the thing that we can do to best suit the town. And it's not going to be a huge change over 55, no more kids in the school. So, you know, it's cheap to the town, but but we, you know, whether it's Yugan students, young professionals starting out to work in, we we we can do that. And that's not like putting one triplex in the middle of all the houses out on Hope Farm Road or something. It's not like we're going to build 200 units because I realistically how many people are going to stay in Andover
or in Connecticut people leave Connecticut. Well, you are an exception, but you know,
I did for for reasons that
okay
are you know kind of these are you know I mean yeah especially with this affordable housing that's one of the reasons why I moved to
I think you're confusing affordable housing with
it's still based on income
workace still based on
of it is yeah
a lot of it all of it
but anyways so yeah but that that's just just to clarify and and you know I'm all for 55 and over and helping the agent community who wants to stay in Andover, you know, it's just a slippery slope, right? You know, start developing these things and they grow into this massive things. Now we're bringing in all ages and everything else. So,
I don't think I don't think
we'll get there, but it's just something that
if we had 40 extra units in town, I think that' be great
by the dump. Great. Yeah. Sure. I mean, our family, we moved to Andover 20 years ago because we wanted to be able to build a house that my in-laws could live in with us. And the house we had in West Hartford, it was 10 ft to the property line. There was no room to expand without giving up your whole backyard.
No privacy.
So, we found a lot. We built our house with an in-law apartment on it. My in-laws stayed there for almost 10 years before my the last passed away. 6 months later, our daughter who had graduated from college moved into that apartment. She lived in the apartment until she got married. Moved out. They u had a few years. I had a house in East Hampton. And now we decided, my husband and I, that we needed to downsize. We started looking at other houses. We started looking at what it would cost to build a smaller house and it was like, "Oh my goodness." We said, "Hey, we're going to we'd like to move into the apartments. Do you want the house?" So, our daughter and son-in-law have just moved back into the house and the apartment and it's great.
Yeah.
But it was the accessory apartment kind of thing that's now allowed to be built and we had built that on a house was built. But I look I look at it from the eye of a developer and we need to be ready to go with a plan that supports them enthusiastically want to do something here
or otherwise you know
right this minute everybody in kind of happy with the way it is. You know there's
what what what are they not happy with?
No they are happy.
Yeah. I mean, my my tax is run $1,200
because my house got reassessed, right? Before I bought it for pretty penny, right?
We dumped the entire savings in there to live in a town like this.
Yeah.
So, that's why I'm on this board. That's why I'm engaged. Our taxes went up $1,200. Our mill rate did not go down.
But your property value went up also.
Okay.
That's why you got tax,
but still $1,200. That's a lot of money. so I I doubt if if it you know if it continue to grow and the taxes grow I mean tax income but for low affordable housing you know I mean you we'll talk about the next chapter here and I got some comments on that too you know people going to look at elsewhere out of state to to move because I7 $8,000 a year that used to be five five and a half a year, two years before it's a significant difference and f folks who are retiring might not want to stay here
because they're study. So, I don't know. So, it's just something to think about. I get it.
They got two kids living in the state.
Yeah.
You what?
You're a lucky one.
Two kids living in the state. One in Glastonbury, one in Barbara or one in
two high tax towns. Very high tax. I live in both. So,
I don't know that much of any town in this state that anywhere that low taxes nowadays. Well, as long as we got Democrats in power and we're going to have high exit. That's just my opinion.
Okay. We're going to keep politics.
All right. Yeah, absolutely. That's a common and observation.
My only comment on on the quality Well, I have two. I was surprised that we said, you know, when we were talking about building a new wing on the town hall that had accessible restrooms. What did we have before? inaccessible risk groups.
Yeah, they didn't comply with ADA.
What's that?
They didn't comply with ADA. That's that's what the accessible refers to.
Yeah, makes sense. And then you know and again this goes into maybe the when we we talk about agro tourism concert venues I think people move here because it's quiet tranquil and peaceful.
Yeah.
And those those words I said they must be in the last PC and no they weren't. And but when you talk about quality of life, people are here because it's quiet, tranquil, and peaceful.
So then
I second that.
That's my thought on it.
We just moved here because they had a lot that we could build on.
Okay.
We looked at a lot of different towns.
We just didn't want to be in Manchester. That's all.
Okay.
Good job on the place.
Quality. Excellent. Quality. We'll keep it that way. Okay. thank you. So, we'll we'll make some of those we'll we'll make those adjustments to that one and and share it back with this group as well as with the board event for their comments. One more one more here that just this I think was in Sunday's paper here that it was talking about many packers contribute to slow selling housing market but the median household income for a family of four varies from 96,000 in West Virginia to 160,000 in Connecticut. So that must be the Gold Coast down there ramping those averages up. But, wow, that was a lot of big number. That was certainly bigger than our median income around here. I just thought that was interesting. Huge number. Okay. Go ahead, John. Sorry. So, okay. So, the the other thing is we made some and Andreas has mentioned
that he had some some thoughts. We made some minor changes to the housing chapter based on the input from last month's meeting. there's not there was it was pretty minor stuff that we adjusted and I I at this point I'm actually not not certain. I think we just changed a little bit of of some of the language of some of the recommendations. I know Jed, you wanted to talk a little bit about 414, but I, you know, if Andre or anyone else has had additional comments on this chapter, I'd be happy to, entertain those.
Yeah. No, my discuss, you know, I've already had the discussion on 414, but I I do think that, you know, my my thought was somebody wants to come in, we'll work with them to change the, the regs and that sort of thing. And I think we need to be a little more proactive than that to to make the rigs so that we can get some of those people here. And I do like the bonus density for affordable housing. Again, the the affordable housing we're talking about here shouldn't be bringing crime with it. I I'm thinking we're talking about, you know, good folks that we would be proud to have is our neighbors. They just can't afford a house right now. I don't know how anybody that's young can buy a house anymore. Gets off the we got to help out.
Okay. So, that's so yeah, unless I and I don't want to cut off. Jed, if you want to see if any other commissioners have have thoughts on this chapter, we'd be happy to adjust now.
Patrick, do you got anything else there?
Yeah, I mean I I want everybody to keep in mind that affordable for andor. So, I mean, you know, this is it's on a sliding scale here. We're not talking about affordable for like the city I grew up in, Merida. That would be really cheap apartments, and that's not what we're talking about here. Just so put it in context.
And we're not talking about a 100 unitit 30story apartment building that could turn into something undesirable in this neck of the woods. I mean, you know, that's what I'm trying to, you know, you got to put everything in context. We have sewage limitations. We have building lot size limitations. There's all kinds of things. We're just trying to make sure that for the kind we want to we want to engineer our plan of conservation to get the kind of development we want, not the kind we don't want. See, that's that's the thing about planning for the future. If you're always focused on what you don't want, you're going to make all this stuff and it it kind of bites you in the butt. So,
you plan for what you want to get done in the future. Basically, my my interpretation.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean you guys saying that you know residents with varying income levels
right
and desires must be available. It's not a must.
Well, there's no must.
We should take that must out.
and there's nothing wrong.
I put it in.
What's that?
We must do it.
It's it's a a variety of housing tabs available at price points that can be afforded by residents with varying income levels and desires must be available. There's no I don't think it must be available.
Who who should it not be available to?
You can make it available. Just take out must. You know, we don't have to do there's no must.
Well, who said that?
My point was if we don't make it a must, we'll continue to not do it. And
because there's nothing wrong with large single family homes saturated in Andover. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion and others opinion. Yeah. Okay. We can plan on having smaller units this and that. It's not a must. It's not a bad thing that we have large single unit houses in hand over.
No, but it's not a bad thing that we put some affordable stuff in a couple of
I think it is.
I don't think so.
I think in the context of a of a plan of conservation and development, it's pretty important to have a variety of housing at different price points. especially as a young person who has multiple degrees like I work very hard and I don't think I would bring any crime to an area but it is very difficult to find housing for people who are younger and working and all different types of demographics. So I think in the context of this plan it it's important to use strong verbiage like must
you can say you can say desire. Well, if we if we desire it, it'll never happen.
Yeah.
If unless we choose to save us, you know, because step one is and it's not going to happen until somebody steps up and takes charge of a housing committee or something. You know, I want our zoning regulations to be ready for when that happens. The state may incentivize us to turn it into a must at some point. I don't know.
Yeah. veto. Thank God.
Well, we'll see how that, you know, plays out, too.
I don't know how that's going to come out yet, but I think we we need to take charge of making housing for the people that we want to have here. And some of that is those young professionals. I wouldn't mind having some Yukon students here.
Yukon. Okay. I mean, I I' I've looked at you know, I looked at houses near Yukon and I changed my mind because it was just those houses that were occupied by students were party
neighborhoods. I don't want to live in a party neighborhood. I'm sorry. That's what Lansboro turned into. Yes.
Unfortunately.
And then you talk about, you know, since 2008, very few new units have been constructed with just two permits issued in 2023. Newer homes tend to be more energy efficient and better able to withstand dam damage and effect to climate change events reducing fi financial burden on homeowners. I think this is just fluff. and so what so you know what's what's you know you guys say very few you know that's not a figure. Do do we have a figure in mind or some kind of data that that defines? Yeah. Okay. There's that shows
this.
So,
I mean, how accurate is it?
So, 50 59 59% of the units, there's your number. 59% of the units were constructed.
Yeah. In in after 70. So, that it's a comment about the aging of our current housing stock.
Okay.
But you look at at this, you know, chart on page two.
I mean, homes have to be maintained, right? That's part of being a homeowner.
Yeah.
So, Right. But as as costs increase, pe especially people on fixed income such as retirees, which is increasingly a large portion of our population, are less and less able to handle the increased costs of an aging house.
Yeah. Okay. Fair. Yeah.
I would think affordable housing is Yes. two bedroomedroom, three bedroomedroom houses that would be like 1,400 to,600 square feet smaller. Not these big fourbedroom homes that we've been building than I mean the neighborhood I live in, it's all like 2500 square ft or bigger. That whole neighborhood that was built 20 years ago, it's not an affordable neighborhood. We need to have more affordable stuff. Okay. To build the small cakes, small ranches
that we have plenty of those, too. I mean, on Bear Swamp, there's a handful of, you know, less than 2,000 square foot.
Well, I think we need more,
but it's on like a two acre lot.
It makes it more expensive. They have them clustered.
You put some things on quarter acre lots. As long as it's
There's a And over Lake District is quarter acre lot.
It is. There's your and
they're more expensive because they're on the lake,
right?
And they're older most of them.
I mean, remember is the size of the lot is also dictated by the topography and the ability to locate us locate septic.
Like my lot's 10 acres, but the buildable part of that lot is pretty small. So, Okay.
Other I'm I the audio just cut out. I don't know if everyone's done with their comments or if there's something else.
Again, Andreas, I you know, appreciate the the conversation we have because that's what fleshes out, you know, your mind. It helps me to better understand the issue.
Absolutely.
But Patrick Patrick said it perfectly. like, you know, we're going to make it affordable to hand over. I get that. Just have to be careful because there's a slippery slope, you know, and and so
I I'm not sure what the slippery slope means, but I I appreciate the comment.
Yeah. No, it it is what it means. Exactly that. You know, we open up a door and if we're not careful, things can this time can, you know, go down a hill. And it's not against anybody or anything else. You know, I was there. I was a low-inccome person. I rented a I'm from New London. I live in New London. I worked hard. I have multiple degrees. I work very hard to get to where I am. So, I want to live in a town.
Yeah.
You know, based on peace, quiet, you know, safe. That's just the key.
Yeah. Peace, love, understanding, and all that good stuff.
And anyone can do that and achieve that. So, it's just it's just got to be careful. So,
okay. But I appreciate everybody's understanding and
yeah.
All right.
Okay. So, what else you got for us, John?
You're muted.
You're on mute.
Sorry. Sorry. so, that's it for those. We'll again we'll make additional edits and I would encourage anyone if Andreas or anyone else has some additional proposed edits to either of those chapters. Please email me in the next week or so and we'll make those change and and circulate those. otherwise the next chapter I'm vamping here as I'm trying to bring up the sections. will be
I believe it's climate change.
Okay. Yep. will be climate change and resilience.
Yeah.
And that'll be for next month.
Thank you, Janelle.
Was climate change mandated?
yes. Yes. the governor's bill. but it it's it the effective date is not until after we'll finish this, but but you know, broadly speaking, the state is asking, you know, plans of conservation and development to consider natural hazards. And I would say you know, increased storm frequency and intensity would be a natural hazard, you know, linked to climate change. But, you know, so yeah, the the new legislation isn't effective yet, but you know, the the state desires on this are clear.
Yeah, I think when we headed out, you know, developing the chapters, we were ahead of the curve on recognizing we should be talking about that this little bit. So, yes, it wasn't mandated at the time, but I think it's headed that way and rightfully so.
Agreed. I I appreciate everyone's input. thank you.
Thank you, John.
Okay. based on So, I'm going to move on to new business now. We're not going to take any action on the pitch family farm. although I will probably be looking for an opportunity to I think if John Wayne and I were to sit down for an hour or so next week maybe we could hash out the agro tourism thing and and get that ready to go. I think we are close on that. it's just takes a little work. So we'll schedule that outside of this meeting here.
Have a quick question.
Yep.
We don't have a sound ordinance like most times at the 9:00 you have to have you know the sound has to whatever party or something. That's what I thought of it. I thought it was like a general kind of thing across the state. So,
I I would think that would be more of a ordinance, not a zoning regulation.
Yeah. Well, and I'm not sure, John, do towns need to follow zoning regulations? I know we had this I've had this conversation with Eric a bunch who said, "Well, we wouldn't need to do that, but we think it's smart to, so we do." So, you mean is the is the town subject the town as a as a corporate entity subject to local zoning regulations?
Right.
They are unless you specifically exempt yourself. A number of municipalities have exempted town activity, but I I don't know if
exempting the town from our regulations. He said he can do that, but he doesn't think it's a good idea. So, we don't
Yeah. Yeah. No, the town isn't because you you guys, you know, we went through all the light the light tower stuff and the signage at the park. So, yeah, the town is subject to zoning regulations,
right? So, that would include noise if if we hadn't if we had a noise regulation,
but talk about events and stuff. I could have brought it up, but bring it up when we do our deliberations. you do have to get a permit from the town to use town property for events. So I think that kind of puts
things that happen on town property as far as music is concerned. I think that kind of takes it out of zoning.
Yeah. But I think we're should we ought to be I I appreciate the the thought that we ought to be doing things the same. Whatever whatever the regulation we come up with,
the town would be smart to abide by that too.
Yeah, that's deliberative. I I I should
Okay, for deliberations.
Wayne, I would like to defer the discussion on concepts concerning zoning regulation changes. You had one. I had four and based on being quarter of 10, I don't think we should get into that right now.
I completely agree.
So, I'll move on to any any correspondence that you might have for us.
None of any. No, the answer is no.
Okay. Zoning agent report. I have nothing to report. Okay. Very good. Can I have another wetland?
Sorry. Nothing on those trailers and on bunker.
Nothing. I can I nothing? No, I have nothing to report in the public forum. Gota
inland wetland water course agent. I have nothing to report as well. John, anything from down planning perspective?
not too much. I I I am going to be participating with with Eric and some Crag folks this Thursday. there's going to be a a traffic safety analysis that's actually done on bicycle. so we're there we're we're a couple of safety experts are going to join us and we're going to bike around town and and look at problematic intersections and and some potential traffic solutions. and then I would also note that I we talked pre previously about the governor vetoing the proposed housing legislation. a number of groups including CCM, conference of municipalities, the the planners, municipal lawyers, etc. have been in conversation with the governor's office and and and legislative leadership on a proposed revised housing bill that that is going to be discussed in special session probably sooner than later. I think they'll probably call a special session in August rather than in September to give local leaders
for selectmen and boards of selectmen a little bit of cover, frankly, because it's it's still going to be controversial and they want to settle it before local election season cranks into high gear in in probably in October. So, I would look for a special session probably happening in August. Okay, sounds good. Anybody for public speak? No. Approval of the minutes of 15 June 2025. so I make a motion. Well, let's talk about are there any amendments to the minutes? You think they get any amendments? on the roll call once seating of alternates. I would just like to have the statement in there that no alternates were seated. you know, folks face to make that clear. And then down in paragraph five on the pre application conference about halfway down, it talks about natural gas substation panel farm that should have solar in there. And those
what's that? Say that again. So and I assume it's me that I have to go to it's a paragraph five where it talks about pre-application conference feuds.
Yeah.
Well center built this panel farm.
Okay.
Yeah. These will be solar panel farms going down. So his his actual proposal was for a data center with solar powering it. Right. And so I make a motion to approve the minutes as amended.
Second.
Thank you. Ann. So any other discussion? Calling for a vote. Ian
I.
Lean.
I.
Badger.
Hi.
Andreas I.
And I vote I as well. That motion passes 500. Next regularly scheduled meeting will be August 19th right here. And we'll start out with continuation of two public hearings. Hopefully no more public hearings. Hopefully no more public hearings.
Any last minute comments from anybody? If you hadn't heard Eric told it last night during the selections meeting that the police did catch the people who vandalized Andover Pizza and Andover Landscaping and possibly other places. Oh,
right.
Yeah, they broken Andover pizza had broken into at least once with smashed windows and I don't think the package store got broken into or the dance studio, but the what's now the the is it a Thai?
Yeah, Pope
Tai place was and then apparently also Andover landscaping. I hadn't heard that until they said less. He mentioned it last night. Wow. Okay. Well, thank you. Any other comments? At 950, I make a motion to adjourn.
Second.
Thank you, Leanne. All in favor say I.
Any opposed? Any abstaining? Motion passes with five zer. Paper.