we were going to start with the public hearing and then go to the regular meeting oh all right you didn't want to open the meeting first no that's that's normally not how we've done it okay apologies not a problem so the purpose of the public hearing is to discuss the application of William Genevie property located at 517 Route Six the applicant is Seeking a special permit for restoration of the Gravel Pit in accordance with section 16 of the zoning bat I'm a a little surprised last month Mr geneves asked for an extend mention to this month because he couldn't attend nor could his attorney and I see we're in the same predicament now and so Allan I guess you know it it seems to me as if we have nobody present to discuss the application I'm sure the realtor might have some information about potential sales or or something like that but as far as answering questions on the application yeah well the the the sale is certainly an important factor to be considered but you know the the gist of the public hearing is on the application and how it proposes to modify the pending remediation plan also depending on the facts you know there may be a question as to who is the proper person to be presenting the application if there is a pending I I mean I saw the email that
was circulated and there was talk of a buyer being willing to do certain things but you know if there is a pending contract for the sale of the property that calls into question who who should be the applicant you know at at the time a real estate contract is signed then you know at that point the seller almost becomes an equitable custodian of the property and the real person in interest becomes the buyer and so I I haven't I don't know whether there's a a sale for the property been signed I don't know I can I can answer that and yes it has been signed for several weeks now it's supposed to close but I don't think we're going to meet the closing day August 30th because there's a lot of nuances with the contract so it's in conjunction with the endover auto pars business next door to it okay thank you well Jim yes how on I I know I emailed you about the calendar when was the application deemed received and I know we already extended the public hearing 30 days once 30 days well I'm assuming that was the the extension I
didn't see it in the I I looked after I got your email it was accepted in June the application was accepted in June well we've we've opened we've opened the public hearing right I've went I went through the timeline today in the it was received at the June meeting which I don't recall the date right now but I counted the days were allowed 65 days to hold a public hearing and today is day 64 yeah we extended it to this this date at the request of the applicant yeah but we really don't need an extension at at this point because we are within the 65 day window well we've we've now opened the public hearing correct yes it is all right well all right well once the public hearing is open you have 35 days to close the public hearing and but that period can also be extended with the balance of the 65 days that we haven't used up yet so in my current state of ignorance about what's going on my thought would be and it's it's a suggestion that we we immediately
continue the public hearing until next month and in the meantime we need to sort out and frankly the buyer and seller have to sort out you know who's going to pursue this application if it's going to be pursued we need to look at the contract for sale for purchase to determine who the real party in interest is I mean most of the time most of the time it's the purchaser and perhaps the purchaser might be the more appropriate person to pursue the application in which case we'd have to substitute the purchaser for the for the seller now they may between the two of them they may not want to do that you know the purchaser may not want to take that on Mr genovisi might not want to let that go so at this point I got a bunch of unknowns we don't have anyone here for the current applicant who can represent him in a legal capacity so
I think under all of the circumstances J unless you see another way through this I think the proper thing to do would be to continue the hearing until next month and in the meantime we got to sort all this out so I mean I I'm fine with that and I can take that all back to bill and his attorney the buyers were wondering they do want this resolved before the sale is done and and the buyer and seller have actually been talking to each other and I talked with their agent Tammy today they are open and they did put it in writing which the zoning office has that they would be open to another option other than top soil but I understand there's regulations so they did say suggest something like a mill or something to put on the property versus two inches of top soil I don't know if that's an option or not but well
we're getting ahead of ourselves like I said we have to sort out who's going to be presenting The Proposal that you just okay I understand I hear you I'll bring that back okay Hy yeah I just wanted to to say I apologize for the confusion but I mean I hadn't heard from anybody until this afternoon and then there was a flurry of phone calls so I did you don't have to Jim no apology necessary this we we're all we're all laboring under the same disadvantage so you don't need to apologize for anything agent Hy his if you received a check for the application fee I I have not yes and I just heard this today too and I brought that back late this afternoon to Bill but he said he didn't pay it yet because he wasn't sure if he actually really needed to pay it if it
was just going to be top soil and you know that's just what he told me so I'm just bringing that back well I I will let him know that he needs to pay it yeah well again you really shouldn't be telling them anything in that regard but you know I you know you can certainly talk to your real estate client but Ju Just for just for general information the application fee is the fee that's paid to have the application go forward it has nothing to do with whether the application is going to be granted denied or anything in between so yeah if you submit an application the the application has to be accompanied by the application filing fee frankly the commission has extended quite a courtesy to Mr genovesi in proceeding this far with the application without having the fee in hand I mean they have the opt they have the option to do that but they're certainly under no obligation to do it okay understood so attorney curto would I I I heard your recommendation to continue the public hearing at the next meeting which we can certainly do my my question is should we consider that we don't have a valid application in rejected I think it's this point I I think it's this at this point it would be better for all the parties concerned to get a resolution on this one way or the other because if we if we reject the application the best thing I can see happening is someone files a new one and maybe it's Mr genovesi again or maybe it's the buyer the the problem
there or the disadvantage to that is going to kick this can further down the road which I don't think neither the buyer nor the seller nor frankly us want to have happen so I agree with that statement absolutely so I I think all things considered the best thing to do would be to have someone pay the fee and just continue I mean there's a lot of things you could do if if just speaking very hypothetically if if the application were approved in some fashion with some you know some proposal you could condition the special permit modification on the receipt of the filing fee you could also frankly you could also wave the fee in the interest of not not that not at all that I'm suggesting that you could even wave the fee I've seen it done usually it's for circumstances having to do with hardship or other things but and not this but no you have a fair amount of latitude with the fee the point is that it it should be it should be paid for this to proceed Alan if if we're on day 63 of the 65 days ofed do we not we need a request for an extension keep well no because we've opened the public hearing so we're now on a different clock we're we're now the the public hearing is open so we have that's all right that's all right Jim so we have 35 days now to close it but
we can use the balance of the 65 day total extension to extend the public hearing but we're not there yet got it okay well certainly it's disappointing to me to walk into the start of the public hearing with all this information that's been available for several weeks now and being the first that we've heard about it but given that I do intend to continue the public hearing until our next meeting and the commission needs to have some time to understand the facts of the matter that we don't have coming into the meeting tonight before we can have a successful continuation of the public hearing it it's just disappointing I know agent Hy has been trying to get information on what is going on and he has been unsuccessful and it seems like there's a lot of stuff out there that we should have known about yeah and to that I would only add that it's certainly not not on on Jim that the the information is not available to us because I know he's been trying and I also and I'll also add that that Jim Jim did the the posting of the sign and the mailing of a butter letters none of which he was obligated to do but at my suggestion just to keep everything proper he took on
those extra activities too so I I think I think he should be given credit for that and I think it should be known that he's done those things to try to move this thing along time Mr Fitch you cut out if you were trying to say something yeah I mean I don't know if it's public comment but I mean I'm sure it did cost a postal stamp to send these out and it seems like you've guys gotten blown off a few times now Okay so so at this point and Allan I don't think that I'm required to go through public comments or any of that stuff because we didn't no no you can you can open you can open the public hearing and immediately continue it you don't have to you don't have to proceed with any particular portion of it so at time 7:18 we will continue the public hearing at our next meeting and oh before you do that Jed yep hold on one second Simone are you still here yes I am listening to it all okay great let me ask you this while I got you sure the there is a pending contract for
the sale of the property yes it it may be necessary to review that to sort out these issues of who should be the applicant now yeah I wrote that down I'm going to take that back yeah I don't know I don't know how the buyer and or the seller feel about disclosure of this contract I will ask them about that as well I mean I I mean it could come into this as an exhibit but then it's open to the public it's not just open to the commission right sometimes people are sensitive about that sort of thing yeah I that go ahead no no I I I know exactly what
you're saying I agree with that I'd have to get obviously their input on both of them we did have initial conversations today because I honestly just found out about this public hearing tonight and I advise my client that somebody should attend and why I'm here and we already talked about that but anyways I'm GNA take all this back get him to pay the fee and the discussion I had today with the buyer agent early discussions and we wanted to learn more from tonight so is that they're going to want this resolved before we close so right now I think that the applicant based off that discussion will still be Bill Jes but I'm going to take it back
and you know that may or may not change but for now they they were their stance was to get it resolved before we close yeah and understand for for what I said before this is all this is all fact evidence you're giving me and and nothing further by way of advocacy on top of the buyer on behalf of the buyer because I or the seller because I haven't heard you say anything the in the manner of ADV advocacy so we're all good okay okay sorry Jed nope so the date of the next meeting is September 17th and the public hearing will be continued prior to the start of the regular meeting at 7 o'clock on the 17th okay Jed did you want me to stick around for the rest of the meeting not necessary at this point Allan but please put the 17th on your calendar for next month yeah you know I may I may be out of town that day I it's it's setting off an alarm Bell in my head I may have to find someone from my firm to stand in for me but that shouldn't be a problem because we have a very deep bench as you know yes yeah I I'll I'll keep informed about that okay thank you Ellen you're
welcome I'm going to drop off but I appreciate you guys listening to me and I'm gonna take it all back okay all right thanks hope I wasn't hope I wasn't too hard on you no no I completely understand thank you take care bye bye bye all right guys I'll night good night take care okay it is time 7:22 and I will call the regular meeting of the Andover Planning and Zoning commission to rder first up is a roll call and seating of alternates and I saw an CR present Scott Leanne Hutchinson and myself I see two alternates an Marie dagel and Susan England and if my memory serves me correct next up in the rotation is Susan because Ian Marie had been a alternate recently so Susan I'm going to sit you for the vacant position on the commission there five members in the commission five three so there's one next up our additions and changes to the agenda and I have none does anybody else have any additions or changes to the agenda that we need to make I do item 8B is to it says on the agenda to receive application I would have lik to have said U to set public hearing as well that's for the soccer field fail fail soccer field so you have an
application yes I do when did you get that got the application today and I did receive a I picked up a check this evening at the fields so I do have that check Jim I am going to say that we need no well okay I got it so under additions or changes the EV agenda I make a motion that under new business 8B for the soccer club we add the words and set public hearing looking for a second to the motion I second that thank you Susan any discussion okay I'll call for a vote an I go hi Leanne hi Susan I and I vote I as well the motion passes 50000 okay item four public comment limited to items not on the evening's agenda nybody from the public have any comments before we start okay hearing none I'll move on to item five which is old business shoot Jim I I guess it's a a good thing the public hearing went the way it did I see we didn't put the Gravel Pit no no I I sent you an email to that effect but I decided not to mention it see okay well point you you did good anyhow first up on is the discussion of the plan of conservation and development and I'm going to turn that over to John okay thanks Jed good evening everyone the I've distributed I believe last week for people's review a draft of a PowerPoint presentation that we would propose to go through at a public information session to basically catch the public up to where we are in our current our
current process as well as letting people know what exactly a plan of conservation and development is what it's for and what what is going into it and as part of that we would go over three main sections of progress to date first being the basic demographic section that that we reviewed on this commission probably six or seven months ago just you know housing demographics population demographics aging income jobs and then going through the tentative results of or the results to date of the public input survey of which we have currently received let's see over 230 responses which I think is pretty good so we would go over that data and then the last thing would be to talk through the vision statement that we' worked on for a couple of months as well as as how the vision statement breaks down into the the sections of the plan that we will be writing basically from the point of the public information session forward so essentially it's to get people up to up
to speed on the plan itself what it's for and where we are in the process I'm happy to buzz through you've seen a lot of the stuff before because we did the demographic section and we went through the results of the survey when we had I don't know maybe 150 responses or so and and the response you know Tendencies haven't haven't changed that much but I I did send it out so people could get a sense of of what we were proposing to present so I'll I'll stop there I can I can share briefly the the PowerPoint if you'd like but but hopefully people got a chance to take a look and I'd be happy to talk through any any comments or questions people had I would like to go through it John it you know certainly we don't need to to take a lot of time on the vision statement in in the the last couple things that we spent in depth at at the last meeting but as I went through I had several comments and and that sort of thing before you start though I would like to point out that in the agenda it said we were looking September 21st is the tenative date as I recall when we looked at the calendars that was really September 12th right Thursday the 12th not not Saturday the 21st yes so anyhow please proceed okay all right so as I as I stated again we're gonna sort of review the three major components thus far the demographics survey and results survey results and and the vision statement talking a little bit about again catching people up to speed because this is ideally a a generic Town public audience not not made up of of
Commissioners like yourself necessarily that just talks a little bit about what the plan of conservation and development is coming from a state statutory mandate and and then some of the items that are required to be considered public health Recreation Social Services affordable housing cluster development Energy Efficiency and that sort of thing to kind of go through the the the quick checkbox of items to consider talk about why it's it's important because it can be used in a number of ways particularly and something this is something that we've done in the relatively recent past reviewing of Municipal improvements to make sure that the town is making Investments or divestments that that are advancing the goals of the planet conservation and development and in that similar way to support Grant applications and to basically support attempts to to implement the recommendations of the plan both in in you know state and federal funding particularly those funds frequently follow plans looking at zoning regulation amendments which again should represent an implementation and a and a philosophical harmony with the goals of the plan of conservation and development so for inance
if you're looking to increase housing density in a certain area of town the zoning the zoning changes should should reflect that as well and then basically being kind of like the philosophical statement of of where are we headed and how are we intending to get there so present in a little bit more detail to the public that and then talking a little bit about how aside from that broad guidance about what a plan is supposed to be municipalities have broad latitude to come up with the plan and and and Define their own process so I just sort of want to explain how Andover is doing that this time leading leading through the committee of the whole Planning and Zoning is didn't did not set up a separate ad hoc committee or anything like that it's being done in this group again with support from myself with support from Eric looking at where we've come from the 2015 plan how we've changed as a as a as a a community comparing contrasting with what the where the
state is heading and where the capital region is heading and then and then some of the nitty-gritty of what we're actually doing again the community survey taking a look at the town's existing plans whether that's the the the town's investment the major investments plan you know open space plan the the affordable housing plan and then the the part that will sort of follow the public information session which is those in-depth discussions with stakeholder groups not only Town staff folks from you know public works like Jim you know land use staff like Jim as well as folks from conservation and open space groups Land Trust hop River and then Economic Development and other and other commissions to have those sort of in-depth conversations about the the specific topics at hand and then going through the the demographics that we reviewed and I'll I'll buzz through this very quickly talking through population where we where we are from an ethnic an ethnic breakdown you know again unsurprising the the great majority nearly 90% of the town is non-hispanic white with sort of a scattering of of various other ethnic groups and then also comparing and over
with the with Connecticut as a whole talking a little bit about where our population is going not only historically over the last 10 years shrinking a little bit and again the numbers are relatively small we've you know lost maybe 150 population over over 10 years and then and then where it's projected again and and and focusing on the fact that this is not written in stone and a lot can change particularly even when the population projections were done we want to reinforce that the population projections were done somewhere between 2015 and 2020 and you know at the time those were done let's say 2017 2018 obviously no one saw covid coming and no one saw you know the different different housing Trends necessarily so the the population Trends
aren't certainly locked in locked in stone and and and can evolve on that one John yes you know one of the things that I wrestled with you we were coming through all this stuff is how s how bigger problem is the declining population Trend or maybe not at all but one of the things that I think is really key that I'd like some thought on how to highlight you have the 2023 population there of 3160 and so you know over the course of the last three years the population has not gone down at all it's either stayed the same or gone up just a little bit and and that really you know is counter to the what's you know a fairly significant drop off in calculation that the projections go so I think that's a big deal that you know we're not going down right this minute I think that's great news yeah and I think I think you know and and again as I said that could be well you know number one that could be just that the projections miscalculated and and these are small numbers because they were it wasn't projected to drop off significant L but that also could be a reflection of Co
you know of people sticking around or or you know sticking around Andover when they might otherwise have have moved some people moving into Andover because of you know the the perception of of crowding in in larger cities yeah I mean it could it could be a variety of those factors but you know again in it with relatively small numbers these small factors can make a make a difference well that that you know small number sort of took that off my concern chart you know that was that was a big concern to me and I'm saying maybe not we we too early to declare Doom and Gloom and I think that you know that was great good point I we I'll we
certainly highlight that looking a little bit at the demographics again noting that even more so so that you can see the the population Trends the demographic Trends is that and over like much of Connecticut is aging and and as you see the the darker lines the the the the higher bars seem to be migrating to the right so so Andover seems to be Aging in place which is which is a common thing to Connecticut however it being common doesn't necessarily mean that it's not an issue and we don't need to Grapple with it it certainly it's c certainly is something to Grapple with as as more and more of our population as a percentage is is aging into the senior cohorts well and on that slide I think it's worth highlighting the fact that you know the under five years is actually starting to increase a little bit you know is probably twice the amount that we've got in the five to nine years and so yeah it it certainly says something about what the future Elementary School and eventually you know I don't know if that trend's going to continue but the elementary school population's not going to be
going down anytime soon going so I I thought that was a good news piece Eric would probably disagree with me because he John John I have a question to 45 to 54 yeah your classes 18% of the population 45 to 54 did I read that oh yeah but yeah that's there's something wrong there because the number above it is 12% yeah yeah and that that number above it should be more like 20 if the bar is accurate yeah let me that's thank you let me let me verify what that should be well it's it's so total residents you're you're just over 600 so that yeah that is about 20% so that yeah that I think probably 21 instead of 12 it's probably just invert maybe okay looking at the graph off to the right of it all right could be 21 yeah okay yep it is from an an affordability standpoint certainly it does see if the the trends we're seeing now in Pre K hold we're in for an incredible tax rise in the town because education drives are overall cost so do what you can to convince people not to have children just smaller vibrant households okay so then going on
again household size and over household size has actually been remarkable stable and I think that that reflects the sort of good good family Town nature of Andover is is you know population household size is declining generally speaking and particularly in Connecticut as a whole but Andover has been remarkably stable but household sizes do tend to be relatively small if you combine one and two person households you're looking at over 60% you know getting on two-thirds of the population lives in one or two person households so that's that's a that's a way in which you could see population stagnation or even even slight decline but no real demand loss in terms of housing units largely because we have smaller you know we we there's a there's a smaller number of people in the same amount of households so that's something to to certainly look out for and and plan for as as people are looking to to downsize so John you just said you said smaller number of people in the same number of households and I agree the number of houses in Handover has stayed about the same over the last 20 years there hasn't been a lot of building but if the population's gone down over the last 20 years I don't know how that 2.64 number can stay the same it it's yeah and I think I I I what I really meant to refer to is is sort of the the overall Trends we've seen in Connecticut not necessarily andover's very specific condition but still if our population's gone down and the number of houses have
stayed the same yeah well then then that number that means that average number would change yeah and again we haven't seen that that that's but that was just a that was a American Community survey number from four years ago now now yeah I not to not to dis discredit that but yeah it's that's your math is correct Jen okay okay I'll think about that because you know when we go yeah talk to the public about the presentation I would like to at least have made sense to me before we get there sure and I'm I yeah I think I'm I'm kind of free associating from some of these these data points and not necessarily focusing it entirely on Andover I was that one I was kind of referring to a a larger the larger Statewide trend of of reducing household size numbers so I'll I'll make a note to to focus on the on the Andover numbers more specifically median household income again Andover doing relatively well even even relative to our cohort in talin County solid ,000 average household income over the state average I'm sorry State median and then the the chart in the lower the map in the lower left is an immigration out migration for employment so there there the number of jobs in Andover is relatively small there's there's only about 350 jobs that was part of the survey in Andover the great majority of those jobs are filled by people coming into Andover and most of the people of working age in Andover are leaving the town for
for employment over 1500 are leaving so only as the time that that survey which I believe was a 2020 only only about 70 people were both living and working in Andover it's basically Eric and 68 of his closest friends in my in a comment on the the median household income I know when we did our affordable housing presentation I think I thought the median came in at 108 and that could have been from year 2022 or something you know yeah that could have been and it's also it also yeah it it draws from a couple of different sources and some of the medians are drawn from certain household sizes so you know they they take a a two and a half person household versus versus the the you know the total income and total number of households so it you have to make sure that you're doing an Apples to Apples but but yeah this is that's taken from this is taken from HUD I believe the 2020 number yep and and again low low very low unemployment in and over although very low very low employment numbers period but but the jobs in endover are generally filled so after after looking at some of the demographics we we wanted to talk about seeking public input and so I threw up our the ad that was in the River East encouraging people to to participate in the online survey which was on Survey Monkey we also had a number of hard
copies available at Town Hall and at the senior center and the library and so we've got the over 230 responses the the survey is still open there is still time to to fill it out but at this point we we haven't had any any real earthquakes of of new directions that that participants have have determined most most folks live in Andover as we saw with the with the immigration out migration map living in Andover work elsewhere or living in Andover and are retired those are the the the by far the plurality of participants in the survey we have we talked about Economic Development priorities the in this case the the the longer bands represent a higher priority so more retail along Route Six was the highest priority along with restaurants and medical services or services and medical offices on Route 6 were the three most popular responses followed by small and homebased businesses visitor based businesses at growing existing small businesses the the least popular was no major changes I think everyone most everyone recognized that there was opportunity for growth and I think particularly along Route Six hey two
comments on that John and you know the words at the top say priorities from one being the top priority to seven being the lowest so with those words up there I would almost think that the most that most people thought that the highest priority was no changes in business right so yeah when when the data is displayed and I can explain this I can well I can either take out the I I put the questions in there because that was that as the questions actually appeared on the survey y but when we did the data View we we in inverted the calculation so that that the longer bars would would represent the most more popular answers and and the the second comment would be I had the misconception that more businesses were going to be an economic boom for Handover and I think you know other people probably thought that too and when Eric described how little tax benefit you know the average taxpayer got from having the Dollar General out there I I was quite surprised so if if the people in the town think that our tax bills going to go down because we get a couple of restaurants or something U that's that's not going to be the case you know we're gonna we're going to increase the tax revenue by getting more housing in hand
over yeah I that's that I think that's a really worthwhile point and this is something that I know I know Eric has some of the the numbers at his fingertips on I don't know if this is jet during the actual presentation if you want to pause and kind of have that discussion here I mean we certainly didn't include any fiscal indications in the in the question itself the question itself was really meant to be kind of like what's what's missing you know where what should we be growing you know not really any tax implications but I it's that's a very good point to make to you know indicate that you know a couple of retail destinations or a couple of restaurants is not going to be a a tax Panacea yep just my comment and and my dialogue with you is primarily so that I better understand what what it is
that we're going through sure so I can help explain it right I mean I guess my takeaway and and I looked at that pretty extensive ly because you know everybody said to me you know you need all this Economic Development you need businesses and to make a you know a a 10% decrease in town taxes means something like $35 Generals in the town of Ando it's a really big number you know or $40 Generals in the town of Andover or 45 gas stations I I mean that there are some industries by virtue of what they have for equipment can provide a reasonably big boost for a small footprint but at the same time the state
of Connecticut has given a manufacturing tax break that reduces a lot of the things that traditionally would have you know been able to generate a lot of tax Revenue so you're left with things that are essentially kind of really unpopular that would make a big difference like you know the infusion station would have made a noticeable difference in town tax hugely unpopular a trash to energy plant would make a huge dent in town taxation incredibly unpopular so so we're not getting out of that without kind of a major transformation of the town and thinking that we're going to do something significant to lower residential taxes the only real way to lower residential taxes is provide residents less service and you got to make your decision you know where you want to fall on that Spectrum I think one of the things that that we can try to educate the public on is that with the little bit of tax help we certainly don't want to jeopardize the the pastorial views that you have driving down Route 6 through and over to put up a bunch of economic development in the hopes that it's going to lower the taxes I would never want to lose you know those Farms we have out on Route Six and I think it's just a very beautiful view for people as you're driving through the town okay so yeah I mean there's there's there's obviously a lot of the tradeoffs to consider tax revenues and and Community views and that sort of thing going through further more of the survey looking at housing opportunities housing options again this is for whom are housing options needed most and and the most popular
answers are we seniors and downsizers and and particularly young families a relatively small minority less than 25% stated that we don't really need more housing so I do think there is a recognition in town that some more housing options are needed and and I think accurately reflects the the demographics and the the Aging of the population so so the question I have for the commission is what kind of housing do we think is most appropriate for the young families yeah and we we get into this a little bit in the next question yep and and so that leads into the next question I know but you know far and away we all like single family houses and is that
going to get the young families here and I think again if we built the small houses like used to build you know the young professionals that probably be in the duplexes or or something like that but Chad can I make a comment say again can I make a comment Who's Who is Andreas yeah go ahead Andreas yeah so I think you know my wife is a real estate attorney and we you know I've noticed that small houses are a lot more desirable for families young families especially for affordability reasons and for a sense of a little bit of privacy right duplex says you're right I work at Pratt Whitney most of the Millennials and genz going into apartment complexes so on so forth as as a person with two young second you know two young kids second one on the way we chose Andover and moved here into a single family house because of the privacy and the quiet quiet and the and the country setting of this town that's what we looking for that's what we looked for that's what we were searching for and I think a a lot of young families are are in the same boat people people want to invest they they want duplexes you
know that's like New Britain kind of thing you know and I think for the retirees a small lot small house small maintenance yes small tax that's what I would be looking for 50 and over so anyhow I I think the the data on the slide points to the answer for us okay and so yeah as as Jen said the the by far the most popular answers were single family which is obviously the the established character of the town established history of settlement and then adding single family with accessory apartments and then to a lesser extent town houses and duplexes you know obviously people didn't not perceive and over as a as a community very different from what it is already so you know three family four Family Apartments and
that sort of thing was not was not as as popular then we started asking some questions also about Community resilience and sustainability similar to the way we asked about new businesses in town where again the top priorities on this are inverted to reflect the longer bars and so of the of the resilience and sustainability items upgrading the town's roads Bridges culverts to reflect you know increased storm frequency and intensity similar to the ones that we saw out in Western Connecticut this week was the most popular answer and the rest were kind of clustered around kind of kind of Middle Ground upgrading power and data infrastructures making sure our our road network is friendly to the bikes and pedestrians were common although certainly not not as popular as as the the key is of our bridges and Roads and culverts and then talking about natural resources in a very similar way asking people to rank their priorities again longer bars are higher priorities for more respondents focusing on Trails that you know connecting different areas of town and different communities was the most popular followed you know by Andover Lake water quality stewardship and management of existing Open Spaces as opposed to acquiring more as well as investing in active Recreation slightly fewer people wanted to invest in more open space for Passive Forest Farms and then fewer still said upgrading The Hop River Trail itself but the the fewest people said you know we're we're all set in terms of our open space and and natural resources most people believe that more could be done more could be could be invested we then grabbed a question from the longrange planning
study that was done a couple of years ago back what I'm sorry 2018 Eric correct correct so where several several key Investments were were listed developing a town center establishing a Main Street actively marketing undeveloped rout six commercial districts Investments to make 316 more bike ped friendly and Less on acquiring new open space and and more on stewardship and maintenance of existing Open Spaces by far and again this was this was weighted from a strongly agree to a strongly disagree one through five weighted and and by easily the most popular top priority strongly agree was Route Six Corridor undeveloped commercial property where nearly 40% strongly agreed with that and and combining strongly and agreeing that was nearly 70% or 65% if my math is right on that was by by sort of by far the the most common and the rest kind of fell into the middle range I'm sorry I have a question yes on that last one yeah what was the on the
far right they weighted average what did that mean so if you so in that case if you give a strongly agree a one and agree a two and then you know three four five it would then then it you know kind of spreads out that way so if the average is people are saying neither agree nor disagree it would be a three and so the the the weighted average anything less than three is generally supported and so the numbers that are closer to two or one are are the are the most most strongly agreed if that makes sense okay thank you so so in this way I highlighted the lowest number because that represented the strongest agreement okay this one we sort of took a look at the the categories of services that the town currently provides Public Schools Senior Services General government parks and wreck Public Works and a transfer station and you know not not to say any of these is unimportant but generally speaking where do people's priorities lie in terms of where they want to see their their their tax money being used and public schools were the the plurality and again the longer bars present more answers it was interesting maybe not shocking that most of the handwritten responses which is to say the ones that were at the Town Hall library and Senior Center were very very strongly weighted towards senior services and and much less weighted towards the the public schools which I think unsurprisingly reflects the demographics of the people filling out surveys in in long hand rather than on on the computers but but by and large there was a lot of support for the public
schools and Public Works particularly with the rest sort of falling falling in the middle John can I make a comment on that real quick sure I I'll I'll defer to the chairman but that's fine with me oh go ahead Andress okay so you know I looked at the survey and I'm looking at the public schools Ram's got a good reput reputation and over needs a little bit of help but the reason why I wouldn't put Endo with schools as number one is because because it's they're in pretty good shape so I think that it's being managed properly so I would look at other things like senior services and maybe maintenance as a something that's a little bit more important than public schools in my opinion that's an interesting take that that it's essentially you feel like it's kind of in a good spot kind of taken care of RAM is is that's interesting yeah and I think that's I I'll be honest that's not necessarily how I intended the phrasing of it but I think that's an interesting that's an interesting Insight yeah thank you then we looked at some issues large number of issues that that represented perhaps threats in the future climate change changing demographics aging infrastructure loss of plate loss of sense of character pandemic economic growth and so on and again from the sort of the one to
five most you know very concerned to not concerned at all with that weighted average and again the if you look at the column on the on the right the lowest numbers represent the most agreement or in this case the most concern so we had easily aging infrastructure was the most common real concern where people were very or somewhat concerned that's a number under two which is unusual in surveys like this and then affordability of living in Andover was also a very popular response with with you know strong majority saying that they were very or somewhat concerned so I think you know a the the the the population itself is aging and the infrastructure around us is aging and and both of those
things deserve a little bit of attention I'll stop there right now CH Chad would can I U make make another comment I'm sorry to be this person I'm just an analytical person but you know when you're looking at the agent infrastructure and you're looking at the affordability of living that goes kind of hand inand right if you're saying we have a population of of retirees that of course they're going to be concerned with affordability right versus somebody like me I I think endover has some of the lowest taxes around so I'm you know for me it's not really a concern because it's it's affordable for a young professional myself but somebody who's who's retired I would think that you know that would be concerned especially as Retirement is you know cost of living is is going up in inflation and so on so I think that's a that's an excellent point and we we'll actually get in a couple of slides to the the demographics of people filling out the survey so you can you can kind of see the the the span of responses yeah and and the waiting towards towards senior responses frankly I'm sorry Jed were you as we started out you know we we discussed how Handover has an aging population it is older you know than than the state average and and the older than most other towns
in Connecticut and those people out of fixed income they are are being you know concerned with with the taxes because you know Social Security is supposed to go up what less than 3% this year and yeah inflation is 17 so yeah so well so anyhow the the the seniors are concerned about the affordability here and it and it is a big deal for him so I just leave it at that okay and then I'll go we we add had two open-ended responses which is one is what is something you will hope you hope will happen in and over the next 10 years and I did a a word cloud the larger words are the more prevalent I'm trying to find a better way to to to depict this because it you know it catches words like Town or simple words like you know and over right Andover senior housing and and that that doesn't I'm trying to figure out a better way to do this without listing 200 something responses but so I may I may update this but you know issues of of taxes and over Plaza we have you know properties Plaza and over Plaza if you kind of combine some of these words businesses you know where it says root a lot of those are roote six and some people did the number some people did the the word so word cloud is imperfect but it was trying to capture
some ideas here well on that there were you know there were a lot of fragments and phrases that didn't make additional that didn't make sense to me like new additional or families will continue right will continue move so now if I just focused on the things that were a little more purple you know you've got endover school business and seniors M Community I don't know I share your concern that that that didn't really hit the nail on the head for what we were looking for and and when when we get done here we'll spend a couple minutes with the commission trying to find out you know what what are the big priorities you we've made a lot of progress we've got the senior community centers done now I think Eric's contivity program is got momentum behind it that's going in the right direction I've got some thoughts on where are we falling a little bit short in where we need to hope for but it didn't show up on this chart so yeah if if the punchline is different than what this picture shows we've got to figure figure out how to tell the story right yeah I I'll I'll I'll I'll spend a little time going through the actual open-end responses and see if there's a there's a better way to to depict so a similar issue with when we ask things that people are worried about over the next 10 years and if you look at so we have you know words that stand out crime taxes Elementary School businesses you know I think they do reflect some issues and we have you know we have property taxes we
have increasing taxes live tax increase so you know I think this one maybe slightly better reflects but there there's there may be a better way of depicting this so well and even on this one you you you said crime jumped out a little bit if you go back to the slides on the what are the priorities or concerns or whatever where you had a bunch of stuff crime was the lowest of the bunch yeah right but but you know it's I think it's it's still on people's minds even though they they they might not have ranked it as high as some of the other things yeah yeah John how many responses were there to the these two good question I I think it was about 2third participation where people actually filled something in so my my my rough estimate is is around 160 but but I'm I I can check those numbers I thought than that I was surprised how many answers we got but yeah so how many duplicates were were there there were there were very few verbatim duplicates and that's part of the problem with that was part of the problem with with the word cloud is is it fails to capture something that's essentially a an identical sentiment that might use
slightly different words and so because the the the word cloud just just treats words as as shapes you know it doesn't think of them as ideas so yeah how many of them are exactly the same I I I'm not I'm not sure I will note that it didn't I don't think it ended up on here a number of and it maybe just because of the spelling and and the the syntax but you know probably our most surprising frequently cited word for worried about was is roundabout or or rotary I was GNA make a comment on that that surprised that didn't pop in there because I know Diane was out beating the drum pretty hard on roundabouts yeah we we we did get a a remarkable number of similarly minded alarmists let's say of of the of the roundabout the roundabout scorge I think you had one particular resident that's been beating the drum
about that I'm not so sure that's such a ground swell of opinion it may just been everyone everyone else sitting at that right right person getting everybody wound up yeah hey everybody at my table could you write in roundabouts please so I wasn't gonna make a humorous comment on that John but you brought it up so sorry about yeah and if it if it helps any I just had a meeting this afternoon in columia where we will hopefully take some of the roundabout heat off of you because the town manager and I were going to be pushing for one at the at the route 6 Route 66 interchange so hopefully we'll we'll shift the shift the do's eyes over over
Eastward okay and then and then to round out the survey we just asked a couple of the demographics questions the the age age of respondents it basically you know it it split it was it was basically you know adults we only had a few young adults 18 to 29 and then relatively evenly split with slightly more in the 45 to 60 and 60 to 69 demographics but you know if you combine basically your 60 plus that was by far you know it depends on how you slice it but that was by far the the the largest group was 60 plus and relatively well to do I think which reflects the the overall demographics in and over but also you know sort of wellestablished property owners you know if you combine basically over 100,000 you're you're looking at the majority more than 50% of your of your respondent population was was making over 100 and again reflecting and overs demographic nearly nearly all homeowners or you know with or without a mortgage very very few renters participating but very very few renters in and over period so we'll go go through that and I think I'll try to I'll can work on cleaning up the the wordcloud presentation a little bit and then we go into the actual vision statement I would plan to and and the Planning and Zoning commission we've we've gone through this for a couple of months so I won't read through but we'll I I at that presentation I will read through the vision statement because I think it's important to hear out loud
and including the the six we envision sentences that kind of break out the specific topic areas again you know quality of life affordable housing conservation Economic Development complete streets and climate change becoming the six thematic Keys which then we will get into in terms of chapter breakdown and then I would introduce this as again taking the the the quality of life we envision statement and breaking that down into several of the of the topics schools housing Recreation government and so on that will form essentially the the the skeleton the the major bones of the plan itself and then again breaking down these these six statements and then and and basically talking about so that this is where we are we have our vision statement we have our our structure and now it's going to be a series of conversations to get into the meat of those topics and and start to build a list of goals and priority actions in each of those areas and then we'd leave it to an open an open comment opportunity so that's perhaps less brief than I had intended but that's the a brief overview of the of the presentation and as Jud said the the target if if it works with everyone is Thursday evening the 12th of September and I'll turn it back over to you J okay so any comments in general from any of
the commission members you know is it ready to go to the public are there things that don't reflect how we we think that we should be headed I think we did a great job job on the we envision we really kicked that around for hours yep we did I think that I think that I hope I'm hoping for a for a a good a good reception to some of that especially after sort of reading it out loud because I think it has some impact there I the only so when when I go through all this the only thing that that strikes me is we're not headed in the
right direction on is the housing you know that's where I think our emphasis needs to be going forward you know parks and Rex we got a big project going for the recreation Fields over there now upgrading that Community Senior Center done the the connectivity you know big strides going forward and that it's going to take a while but I think you know we need some some smaller low maintenance housing for people to to make it more affordable than what the big houses are right now feel the same way Jad I think we really need to push that think it almost needs to like bring be brought to the selectman every month I know you don't want to hear there Eric but it's a really big deal that has to be pushed okay so you should bring it to the selectman every month Well we I'm I'm just I'm just throwing it out there you know the that's that's something that could be done so just so it we keep it moving in some way I'm not sure how but anybody on the commission doesn't think that's that's where our Focus needs to be and I'm you know I want to hear if that's what you think you you really kind of have to Define what are your goals for the housing because I don't think necessarily my goals and my Approach for that line up with what the commission thinks I mean my goal would be to push very small housing units and push zoning availability and push Ada units strongly in town and is that really what you want I mean what do you in and the the secondary question is is the town willing to actually support it because the reality is you cannot build
affordable housing in the state of Connecticut without subsidies it just doesn't work you know I mean Jim and I sat down with a builder that's looking at developing potentially a spot on Bunker Hill Road you know he's a man after my own heart his interest is building you know energy efficient buildings but he was very UPF front that you know he's looked at it a bunch of times and said can he build small starter homes and his answer is no in today's climate that's just not you cannot build that at a profit in today's market so really what do you want I mean and how do you wanna how do you want to try to subsidize it what is it that you want you know not easy question I'm not saying I got all the answers right those are
those are questions I think that me and Jed were talking about that maybe John John could you know put some emphasis on yeah and and the you know and I think I think we'll when we get into that and again those those are going those are discussions that are going to happen in the the meetings in which we sort of cover those individual topics but the answer is is I think often going to be you know not all of the above but many of the above there's not a silver bullet you know we're not going to build little tiny you know tiny Cottage cluster communities around Andover and you know walk away and say job done it's going to be a number of things and it's going to be you know maybe some some tax incentives on certain types of housing maybe some regulatory changes to encourage different types of housing you know in engaging Town Town land it's there's going to be five six seven different things that that are going to combine to address the issue it's not it's not going to be a single thing I guess I guess the other comment I have before we leave this topic is how do we advertise it you know we're essentially just over three weeks away from doing this and that that time's going to go by pretty fast I know
Eric you've been successful at getting crowds to show up at at your town meetings that's because they're mad what's that that's because they're mad yes well we yeah we can we need to figure out how to tick some people off between now and then yep put put afford affordable housing in but yeah we had talked about that that would not affordable housing low income housing low income housing take people off that would get everybody to show up it would be nice to have a little ad in the River East John kind of like we did with the survey and I know we we used the Town communication system to advertise it pretty good too so so that would be good would be nice have some people show up Jed make a flyer for it we'll use the Community alert system we'll put it on the town social media we'll put something in the River East but you got to develop the flyer for what you know what it is you want to tell them and then turn it over to Kate and she can she can get that out there you could also consider since you're the chair of the commission having a conversation giving Mike sinowitz of the River East a call and ask them whether they would be willing to do a quick story on it and you know especially if you gave him a press release and made it as easy as possible for him to publish something because they're pretty pretty lazy so if you give them content they'll publish it
not I'm not saying that in a bad way I'm just saying e you make it of them the more likely it is you are to get what you want okay let me let me think about that a little bit and we'll go from there so yeah J if there's if there's stuff that you want me to generate the the flyer or whatever just yeah hit me with a couple of the of the key points to to to focus on okay I will happy to do it that'll be my next project for my position as a senior I think that even putting something about increased affordable housing even though if it's not lwi income housing but you say affordable I think you'll get more people that way too because we're looking for something that we can afford yep and then the other thing I wanted
to say was the town alert system I thought that was going to be used for the opening of the senior community center we never got anything so I don't know if that went out to everybody or if that wasn't used then well you need to check your registration because I certainly got it yeah I think I did too I didn't get it in okay well then my suggestion is that you may be on the emergency alert list but not on the regular Communications alert list okay maybe all right we'll check okay well good job John putting that together and I hope we get some people to come come and actually see it that would be good so next up on the agenda is
old business property at P 70 Pine Ridge Drive gym I'll turn that over to you for a little update talking yes background of this is was a two lot subdivision at the end of Pine Ridge Drive actually with one of the Lots had entrance on Old Farms took quite a while to get through the regulatory process involved the wetlands Crossing two houses were to be were proposed and one is substantially built and some problems arose and were brought to my attention specifically the the house that was built was deviated from the approved plan in that it it was largely the more land was was cleared and the the house was cited a little bit differently and the the drainage outlet for the roof leaders was placed diff in a different location than had originally been approved what is continues to be a problem right now is there was a considerable amount of fill that was placed off site on the post property and became became a big issue and I've been working with Joe Wagner the wetlands agent on the ens controls there was some blowout on it Hill seems to be contained and the outlet for the drainage was moved back onto the the applicant property that the house being built but there was a lot of concern about the deviation from the from the plan and obviously the offsite fill I don't
really have an approximation of that that amount it's two two areas that were basically cleared and filled one on the hillside and one sloping off as well towards towards the post both of them towards the post and I was asked to put this on the agenda because of concerns over the fact that it differed the actual construction differed from the approval and and the Fallout from it so I'm going over my mind Jim on on what what is the next step for action on that particular situation well I mean there Joe is is handling the wetlands opponent he is aware that he's going to have to [Music] move to to regrade to to move Phil and I'm going to need a some sort of plan for that and Joe as Wetlands agent will that that will involve work in the the Upland review area so that will involve the white agent if not the the commission so would we expect a modification to the approved plan to come back before the commission similarly to what we're working on with the Gravel Pit I don't I personally thought that they fell under sort of just field [Music] adjustments is my
opinion I don't see where it would would be coming back to the commission okay I guess so we we had mentioned we would have further conversation on that but yeah I thought you know and and again what what I need to get myself smart M on is apparently there can be a little bit of a difference between the plan that gets approved by the Planning and Zoning commission and the plan that gets approved by the building official and what actually happens and in this particular case I thought the Delta was pretty excessive yeah and in in a manner similar to the Gravel Pit I don't think it's good for the town to have the to set the standard where it's okay to not follow the plan and I I'm concerned that that's what we're seeing I've seen it on smaller extents a lot of different places but these two were really egregious and and I think we need to make sure that we're setting the standard that the town ought to have or else we'll continue to deal with these kinds of problems and understood and and I'm I don't feel like spending my time that way so anyhow that's probably it on
where we are with Pine Ridge tonight and more to follow on that at the next meeting any other questions or comments for Jim on that okay moving on to the next item on the agenda which is the filling of the Planning and Zoning commission vacancy and to Pat Andreas and Don thank thank you very much for for showing interest in the commission you know previous to right now I've never had more people interested than I've had openings so right this minute the commission has the The Dilemma that we can only choose one of you because that's all the openings we have right now good position to be in but when people want to volunteer and help out their Town I'd like toh give each of you that opportunity and unfortunately I can't the term that the successful applicant would be filling expires next November you know when when Steve Nelson resigned for his personal reasons here couple of months back that's when his term expired we've got a couple other people so so the whoever gets appointed tonight will be up for election again if you were to choose to continue on until further in the election next November it's fair to note that the there are some training requirements for the Planning and Zoning commission they're not very big I think the minimum requirement is four and a half hours of training every other year you the state thinks that people on the Planning and Zoning commission ought to know a little bit about it and I think that's a good idea too and I've
done all the courses and and I think they've been very helpful most most of the training requirements every two years the Connecticut Bar Association holds a training session in March on a Saturday it goes from maybe 9: in the morning till 4 in the afternoon covers everything you need to do to meet the requirements and I thought that those training sessions were very good I I think I've attended three of them now and so they're very helpful the way the way the selection process is going to work and and there were a couple of different ways that I could
have done that but we need a motion for the commission to go into executive session which is essentially a closed hearing so it won't be recorded and onto record and other members of the public won't be there and we'll invite the the candidates in one at a time and the in order that no candidate has the advantage of listening to the other guy answer whatever questions or give his little Spiel on why he wants to be on the Planning and Zoning commission and that sort of thing je can I can I way in here for a second yeah go ahead Jim Don Denley was here with me in my office on the zoom meeting had to leave it a few minutes ago a few minutes back indicated he'd be he had another engagement indicated he'd be happy to meet with commission U at any future time if if if the position is not filled
this evening okay very so anyhow there'll be two of you that one at a time we'll bring you in and it be Patrick's first because you had your application your letter of interest first and Andreas you'll come in second after after that and John will help you get into the little breakout room that the commission goes into so that we can have that private conversation so okay so Jed let me let's be clear here I'm going to pause the recording right now we should still be recording okay sorry that motion yep yep so and then we'll come after we've we've talked about the two applicants we'll come out of session go back into the regular meeting which is just like we just did with the recording thing and any action we take has to be taken in the public regular meeting so we we won't take action out in the executive session we'll we'll do that back in the meeting so as soon as we get done and it won't take very long we'll we'll vote on the
applicant D did go ahead lean yeah did you say that we do or don't continue recording once we get into executive session we will stop recording we we not in executive session yet I need to make a motion and the commission needs to agree to go into executive session before we can and to Just J just to be clear we I when we do this is it are you just inviting the Commissioners themselves is Eric invited is Jim invited am I invited and and who's being left out so that that will be in the motion I need to specify who's going to attend and and it will include you John Eric and Jim as long as Don is no longer with him there if Don was using Jim's computer we we would not allow him into the execu session but we'll cover that in the motion I have that written out ready to go but that's how that's how I think the process is going to work did you have another question Leanne no okay very good so do the candidates Pat and Andreas any questions before we get started there no questions okay very good so I make a motion to enter executive session discuss personnel interested in filling the vacancy created by the resignation of Steve Nelson for the term expiring in November 2025 Personnel invited into the executive session include all commission members down administrator Town planner zoning enforcement officers and each of the interested parties one at a time I'll second that okay that was you Scott yep okay okay thank you Scott any discussion on the motion just to note the time it's 8:38 okay yep and in when we go to Executive session we will note the time
on there too yes thank you lean any other discussion so I'm sorry oh you go ahead and vote first yeah okay hearing none I'll call for a vot Ann hi Scott hi Leanne hi Susan hi and I vote I as well the motion passes 500 and an Marie even though you're not Seated on the commission tonight you are part of the commission and will be able to attend the executive session okay so I'm I'm pausing the recording now sorry Everybody by that little miracle that I was talking about on getting Zoom to work caught up to me for saying that and I I dropped off and and had to come back yet so apologize for the delay the host has asked you to start your video that was me Chad we'd like to see you oh okay very good yep sorry sorry about that got everything goofed up there but I see Andreas I'm looking for Patrick there he is okay so we got both of you guys here thank you both for showing an interest in the Planning and Zoning commission you know we all thought both of you were were Superior candidates and as we said at the onset breaks my heart that we
can only pick one but we can only pick one and and so with that I would invite the commission to make a motion to select somebody okay I nominate Patrick DY for the open position on Planning and Zoning commission I'll second with that thank you Scott any any discussion hearing none I I will call for a vote an hi Scott hi Leanne hi Susan I I vote I as well the motion passes 500 and before you go away Andreas we we thought you're right up everything was just Superior we'd be pleased to have you Patrick you know one of the things that that we talked about was when I I joined the commission I came in as an alterate learned a lot about how it worked for a year or so before I became a regular a commission member and I thought that was very
beneficial to me I'm hoping that when we have another opening either on the commission or for an alternate or the election comes and you put your name in the Hat for a position that would you would choose to do so you would be absolutely a welcome addition to the commission we just felt that with Patrick's previous experience previous working with several of the people here and the fact that it was right on on the commission how could we let that Talent get away from us again and so we did and no hard feelings it's all good makes me want to resign right now to make a spot for you Andreas really would but but that wouldn't be not going to do that either so so that's that Patrick thank you for your interest we welcome you back to the Planning and Zoning commission and I I expect that that working relationship that you had in the past will will continue on into the future thank you very much business request for authorization of minor revision to site plan for 90 lak Road Dollar you while we're waiting for Jim to unmute himself Patrick I would seat you
right now but you have to get sworn in by Carol yes sir and so we can't do that but that's all right I should probably I'll attend the rest of the meeting so I make sure I'm up to speed anyway very good thank you yeah you're very welcome thank you okay I received a request from Dollar Tree to add a at along the the route six facade towards the the West end of the building and there's no real provision in the regulations that allow me to to Grant minor revisions and it was suggested that I come before the commission for to seek authorization to sign off on that what can you repeat that again we missed that what they asked for propane a propane rack so it's propane [Music] tanks so it's a swap out swap out yeah it's not loading it's and I'm sorry Jim it's it's basically just a it's a portable cage thing it's not a it's not a permanent structure no it's not okay I I wasn't sure whether bring it to the commission or not quite honestly I just Jim and I talked about this a little bit and I'm gonna read from our egulations on enforcement says the commission may by resolution permit the zoning enforcement officer to authorize minor non-substantial deviations from the approved special exemption special permits so when when Jim didn't know whether to
bring it to the commission or not I I knew that we had the the power to make it so that he could handle that I think it is a minor revision and and so I will make a motion to permit the zoning enforcement officer to authorize minor unsubstantial deviations from the approved special permit for the Dollar General store in case of prop think yeah that was a second from you an yes okay any discussion on that motion it it's just it's gas tanks propane tanks yeah propane tanks what size propane tanks the standard size I don't know the exact amount 20 pound 20 gallon whatever
you know you get on your barbecue grill oh they're going to be selling them yeah well they'll be it's a swap bring in your empty one and you take home a full one no Eric has his hand up Mr chairman oh Eric I didn't know whether you wanted other comments on this what I would say is that I have no real objection to that has have you consulted with the fire marshall number one because that seems kind of appropriate since you're storing flammable liquids there secondly does it interfere with the sidewalk in that location and does it reduce it past the three foot width you would require for handicapped accessibility that would be my second question and then if you decide those things are satisfied you want to go ahead and give him permission to do it I would ask that you suggest to him that you condition the approval on this of of rectifying one of the things that they did after they got site plan approval and a CO which was put an ice machine smack in the middle of what was designated for cycle parking because they made that completely unusable for bike parking because the only place to like lock your bike up blocks the ice machine and since our regulations require that applicants put in cycling
parking you should probably insist on that if you're going to grant them something extra and now I'll get off my Soap Box thanks for that [Music] consideration to answer your questions I did not I realized as it came up this evening that I should have checked with the fire marshall I did not I'd be happy to do so it it will not impede on the sidewalk traffic flow and I actually had brought up the issue they have a banner sign as well that I was going to ask be eliminated prior to moving forward with with the propane tank swap up I agree with Eric that moving the ice machines ought to be done as well so there going to be a place for the ice machine got to be a place better than right next to the bike rack I'll take a look at it with em but you're Jim so you're amendable to the suggestions that Eric provided there yeah I just I mean I know whether you're comfortable making a motion with the having the Fire Marshall approv continued upon Fire Marshall approval whether you'd like to see actual the Fire Marshall weigh in it's your call well I would like to see the Fire Marshall weigh in but I don't think it needs to change you know we're we're turning the matter over to you and I expect that you would okay do do all those things that should be done all the above yep okay thank you any other comments on on this particular issue and so I do think that the discussion we had warranted bringing it
before the commission because those were some good things to talk about but with I have a question of John if I if I may John when you asked the question about you question whether it was portable were you implying that maybe maybe it shouldn't have come to site plan wouldn't impact the site plan is that the way I took that or I mean just just trying to understand you know the extent of the proposed change it's not it's really not a structural change to the site plan right it's an an impertinent you know item that can be moved this way and that so it's it's not it's not it's not like they're bumping out the building it's it's a you know yeah portable cage I mean I asked because I respect your opinion I just was curious if yeah no I'm just I was just wondering if if the if even the
request is applicable because it's not actually structural right I got it that that's why I POS the question thanks any other comments so if they if they come if they have to change something on the outside do they have to come to the commission or to Jim to add or take away from what's going on in the facade of that place yeah I think it really depends on how you define sort of the the the core elements of the site plan you know so you know obviously if the building is getting bigger or the parking lot is rearranging and the the driveway is going to a different place those are fundamental changes to a site plan right you know this this is you know something important that could you know
block the function of the building as Kevin I'm sorry as Eric pointed out that you know could block sidewalk so and if it's meant to be there for a longterm thing then then it functionally becomes part of the site but so for instance if a if if a tree dies and he wants to replant it or you know offset a tree five feet from where it shows on the site plan that's not something that you would necessarily force him to come back for so it's it's kind of a a judgment call on what's a significant modification of the site plan and what's not but if it I think it if if it affects the function of the the land use it should probably given some consideration so even though it's you know it's it's essentially temporary it's not it's not a physical part of the building and it's probably only going to
be out there seasonal during grilling weather probably you know April through October or something like that it you know it it could affect the function of the of the of the land use so I think you know Jim is his instincts are right to to bring it bring it to you right right and they have to have the same the correct amount of sidewalk area also on top of that correct yeah there there's a minimum minimum width the sidewalk and that'll be maintained yeah and again yeah that's the the minimum width because but again you know the state had allowed outdoor display you know during covid we
allowed you know restaurants to have have meals outside and and and Retail to do outdoor display that outdoor display allowance has continued so you can you know with with you know temporary clothing racks or whatever can block some of the the sidewalk but you wouldn't you know on a temporary basis but you wouldn't want to do it you know in a way that that obstructs all all flow so again it's it's kind of a a temporary versus permanent comments okay so again just for review the the motion is to allow Jim to authorize if appropriate the the installation of the propane cage and and handle that without further input
than what he's already got from the commission and that's your motion ched no I had the better motion earlier on that was just to summarize it so you remembered I think Marina will have she'll she'll record it from the first motion to get it into the minutes if you want I can read the first I can read the particular words right out of the the zoning RS again and rather than discuss it I just will so I make a motion to permit the zoning enforcement officer to authorize minor non-substantial deviations from the approved special permit for Dollar General in the case of a propane cage
U that's it and I can't remember I think it was an that seconded yeah so that's the motion that's on the table that's a good motion okay so with that I'll call for a vote an i Scott hi Leanne I Susan I I vote I as well motion passes 500 Z next up is 8B receive application from Veil soccer club and set public hearing Jim okay I did receive an application today I have a substantially completed checklist with that I do not have site plans as of yet I did receive a check and I hope to be working with the sakur folks to to complete those PL to to draw up those plans to complete the application and this specifically is is for lighting on the soccerfield on Riverside Drive Long Hill Road okay and you'll get that posted here soon so we can all take a look at it yes I will is it fairly straightforward application that we should hold a public hearing next meeting yes time timing is an issue for them it kind of they kind of let it go a little bit I think in my opinion you know they' like to be able to light the field for for practices yeah at night I'd like to have reviewed the application before we came to the meeting today too but right there you go they had all summer they had all summer oh I know and I know you've been pinging
on them Jim so it's not like they came up as a surprise but and I told them a long time ago yep I know you've been working with them as well Scott so but be that as it may in an effort to to have to support the veil soccer club and with that support the town of Andover because I guess they they do provide a little income for us I'll make a motion that we hold a public Hearing in conjunction with our next meeting on I think it's September 17th second okay thank you an it was Leanne this time Leanne okay thank you Leanne any discussion Jim I could be wrong but I think Veil is v a l e it is you're correct I I put that on the agenda
before I had the application it's vla VA correct discussion hearing none I'll call for a vote an i Scott I Leanne hi Susan hi I vote I as well motion passes 500 next up is the approval of the minutes from the public hearing and the regular meeting conducted on July 16 2024 and did anybody have any comments on the meeting minutes let's GNA do both of them together because they're all on one sheet of paper did somebody was going to make a comment Leanne yes Leanne I think it's I'm looking at it I'm trying to look at it now I think it's maybe 6B there's just an apostrophe that's in the wrong place it's the word applicants yep hearing none I'll make a motion to approve the public hearing minutes and the regular meeting minutes from the Planning and Zoning Commission on Tuesday July 16 2024 amended paragraph 6B second line where we put the apostrophe in the right place on the word applicants second that thank you an any other comments or discussion hearing none I'll call for vote an i Scott hi Leanne hi Susan I abstain because I
wasn't there okay and I vote I as well the motion passes 40 one was Susan England abstaining and just for everybody's information certainly you do not have to abstain because you weren't at the meeting if you read the minutes and and we're we're comfortable that there was nothing sticking out like a sore thumb but certainly abstaining is is a good path to either options acceptable next up is correspondence Jim anything there none okay coming on to administrative reports oh you put me first this time well we didn't have a Inland Wetlands meeting so I've got nothing to report I look forward to the next meeting where we have a discussion on the the Pine Ridge subdivision and I'll let you know how that goes over there but that's it for me Jim you're up okay I had was on vacation for a few weeks so I have an abbreviated time period here to to report on there are a number of properties that are for sale that have generated a lot of a lot of question a lot of inquiries a lot of a lot of interest including a number of well one home on the lake and another another property somebody's looking to do a tear down and and I just wanted to point this out because it's interesting that Andover lake is Andover is now a becoming a tear down Lake I don't think there's been that many in the last few years just seems to be a little seems to be a few more I've also let's see had brought 38 Lakes sided compliance on a blight ordinance it get a complaint on wood chips at the church which they just sort of appeared over at the end of the
parking lot a lot of a lot of w chips not and that they're really on the edge of a a flood plane in wetlands area and I referred the matter to to Joe Wagner who contacted the church and was assured that would be taken care of so I feel comfortable about hat that's pretty much all I have but I'd be happy to entertain any questions do you is it appropriate for you to share with us the address on the lake because I walk around Lake and I have not seen any for sale signs up okay one of them is five Sunset okay the other was 268 which I think has sold it was recently purchased and now it's now they're interested in tear down I
think I'm meeting with them meeting with the representatives on Thursday 268 I think it sold a few months ago 268 or 368 I have 268 268 okay yeah I am familiar with that house now it sold the the family inherited it from the parents so it had a probably title transfer but okay he could solve that very easily Jed just right into the zoning regulations the maximum house size don't allow anybody to build a house bigger than 750 square feet you're done no more MC manions the lot isn't much bigger than that so so I guess that'll come to pass as well it can't be very big because A lot's not any other questions for Jim okay John in interest of time I think most of my report was covered in the in the PowerPoint presentation another discussion yeah nothing nothing further for me at this time I have a question for John what was the a talk that you had with a a builder where where on Bunker Hill you said that was with myself that was Eric and I okay yeah that was not me sorry where so who who was that Eric a
builder I don't know the guy's name that's not relevant to me the property was on Punker Hill this I don't know the what partial was it it's the one the the guy that used to own Midstate excavation the Zimmerman property it's property guy name property with the house The Farmhouse and 37 acres of land Joey Zimmerman yeah yeah yeah sorry I couldn't think of his last name I only hired him a couple times but I'm old you're being elusive no I just have a terrible any other questions for John in the interest of time yeah I didn't I didn't know the guy's name either yeah okay next up is commission discussion or miscellaneous and I've got nothing for that one anybody J yes Leanne I have a question about what you just said a few minutes ago to Susan about abstaining from the minutes yep I've heard that said before fairly recently and I've always thought that people are supposed to abstain unless they listened to the public I mean not the not just public hearing there might not even have been a public hearing but
listen to the recording because and this this you may be right it may be the law or or Robert's Rules or something my point is that unless you done that I I've seen and I've seen people do what you just said if you think that it's probably accurate or the person taking the minutes always does a good job or something but my concern again whether it's a real thing or not is that the person really doesn't know what ranspired and I think that's what Susan was saying she can't attest to what happened so she abstained which is what most people do sometimes people will vote anyway I understand that I just I do think that if somebody like you mentioned has routinely attended the meetings looked at the the minutes reviewed the the video of it I would have no problem with that person and it's just you know how comfortable that person is on whether or not they're in a position to vote it it's not improper to vote on the minutes it's all also proper to obstain so I just wanted yes to let everybody know that that option was available if I if I could there there there is a distinction between voting on minutes and voting on applications if you haven't familiarized yourself with the record and the recording you certainly
shouldn't if you miss a meeting you shouldn't vote on an application if you've missed some of it and didn't familiarize but minutes are sort of a different issue it's a little bit of a lower bar I see it because it it really in my experience never used to be done that way in other words certainly somebody would say for the record if you if they missed a meeting somebody would put themselves on the record saying I listened to the recording these days you can see many things on YouTube so again I just my point is that to be safe unless somebody's done that you really don't know that what you're what you're voting on is what actually happened true yeah it's my opinion I agree I like to be safe nope I absolutely I just wanted to point out
that if you felt that you understood the issues that were going on and had done your homework like a lot of people do when they miss a meeting I know Leanne you always watch those things when you're not here and and if you if you chose to vote I would be absolutely comfortable with that but that's I know I'm still waiting for the board of selectman meeting from eight days ago the minutes aren't even up yet that's not our issue but that's just an example of something else I'm trying to watch yeah okay very good and I think most people would normally abstain it's just easier but but would be okay to do it the other way any other commission discussion on any other topics hearing none we'll move on to public comment and I guess the only one from the public here is you Patrick h on hey here I am Y no anything for us tonight before you leave nope okay I just asked that I be invited to the rest of the meetings until I get officially on board and well I'm going to go swearing on next available chance but let me know you got till the 17th of September okay I don't want to overstep and jump in until I'm official so yep I got you and and thank you for your willingness to serve we look forward to having you on the commission thank you very much and looking forward to serve thank you next meeting date and venue so the next meeting is going to be public hearing at 7 o'clock we'll try to do two public hearings there and then followed by a regular meeting and the venue if I can pull it
off will be a hybrid meeting where we meet in the new senior center community center and I'm going to try and see if we can set up in that little Lounge area I think that's big enough for a commission meeting the Acoustics might be a little better and I think by the 17th we would be in a pretty good shape to pull that off where would the public be the public would be in that little room too I think it's big enough for now oh the public thing on the 12th of September well no I mean if you're going to have a hybrid meeting you have to make accommodations for the public how many people can you really
seat in there well I'll I'll go check it out that I don't expect many from the public to be there but you never can tell yep so we'll check I I know there was a bit of a reverse Echo with all the people in the the big room when we had the open house and trying to make the Acoustics good who will let you know okay next up is thanks for making it a hybrid meeting say again Leanne thanks for for planning to make it a hybrid meeting yep well I think youo John unless significant pressure were put to attendant person will always choose to be remote as well and I think that's reasonable as well as our attorneys I'll I'll be there in person for the public information session on 12 yep anything else with that I'll make a motion to
adjourn second that thank you an any discussion no call for a vote an i Scott I Leanne I Susan I can I vote I as well motion passes 500 and I appreciate everybody attendance and participation tonight little longer than normal next month might be a little longer than normal too we'll see how it goes but thank you everybody good night okay